How a maker defined success his own way

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[00:00] SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Canada's podcast.
[00:05] SPEAKER_01: Hi, this is Celine Williams hosting for Monterey of for Canada's podcast. My guest today is Josh title.
[00:11] SPEAKER_01: The CEO and founder of the Canadian Sustainable Children's Toy brand Kate and Levi and that's Kate with the C welcome Josh.
[00:19] SPEAKER_02: Thank you. Thanks for having me.
[00:20] SPEAKER_01: Absolutely. It's a pleasure. I'm excited to I don't often get to talk to people who work with and play with toys all the time. So I'm excited about this.
[00:28] SPEAKER_01: But before we jump into that, I'm going to I'm curious how about your journey to get to running creating, founding a toy brand, let alone a sustainable toy brand. How did that come about?
[00:43] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, for sure.
[00:44] SPEAKER_02: The truth is I've always been drawn to to being an entrepreneur. I I have always had a creative inkling actually growing up.
[01:00] SPEAKER_02: My mom was always very creative and had different crafts going whether it was knitting or needle point or she went through like a calligraphy phase.
[01:09] SPEAKER_02: And my dad was always a small business owner.
[01:14] SPEAKER_02: He used to import textiles from the Far East for women's clothing manufacturers in Canada. So that was sort of my experience growing up and I feel and I always sort of felt like I was sort of a mixture of the two.
[01:28] SPEAKER_02: So my mom's creativity and my dad's business acumen and I really I really never applied it until finishing when I finished college I actually went traveling to Australia New Zealand and I found this really cool leather backgammon set.
[01:49] SPEAKER_02: And I was like, I'm not sure what I was going to do next or what I was going to do for my career, but I showed it to a friend of mine who was also had the entrepreneurial bug.
[02:03] SPEAKER_02: And without pausing he just said, all right, let's make it and sell it. So we you know we with this one sort of travel backgammon set.
[02:10] SPEAKER_02: We started we started manufacturing and ultimately turned that into a successful small business.
[02:19] SPEAKER_02: And fast forward seven or eight years and we sold it took some took some time off I took some time off and then teamed up with a designer who was making children's products.
[02:33] SPEAKER_02: So she was actually making products out of recycled wool sweaters.
[02:40] SPEAKER_02: However, I did sort of I did sort of jump over another interesting part of my journey, which was while while I was starting my first business, I also for whatever reason wrote the LSAT and applied to law school and didn't really have much of a plan other than I had really supportive parents who always encouraged more and more education.
[03:08] SPEAKER_02: So I applied to I applied to law school when I started my first business and I got in and and I remember talking to my parents about it and saying, you know, I was starting this business, but I also just got into law school.
[03:21] SPEAKER_02: What should I do and like there was no in their mind there was no question like you get in your going. So I didn't really again, I didn't give it too much thought I just went.
[03:33] SPEAKER_02: And luckily I had a business partner who was not going to law school and was able to work on the day to day of the business, but I you know, but I stayed involved throughout that time and was able to was able to do both so pretty interesting journey.
[03:51] SPEAKER_02: So how those fascinating so how I have a few questions, but I want to ask about I'm going to assume that you are not currently practicing law as well as I am not currently practicing law so basically I did three years of law school University of Windsor and then and then I did my one year of article in at a business law firm in downtown Toronto, but it was funny because I was going to do a lot of things.
[04:20] SPEAKER_02: So I was going to do a lot of things because my manufacturing was also downtown, but west of west of the financial district more in the garment district.
[04:28] SPEAKER_02: So there were days when I was articleing where I would need to go over to my manufacturing facility.
[04:35] SPEAKER_02: So I would literally, you know, take my suit jacket off, leave it on the back of my chair, leave a hot cup of coffee on my desk and sort of run over to bathers and add a light to you know to do something in relation to my.
[04:49] SPEAKER_02: So I would just go to my own company and then you know and then you know run back to the law firm to you know to resume my duties there so that went on for the 10 or 11 months that I was articleing but then by the time I finished articleing my first company was at us sustainable enough size that I made the decision to leave law and pursue that full time.
[05:14] SPEAKER_01: Got it so that so it's really interesting when.
