After Years at the CRA, Susan O’Brien Took a Leap and Started Her Own Tax-Consulting Firm

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[00:00] SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Canada's podcast, the number one podcast for entrepreneurs by
[00:06] SPEAKER_00: entrepreneurs. Hello and welcome to Calgary's podcast on Canada's podcast
[00:12] SPEAKER_00: network joining me today is Susan O'Brien founder of Net Worth Thinking in
[00:18] SPEAKER_00: Calgary. Thanks for joining us today Susan. Thank you very much Mario. It's a
[00:21] SPEAKER_02: pleasure to be on the show with you today. Tell me a little bit about net worth
[00:26] SPEAKER_00: thinking and what it is and what you do. I'm still blind you asked because of
[00:32] SPEAKER_02: course I'm in financial services industry and most people think of it as just
[00:37] SPEAKER_02: buying this stock, picking that stock, what's hot today? You know what do I need to
[00:43] SPEAKER_02: buy sell, tell me? And net worth thinking is the complete opposite of that. Net
[00:48] SPEAKER_02: worth thinking really starts to listen and understand people and look at their
[00:53] SPEAKER_02: entire net worth to see what's really important to them what their goals are,
[00:58] SPEAKER_02: what do you want to accomplish with them? What is money to them? So it's a very
[01:02] SPEAKER_02: holistic integrated approach to really people's goals in life, their financial
[01:07] SPEAKER_00: goals in life and how they can achieve them. I can use a step back in time I
[01:13] SPEAKER_00: guess and tell me a little bit about yourself prior to founding net worth
[01:19] SPEAKER_02: thinking. Absolutely. So for the last 25 years I've really been helping people
[01:24] SPEAKER_02: reach their goals in this holistic integrated manner by really listening to
[01:29] SPEAKER_02: them. And what I found was that in the financial services industry as a whole
[01:34] SPEAKER_02: most people were not being well served. They didn't know where to turn, they
[01:39] SPEAKER_02: didn't know who to turn to and financial advisors as a group very entrepreneurial
[01:44] SPEAKER_02: but because they're entrepreneurial every advisor does something different. And so
[01:50] SPEAKER_02: I found that people were just they were just satisfied with the status quo.
[01:55] SPEAKER_02: They want to change and so I wrote this book to really, I called a new way forward for
[02:00] SPEAKER_02: wealth management net worth thinking and wrote the book to really tell people
[02:04] SPEAKER_02: there is a better way forward in financial services and there's a better way forward
[02:09] SPEAKER_02: for you to reach your goals. And before that I was in the tax world and so I
[02:14] SPEAKER_02: did taxes before that. But there was nothing personal about tax. I don't know
[02:19] SPEAKER_02: about you in the CRA but they're not my best try. I don't want to see anything
[02:23] SPEAKER_02: against them but doing tax work very intellectually stimulating but there's
[02:30] SPEAKER_02: nothing really human about it. And there's nothing where I can really be
[02:35] SPEAKER_02: part of people's journey to financial independence. And so I was yearning for
[02:41] SPEAKER_02: something more and that's why I got into the financial services world yearning for
[02:45] SPEAKER_02: better financial services. That's why I wrote the book. So when did you start
[02:52] SPEAKER_00: giving me some timeline here? When did you start? First of all the book itself,
[02:57] SPEAKER_00: when did that come out and when the net worth thinking come into existence?
[03:02] SPEAKER_02: That's a great question because if you ever talked to anybody who writes a book,
[03:06] SPEAKER_02: I think they write it five times before they actually write the book.
[03:10] SPEAKER_02: True. Yeah. So I've probably been working on what's important to people? What do they want to know?
[03:17] SPEAKER_02: How do I write a book? How do I get a message across? But it really started coalescing in 2018.
[03:23] SPEAKER_02: So in 2018, I couldn't procrastinate anymore. I couldn't keep starting without finishing. I had
[03:33] SPEAKER_02: a brief outline of what my experiences had taught me. What the people I work with
[03:38] SPEAKER_02: have taught me, what they need in life. And started to just write it all down. And just my thoughts
[03:46] SPEAKER_02: of how things can be better. I really want people to have a better experience with their
[03:51] SPEAKER_02: financial services and advisors in general, all advisors, whether it's accountants, lawyers,
[03:57] SPEAKER_02: financial advisors, to really listen to them and to really partner with them and help them achieve
[04:03] SPEAKER_00: their goals. So when you look at the times that we're in obviously since last March, we've been
[04:10] SPEAKER_00: in very difficult times because of the COVID pandemic. Financially, especially, obviously there's
[04:18] SPEAKER_00: a lot of mental and emotional issues going on as well. But financially, a lot of people have
[04:23] SPEAKER_00: been in hard, a lot of people out of jobs, a lot of people probably wondering how they retire.
[04:33] SPEAKER_00: What have you been experiencing because of COVID on that front?
[04:39] SPEAKER_02: I think that you're absolutely right, Mario. I think there's a lot of fear and fear comes from
[04:44] SPEAKER_02: uncertainty. Uncertainty, these are uncertain times. We don't know what's going to happen.
[04:50] SPEAKER_02: We've seen such tragedies in our elder care system and in our care homes that for the first time
[05:00] SPEAKER_02: in 25 years, people are really thinking about, not only do I have enough money to retire,
[05:05] SPEAKER_02: but what happens when I get over it? And who's going to take care of me and how are they going to
[05:10] SPEAKER_02: take care of me? And do I have enough money? So the conversations have really pivoted to people's
[05:17] SPEAKER_02: health and people aging. Big concern right now.
[05:23] SPEAKER_00: When you look at a lot of the commercials that we've seen over the years on retirement,
[05:29] SPEAKER_00: right? Paying a nice picture, but that's going to look like. But also throw a, I don't want to
[05:37] SPEAKER_00: throw a dollar now and sell it, but sometimes they say, a million dollars to retire.
[05:45] SPEAKER_00: What do you think of that? When you deal with people, I think the vast majority of people
[05:52] SPEAKER_00: are not worth, it may not be in that million dollar range.
[05:57] SPEAKER_02: Absolutely. Most Canadians do not have a financial plan. Their financial plan might be,
[06:02] SPEAKER_02: my children will take care of me. It is a financial plan, but not a very good one.
[06:08] SPEAKER_02: So you're right. Everyone is an individual. And of course, the amount of money you need to retire
[06:13] SPEAKER_02: depends completely on your lifestyle today. But people are more concerned than ever. And again,
[06:19] SPEAKER_02: I think it comes back to that uncertainty. But we use in retirement, and even that word is a loaded
[06:24] SPEAKER_02: word. Like what is retirement? Today, so retirement used to be, I retired, I got a pension,
[06:31] SPEAKER_02: and I was pretty much gone in the next year or two. Retirement, I think, is a whole new concept
[06:35] SPEAKER_02: these days, where people are really envisioning when they're still in their 50s, 60s, 70s,
[06:42] SPEAKER_02: and even beyond that, like how am I engaged in the world? What am I giving back? What do I want to do?
[06:48] SPEAKER_02: And sometimes it's partly financially driven, but often it's more altruistically driven,
[06:54] SPEAKER_02: or they want to be, and maybe these are the people that I love to work with, but they're just
[07:00] SPEAKER_02: thinking about the world around them and how they can stay engaged. And so I would say that they're
[07:05] SPEAKER_02: never retired, although they may be living off their wealth. Exactly. But when you, as an
[07:12] SPEAKER_00: entrepreneur, obviously starting this up and starting up a business, what do you, I guess,
[07:20] SPEAKER_00: where the key challenges in going out on your own and doing this? Oh, that's... I started,
[07:31] SPEAKER_02: when I started, I remember, well, there's no paycheck. I mean, you leave a paying job,
[07:36] SPEAKER_02: and there's no paycheck. So there was always too much money at the end of the money.