[05:22] SPEAKER_01: People studies when someone studies something has a degree in something like law that most you know I think there's a general perception that if you study law if you study medicine if you see certain things and you're off that's your passion and you're going to pursue that for the rest of time and that's the thing that you do.
[05:40] SPEAKER_01: And I think it's really interesting when people study something like that and make a very specific choice to not pursue that and I imagine it's come to come in handy because all of the things that we learn come in handy at a certain point in time but you know having the ups and downs and the realities of being an entrepreneur because they are real and I imagine that you have experience them as well.
[06:08] SPEAKER_01: Have have there what's kept you in the entrepreneur world what's been the inspiration to keep doing that instead of going you know what I have a lot of agree I could go figure out being a lawyer if I want to at some point.
[06:21] SPEAKER_02: Yeah listen it's an interesting question and there's certainly been times throughout you know I've now run two business built and run operated two companies and there's definitely been nights in in in both businesses where I'm sort of lying awake.
[06:40] SPEAKER_02: Thinking about what it is that I'm doing and why I'm doing it and did I choose the more difficult path why don't I just have a normal job and career like like I could with the with the degree that I have but I guess at the end of the day it's like I don't know that I chose to be an entrepreneur I think it's just who I am.
[07:03] SPEAKER_02: And even at the low points where things aren't necessarily going my way for whatever reason I have enough staying power to sort of wait it out for the next for the next wave to catch so yeah I mean I think at this point I'm probably passed the point of going back although I don't know who was only a few years ago that I was thinking like okay maybe it's time to do something a little bit more.
[07:35] SPEAKER_02: Mainstream I mean there's definitely aspects I don't know if I if I were to go back to law and it's not really in my mind anymore but if I were to go back to that I'm thinking about it like I don't know that I would be drawn to even business law like part of law that I was always most intrigued about was criminal.
[07:52] SPEAKER_02: So would I would I try to stage a third career and go back and be defense counsel I don't know I mean I would never say never but it's not it's I'm not there right now.
[08:06] SPEAKER_01: Yeah that's that's fair.
[08:09] SPEAKER_01: You know you mentioned some of the low those nights when the look at the low points I'm curious what have been some of the hardest moments of being an entrepreneur.
[08:21] SPEAKER_01: And what have been some of the best moments for you.
[08:26] SPEAKER_02: For sure I mean listen what I was younger and building my first business called Tiger Enterprises with a good buddy of mine.
[08:35] SPEAKER_02: Like that sort of a period of time where it's like you don't even looking back it's like I couldn't even appreciate how amazing it was at the time just because I hadn't been through it before but like being a young person with not a lot of responsibility and the ability to.
[08:51] SPEAKER_02: I really take take risk with with not a lot of you know with not a lot of downside like that's a really special time in terms of in terms of you know low point like that would you know that's probably as good as it gets and having said that though it's like I then sold it had some time off and got to do it again knowing now what I didn't know then so it's like also like a really interesting.
[09:21] Speaker UNKNOWN: So I'm just going to be able to do it again and I'm going to be able to do it again and do it again and I'm going to be able to do it again and I'm going to be able to do it again and do it again and do it again but it's with a different energy level and maybe a little bit more cynicism then when you're younger and you don't realize how difficult it is.
[09:36] SPEAKER_02: But I would say like starting again after selling the first business was really hard.
[09:42] SPEAKER_02: But I would say the low points don't listen the low points always come back to for me it always comes back to sales and I would say like in the last five years the really hard part was when the pandemic hit mostly for catally vibe we were mostly a wholesale model so we were selling to brick and mortar stores and within weeks everyone shut their doors and the business was essentially a lot more.
[10:12] SPEAKER_02: So it's like my current business partner and I you know we're having these discussions like how much longer like we can't keep we can't keep paying the overhead if everyone's closed and that's sort of where the next opportunity emerged so it's like okay well brick and mortar isn't working what is oh yeah we set up this really we set up this Amazon account a few years ago that we haven't really focused on.
[10:42] SPEAKER_02: This is probably the time to dig in a little there and sure enough it's like Amazon exploded we were there already luckily not strategically but we'd already built out our shop and started pushing it during the you know at the beginning of the pandemic and sure enough like Amazon kept the lights on and as now become the biggest part of the world.
[11:12] SPEAKER_02: So it's interesting right it was like a really dark period but our new and best channel emerged from that so yeah like really really lucky and you know really interesting time.
[11:35] SPEAKER_01: It's so spoken to a few entrepreneurs in the past couple of years who had some sort of whether it was an in person business like events or something or we're dealing with brick and mortar whether they were brick and mortar or they were making something that was sold through brick and mortar and all of that changed dramatically to I mean they either you know ended that business in the past.
[12:02] SPEAKER_01: So it's like a really good thing to do is to start something new or they had to change their model in some way and I'm you know I want to acknowledge I think it's incredible that you had that Amazon storefront already built out even though you weren't using it that you had done that.
[12:15] SPEAKER_01: Lucky yeah but how was what were I mean I it's kind of cliche to say this but what were some of the lessons that you learned in that change that stand out for you that you think this was important to note or this or it would be helpful for someone else at some point.
[12:45] SPEAKER_01: To be aware of or think about these things.
[12:50] SPEAKER_02: Yeah listen I think as an entrepreneur you just have to be open to being uncomfortable into pivoting and I think that's you know if you're if you can't if you're not able to sort of live through the uncomfortable periods then you should choose a different career.
[13:14] SPEAKER_02: But if you're open to being uncomfortable and to you know just sort of going going with you know just sort of watching the waves and waiting for the next one usually there's another opportunity but you have to be you have to be open to it so.
[13:34] SPEAKER_02: You know we could have just shut the business at the beginning of covid and been done with it and then had you know gone on to have more stable and normal careers but we didn't and you know luckily we didn't because it worked you know it worked out again but we were uncomfortable for a while and you have to be you have to be open to that.
[13:55] SPEAKER_01: I think we so you know humans in general not just entrepreneurs I think entrepreneurs often less so than other folks in more traditional roles and we want to we we avoid we want to minimize discomfort in any way shape or form whether we're avoiding it or not we want to minimize it so those uncomfortable moments come and it immediately becomes how do we.
[14:21] SPEAKER_01: We get comfortable again as opposed to what you're talking about which is stay in the discomfort i'm not saying long term but enough to figure out what the wave is or to figure out what's coming or to try something new that we might not you know that that in and of itself is another layer of discomfort for sure.
[14:47] SPEAKER_00: Yeah all the all the above so in moment so.
[14:57] SPEAKER_01: In some of the waves that have come in both of your businesses and Kaden Levi especially with the pandemic how.
[15:05] SPEAKER_01: I think that one of the things that I hear from entrepreneurs a lot is how do you know like how long do you wait it out what do you what's the.
[15:16] SPEAKER_01: You know do we wait out until we have no money left and then declare bankrupt like how do you know and i'm curious from your experience how did you know what were you looking for what are signs that you were paying attention to what are some of the things that.
[15:30] SPEAKER_01: You were looking at or keeping top of mind in.
[15:34] SPEAKER_02: The discomfort between the waves listen everyone has their own risk tolerance for so I knew that if we couldn't figure out a way quickly to cash flow the business I.
[15:52] SPEAKER_00: My my my risk tolerance sort of my my risk tolerance was.
[16:00] SPEAKER_02: I was there so like this business at the very least has to cash flow itself i'm not going to you know because we were many years into it so I wasn't prepared to go into my pocket and fun and fund it it had to cash flow so that was the first hurdle and luckily very quickly with Amazon at the time.
[16:22] SPEAKER_02: We were able we were able to do that so that's like you know so once.
[16:28] SPEAKER_02: Once we were able to.
[16:31] SPEAKER_02: Plug the leak then it's a question of okay can we you know can we make it viable again can it be can it be more than a break even so I think it just depends on.
[16:45] SPEAKER_02: On the person's risk tolerance like sometimes you know i'll watch.
[16:50] SPEAKER_02: Dragons down or shark tank and the entrepreneur will say like I took a second mortgage on my house I use my kids college fund blah blah blah and i'm like oh my god like good for you but i'm not that i'm my risk tolerance is lower than yours.