[07:43] SPEAKER_02: And there was a mortgage, and I had a one-year-old, five-year-old, eight-year-old, and 11-year-old
[07:49] SPEAKER_02: to support. And I remember I had no revenue, I had no clients, and I had no business plan,
[07:57] SPEAKER_02: and the idea of networking hadn't even entered my break. I was just trying to survive.
[08:02] SPEAKER_02: And I remember the first time I called someone up to talk about what I did in financial services,
[08:08] SPEAKER_02: and how I did it. My legs were just shaking, and I thought, how am I going to make a business
[08:13] SPEAKER_02: out of this one? I can barely stand up. But I persevered, and I think being an entrepreneur,
[08:21] SPEAKER_02: it's really about perseverance. And every time you said, no, and every time you're knocked down,
[08:28] SPEAKER_02: it's very difficult not to take that personally, but to just say, you know, I'm going to do this.
[08:35] SPEAKER_02: This is a passion of mine. I really want to do this. And somehow survived, but it wasn't without
[08:41] SPEAKER_02: a lot of grit perseverance and a nice bank loan. So thank you very much to the bank for
[08:47] SPEAKER_02: loaning the money that I could still eat and feed the kids here. Five years. I was five years.
[08:52] SPEAKER_02: Oh, wow. Five years of really slucking it out, I guess you could say. So being an entrepreneur
[08:58] SPEAKER_02: is wonderful when you know that your business is thriving. It is almost terrifying in those early
[09:09] SPEAKER_00: stages. Yeah. In those stages that you were setting things up, Susan, what pieces of advice
[09:17] SPEAKER_00: did you receive that kind of resonated with you and stuck with you on being an entrepreneur?
[09:24] SPEAKER_02: The pieces of advice that stuck to me to me to mouse for about a resilience, like never giving up.
[09:30] SPEAKER_02: If I had so many nose in a day, I remember what my mentor is saying, just count it as another
[09:36] SPEAKER_02: no. And you know, after so many nose, you'll get a yes, so track that and just be really excited. Yeah,
[09:42] SPEAKER_02: that's 10 nose and after 10 nose, I pretty much get a yes. So it's a mind game. It's really a
[09:48] SPEAKER_02: mind game. Another one is that Susan, it's a part-time job. You choose any 12 hours a day you want to
[09:56] SPEAKER_00: work. Yeah, that's true, right? And then I realize that, right? I think a lot of people, even if
[10:03] SPEAKER_00: people go into being an entrepreneur and on their own, they don't realize that there's so much
[10:10] SPEAKER_00: involved in the sense that, you know, even for myself, I think over the years, I recognize quite
[10:17] SPEAKER_00: frankly initially that I had two jobs, right? The job of what I do, but then there was the business
[10:23] SPEAKER_00: side of things, right? Is that you've got to take care of the business, you know, going out,
[10:29] SPEAKER_00: finding clients that they can care of your your books and invoicing, marketing and all that stuff.
[10:36] SPEAKER_02: Is that the place to look? Yeah, absolutely. I feel like I'm gumby. You know, I'm just
[10:40] SPEAKER_02: pulling all these different directions all the time, right? You're pulled to work in your business.
[10:45] SPEAKER_02: So getting better, skill wise and process wise and operations, but then you have to work on your
[10:52] SPEAKER_02: business. Yeah. And that's the whole, you know, the financial part behind it or the advertising
[10:57] SPEAKER_02: or the marketing or being out in the community. So definitely, yeah, I think all entrepreneurs
[11:03] SPEAKER_02: or gumbies and they're just being pulled and pushed and prodded, which is in a way delightful,
[11:10] SPEAKER_02: if you're the kind of person who just always loves learning and growing. Yeah.
[11:17] SPEAKER_02: You're always as an entrepreneur being stretched in different directions. So you're always
[11:22] SPEAKER_02: learning something new, you're always growing and you have to be willing to fall flat on your face.
[11:27] SPEAKER_02: Yeah. And learn from that, right? And learn from it. Just like brush yourself off and get
[11:34] SPEAKER_00: up and try it again. And I think a lot of the famous athletes would always say, you know, that,
[11:41] SPEAKER_00: you know, you see the success that they had, like whether it's on the in the hockey rink or on
[11:47] SPEAKER_00: on the basketball court, but they don't see all the failures that led up to that success, right?
[11:52] SPEAKER_02: Every entrepreneur and I and I'm including myself for sure in this, I have failed in so many
[12:00] SPEAKER_02: different ways. And I think the key is, is once I get over, I mean, it's a, for me, it's, it's,
[12:06] SPEAKER_02: if I fail, I'm a bit of a perfectionist. So if I fail, I kind of like, what, you know, what was
[12:11] SPEAKER_02: I doing or thinking or how could I have done that or why did I make that mistake? But there's no
[12:21] SPEAKER_02: there's no, you can't get from here to there without falling or failing or being vulnerable or
[12:30] SPEAKER_02: putting yourself up there. So yes, being an entrepreneur, resilience, embracing yourself,
[12:39] SPEAKER_02: even when you're not perfect, even when you fail, trying again, trying new things. I've also,
[12:44] SPEAKER_02: when we talk about failures, I've tried new approaches, I've tried new processes before I did the
[12:51] SPEAKER_02: networks thinking process. So it's not always failure. Sometimes it's trying new things and they
[12:56] SPEAKER_02: just don't work, but you've got to keep trying. Yeah. Because we've always got to keep growing and
[13:01] SPEAKER_00: adapting and getting to what is meaningful for people. So I'm just curious from the, the people you
[13:08] SPEAKER_00: deal with and also maybe just people you just talk to in general. This particular time, you know,
[13:15] SPEAKER_00: you can look at it in two different ways, right, of being an entrepreneur. Like it could spur a lot
[13:23] SPEAKER_00: of people to become entrepreneurs, right? Because they're out of jobs and they're like, say in Calgary,
[13:30] SPEAKER_00: their oil company has just laid them off. You know, they don't want to go work for another company.
[13:36] SPEAKER_00: So they start to be an entrepreneur. That's one aspect of it. The other aspect though is,
[13:41] SPEAKER_00: is as you mentioned, the fear, right? The fear of, oh jeez, I don't want to start a new business
[13:48] SPEAKER_00: in this kind of environment. So what are you getting in terms of talking to different people on
[13:57] SPEAKER_02: becoming and being an entrepreneur these days? Well, I think you bring up two very good points there.
[14:04] SPEAKER_02: Number one is that when we ever go through a downturn in the economy, which we certainly seeing
[14:10] SPEAKER_02: with the number of people being laid off, whether it's in the energy industry or in hospitality
[14:15] SPEAKER_02: industry, you know, restaurants closing, that does where people want to think, well, I still need to
[14:23] SPEAKER_02: make money. But more than making money, what, what do I really want out of life? And where do I really
[14:30] SPEAKER_02: want to go? And maybe I can have a business doing just that. So I think that as devastating as it is
[14:39] SPEAKER_02: to lose a job. And I, I sympathize with everyone because it's never their choice. So something that's
[14:45] SPEAKER_02: out of our controls, very difficult. You know, I, I feel compassionate toward those people who have
[14:51] SPEAKER_02: lost their jobs. But I also want to say to sometimes the flip side of the coin is it gives people
[14:57] SPEAKER_02: pause. If they can possibly have some time to pause to really think about what the next phase of
[15:03] SPEAKER_02: their life might look like and what kind of business they could really put their passion. And I
[15:08] SPEAKER_02: think an entrepreneur, you, it's not a, it's a vocation, it's a passion, it's a life and what they
[15:14] SPEAKER_02: can do. The other part is fear. And you talked about fear and sometimes big if I knew how tough it
[15:22] SPEAKER_02: was going to be when I ever do it again. And I would say, yes, I would do it again. I don't want to
[15:26] SPEAKER_02: do it again, but I would do it again because the rewards are so great if you can, if you can
[15:32] SPEAKER_02: overcome fear. And the way that I can only ever chat with entrepreneurs and I'm part of women's
[15:39] SPEAKER_02: president organization, which is peer-to-peer mentoring. So we're mentoring each other really through
[15:44] SPEAKER_02: our fears in a way. And is to have as much knowledge as you can possibly going in so that you can
[15:52] SPEAKER_02: overcome your fears. For me, it was fear of not being, you know, not having enough money to eat
[15:59] SPEAKER_02: or pay the mortgage. So it was lucky enough to overcome that by having a bank loan to bank
[16:04] SPEAKER_02: loan me for, for a period of time. So your biggest fears, yes, you've got to, you've got to address
[16:11] SPEAKER_02: them head on and you've got to figure out, do I have a workable solution so that I can decrease my
[16:18] SPEAKER_02: level of fear? But you can't, being an entrepreneur, you cannot rationalize or research everything away.