[17:09] SPEAKER_02: i'm not prepared to do that so it just which might explain why neither of my businesses have become massive there more lifestyle businesses they pay they pay me they pay my business partner they cash flow positive but.
[17:27] SPEAKER_02: But they're not behemoths so I think a lot of it just comes down to the risk profile of the owners so I know I sort of know where my.
[17:41] SPEAKER_01: Red line is yeah i don't know if that makes sense but it does is is it appealing to you at all to have or create a behemoth type business that is.
[17:55] SPEAKER_02: Listen I think when you're younger I think when you're younger those are the stories that you read about the most so we're always reading about like oh the guy who started Shopify and.
[18:09] SPEAKER_02: Built a hundred billion dollar like whatever it is like it's always you know I feel like the media is always focused on the one and a billion huge stories but there's so many small businesses out there that are that that are basically the backbone of Canada they you know they have you know they they pay living they pay a living wage the owners the owners do well.
[18:39] SPEAKER_02: And I think those are the stories that we don't necessarily focus on enough so like no the truth is water finds its level and this is what I'm supposed to be doing.
[18:55] SPEAKER_02: So do I wish I had something much bigger I don't know it's sort of a crazy it's a crazy it's a crazy way to live and to think about things it's like at the end of the day we all just do our best and.
[19:07] SPEAKER_01: And this is what I meant to be doing yeah I appreciate that answer because I think you're right we hear so often and I hear it went you know I when I talk to startup founders especially where they're looking for funding to get them to this level to do this next thing and.
[19:26] SPEAKER_01: And I mean if you're 25 years old then you don't have a family and that's what you want to spend all your time doing great like focus on that for the time being and.
[19:36] SPEAKER_02: There are a lot of other ways to be successful yeah and I think I totally agree and I don't think those stories are told enough like we're always great on the oh so and so did it round C hundred million dollar blah blah blah and it's like who cares like that's his path good.
[19:56] SPEAKER_02: Good luck wish and well but that's not necessarily your path like I started my first business literally my business partner and I we each put in 2500 dollars that we had saved up as like young people from birthday gifts or something that we literally never put in another dollar and built it up to millions of dollars and sales and then had a successful exit literally started with 5000 dollars and just sort of figured it out as we went along like.
[20:25] SPEAKER_02: And you can still do that it's not but it's not the stories that we hear about every day it's always about so and so raised and acquired customers and they were taken over by blah blah blah like it's just I don't know when that story like that I don't know when that storyline took over but.
[20:47] SPEAKER_01: I don't think it has it has to be that way and that it doesn't have to be that way and that was just never my calling and still isn't yeah and I think that's a wonderful thing and I think knowing that is really important because to your point that is those are often the stories we tell is growth in terms of you know millions of dollars of sales per year not necessarily profitability growth in terms of the number of people you hire in a business which is an insane metric to have as.
[21:14] SPEAKER_01: Yeah metric of success and then you know and in terms of investment and it's like there's a lot there are there are people who.
[21:24] SPEAKER_01: You know do well run successful businesses by their own metrics who are not wanting for whatever they need in life they travel they live whatever and they're working 20 hours a week because they've designed a business that allows them to do that and they're not going to be.
[21:44] SPEAKER_01: 100 million dollar businesses and they don't want that because that is not going to be 20 hours a week yeah I agree and I appreciate yours not that I'm saying you only work 20 hours a week or not but I appreciate your story because it's not that of I need to grow to this specific behemoth size and take over the world with toys.
[22:05] SPEAKER_00: Yeah no it's just it's just our own story and it's again it just comes down to what we're comfortable doing.
[22:15] SPEAKER_00: So I have a.
[22:21] SPEAKER_01: This is kind of a pivot in the conversation I do have a question specifically about the sustainability aspect of the business you run because.
[22:31] SPEAKER_01: Sustainability is a huge topic in general when it comes to entrepreneurship and there are a lot of I know a lot of our listeners are very passionate about sustainable businesses for themselves whether they're creating it or investing in them or you know doing business with them buying from them whatever the case may be.
[22:55] SPEAKER_01: And I'm so I'm curious I haven't heard a lot about toys that are sustainable how what that is in your what that is for Kaden Levi what the why it's important what that looks like in general it's a vague question but I don't want to make assumptions about beyond the original they were made with sweaters right beyond that I don't make assumptions about what it looks like now.
[23:25] SPEAKER_02: Yeah I mean it's still a very very much part of our brand story so you know originally when I started Kaden Levi I teamed up with this designer that was making not children stuff but like home wears out of recycled sweaters and at the time my wife and I were about to welcome our first son Levi into the world and.
[23:54] SPEAKER_02: I noticed like as I was starting to I've always been drawn to like the product world so I was starting to investigate different products I would want from my own son and realize that there wasn't really a lot out there that was.
[24:05] SPEAKER_02: That was responsibly made and eco friendly that was interesting like it was very everything was very granola vanilla looking so at the same time by sort of putting myself at there I met this designer and asked her if she can make a few stuffed animals that I would pay her for for my son using the same manufacturing process and sure enough they turned out great and you know showed them around and had a great response
[24:35] SPEAKER_02: and it just sort of grew from there today when we come out with a new item or a new direction like we also make items at a polar flea right now which has a percentage of recycled plastic in it so it's like we're always looking at new projects through the same lens.
[24:56] SPEAKER_02: So yeah it's definitely it's it's important to us and but we also realize like that's part of why we're not going to be the next you know spin master because we don't make products for everybody the truth is a lot of people don't care about the environment and they just want the cheapest you know the cheapest lowest lowest concept you know that after two months when little timmy's done.
[25:24] SPEAKER_02: They're just thrown away so which is fine like that's just a different part of the market were we're not in that market we're trying to build products that you know that you'll keep for you know that you'll put it once the child is done playing with it it becomes a bit of an heirloom and you'll put her away for the next generation does that happen every time no some lots of people still don't care however that sort of that sort of the philosophy which is basically by less
[25:54] SPEAKER_02: but by better so our products you know like our hand puppets can be thirty dollars whereas you know a company like Melissa and Doug will sell five generic ones that they make offshore and they'll sell them for half the you know five for half the price and it's not that one they're just different it's like it's a different customer profile some people some people prefer to buy less and buy better and that's the customer that we're going after which ultimately just means we're going to be small.
[26:24] SPEAKER_01: Yeah and I think that it's it's an important note that there are I mean we all we know we talk about knowing your your customer knowing that niche and et cetera et cetera and there is absolutely a market for there always has been there always will be for something that is not cheaply made not meant to be discarded but
[26:54] SPEAKER_01: is consciously created yeah in an intentional way and I think that's a really important reminder for folks yeah before we wrap this up I want to ask one last question which is if you could go back in time and give yourself when you were a fresh faced entrepreneur one piece of advice what
[27:21] SPEAKER_00: advice what you gave yourself.
[27:25] SPEAKER_02: Hmm good question. I think I think you just have to like I think I would I had an open mind but I would like to go back if I could go back in time and do it again I would have an even more open mind to opportunities and possibilities and you know any time any time there was any time there was like
[27:48] SPEAKER_02: the smallest door opening I should invest I should investigate like I was like we did well like we were successful but when I look back it's like I remember you know we were once speaking to a big buyer about one of our products and she wanted us to make modifications and try to like customize it a little bit for them and I didn't pursue it wholeheartedly
[28:14] SPEAKER_02: whereas I think like if I can go back in time I should just like I should I should really just turn over every single stone and not leave you know just not leave anything unturned and I think that's like really just have an as open a mind and be as wide
[28:35] SPEAKER_02: as possible which we were but you could always be more so I think it just sort of comes down to attitude.
[28:45] SPEAKER_01: I love that and I think it's great advice thank you for sharing that thank you for taking the time to join me today I really appreciate your time Josh yeah for those listening this will be in the show notes but you can learn more about Josh and Kate and Levi at Kate and Levi dot com and that's CAT and D L E B I dot com.
[29:05] SPEAKER_01: And thanks for listening to Canada's podcast like comment and subscribe to all our channels get the latest podcasts from entrepreneurs across Canada.