[16:25] SPEAKER_02: That's probably a good thing. You can't eliminate it all. You have to take care of your leave.
[16:29] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, as you know, like, you know, being an entrepreneur, there's, you're right, you know, it's like
[16:35] SPEAKER_00: 12 hours a day, it's actually even more, right? And so how do you balance that for yourself personally,
[16:45] SPEAKER_00: you know, taking all that time, running a business, but you have also a life to lead, right? So
[16:51] SPEAKER_00: how do you work that kind of work like balance into what you do?
[16:57] SPEAKER_02: So Mary, I've spoken at some women's conferences and I don't know if men have as many questions
[17:04] SPEAKER_02: about work life balance, but as a woman, I get a lot of questions about work life balance and I
[17:08] SPEAKER_02: basically say there isn't such a thing. If you think of work life balance as my job is,
[17:14] SPEAKER_02: so my business is part time and then I get to do this and I get to do that and I get, you know,
[17:19] SPEAKER_02: if being an entrepreneur consumes you, I think, and that's why you need a passion for it. So
[17:26] SPEAKER_02: even if I am not working in the business as we talked about, you know, even if I'm not here today
[17:32] SPEAKER_02: or dealing directly with clients, my mind's always working on the business. How do I get better?
[17:39] SPEAKER_02: What do I need to do? What do I need to change? What kind of things do I need to learn? So
[17:44] SPEAKER_02: you need a passion for what you're doing. Now, what that does though, although I don't have the
[17:50] SPEAKER_02: 50-50 traditional work life balance or whatever people presume that is, because I love what I do
[17:57] SPEAKER_02: so much, it really energizes me and my other relationships. So when I do see my children and I do
[18:04] SPEAKER_02: see them, they're very important to me and my family and my spouse, my mother and my relationships,
[18:10] SPEAKER_02: I bring a certain kind of energy there. I am totally present, I'm totally there, totally happy
[18:16] SPEAKER_02: with what I'm doing. So my short answer is no work life balance, but work life balance that
[18:22] SPEAKER_02: that works for me and that I love. I can't imagine anything else. Like I cannot imagine retirement
[18:28] SPEAKER_02: in the traditional sense of the word. Me neither. Why would I leave something I'd love to do what?
[18:35] SPEAKER_02: Like I volunteer a lot now, but I don't want to volunteer anymore. I don't want to clean my own house
[18:41] SPEAKER_02: or cut my own grass. I like to travel, but I'm traveling it up. So why don't I give up something I
[18:47] SPEAKER_02: love to do something that I maybe don't love as much? So maybe that'll change Mario in the future,
[18:53] SPEAKER_00: but right now. So I feel. Okay, super. Well, thanks for joining us today, Susan. That was great.
[18:59] SPEAKER_02: So pleasure being on your show, Mario, to all your listeners. I think about them all and I wish
[19:06] SPEAKER_00: them all the best on their own journey. Okay, great. That was Susan O'Brien, who is founder of NetWorth
[19:13] SPEAKER_00: Thinking in Calgary. I'm your host Mario Tonoguzzi on Calgary's podcast on Canada's podcast
[19:19] SPEAKER_00: network. Thank for joining us today.