Solve and Validate Solutions Through Low-Resource Methods Before Building a Product

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TRANSCRIPTION WITH SPEAKERS
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[00:00] SPEAKER_04: Welcome to Canada's Podcast.
[00:05] SPEAKER_04: Hi everyone, I'm Phil Bliss Founder and CEO of Canada's Podcast.
[00:09] SPEAKER_04: Coming to you today from Toronto.
[00:12] SPEAKER_04: Matt Penosa is the co-founder and CEO at Mars,
[00:16] SPEAKER_04: which actually stands for Monsters, Aliens, robots and zombies.
[00:22] SPEAKER_04: Mars is an AI-enabled VFX company
[00:25] SPEAKER_04: on a mission to our Hollywood studios,
[00:27] Speaker UNKNOWN: which is a director of Worcester boundaries,
[00:29] SPEAKER_04: quality and volume of TV,
[00:31] SPEAKER_04: and has developed an AI platform called LippDub.AI.
[00:35] SPEAKER_04: Matt is a lawyer by training and an entrepreneur
[00:38] SPEAKER_04: with the demonstrated history of success,
[00:41] SPEAKER_04: co-finding a scaling BTB technology startups,
[00:44] SPEAKER_04: including Acto, which was a venture back by Salesforce,
[00:48] SPEAKER_04: Ventures, Resolve Growth Partners and Pernaish Ventures,
[00:52] SPEAKER_04: and Co-on-on-Street Mars,
[00:55] SPEAKER_04: which is also venture backed by around 13 Capital Rhino Ventures,
[00:59] SPEAKER_04: Arlo Acro-Departments and John Casteday,
[01:02] SPEAKER_04: with a focus on company strategy, product, operations and growth.
[01:07] SPEAKER_04: The specialties include General Management Strategy,
[01:11] SPEAKER_04: Operations, Product Management, Go-to-Market,
[01:14] SPEAKER_04: Business and Financial Analysis,
[01:16] SPEAKER_04: Obviously Venture Fundraising, Business Models,
[01:19] SPEAKER_04: Product Marketing, Demand Jam,
[01:23] SPEAKER_04: Sales Remniew Operations, Recruitment and Organisation,
[01:26] SPEAKER_04: Pre-Dutch, a well-rounded operational CEO.
[01:31] SPEAKER_04: So Matt, welcome to Canada's podcast, nice to meet you,
[01:35] SPEAKER_04: and so that people know a bit about you
[01:38] SPEAKER_04: before we get going.
[01:41] SPEAKER_04: Tell us a little bit about who Matt and his sister,
[01:44] SPEAKER_01: what you do, and how you got here, you like.
[01:48] SPEAKER_01: Sure, so yeah, thanks so much for having me.
[01:53] SPEAKER_03: In terms of where I come from,
[01:57] SPEAKER_03: I actually started as a lawyer by training,
[02:01] SPEAKER_03: never actually practiced, did my first startup out of law school,
[02:06] SPEAKER_03: Toronto-based SaaS company called Acto,
[02:11] SPEAKER_03: which was a training platform for the Life Sciences Space,
[02:15] SPEAKER_03: and worked on that business for the better part of five years
[02:19] SPEAKER_03: and got out of it, and then transitioned into
[02:24] SPEAKER_03: starting a business called Monsters Aliens,
[02:27] SPEAKER_03: Robots Zombies, which started as a visual effects company,
[02:33] SPEAKER_03: and transitioned into an AI for VFX company
[02:38] SPEAKER_03: where we're building software.
[02:43] SPEAKER_03: To make VFX fast and easy for the first time.
[02:47] SPEAKER_03: And so the first product we built was a product called Vanity,
[02:50] SPEAKER_03: which was a digital makeup, a digital makeup product,
[02:55] SPEAKER_03: and the second product we're focused on right now
[02:58] SPEAKER_03: is a product called LIPDub AI,
[03:00] SPEAKER_03: which makes dubbed content look real for the first time
[03:03] SPEAKER_03: by perfectly syncing the lips to any new audio file.
[03:09] SPEAKER_01: So that's what I'm working on now.
[03:13] SPEAKER_04: You know, I mean, it says,
[03:15] SPEAKER_04: after all that schooling, you know,
[03:18] SPEAKER_04: degree, second degree,
[03:20] SPEAKER_04: what the heck made you not become a lawyer?
[03:24] SPEAKER_04: I mean, is it the answer?
[03:27] SPEAKER_04: I mean, lots of lawyers are entrepreneurs,
[03:30] SPEAKER_04: but I mean, you didn't follow that,
[03:34] SPEAKER_04: what, six to eight years of training.
[03:38] SPEAKER_04: Why, why, why?
[03:39] SPEAKER_04: I'm just curious.
[03:41] SPEAKER_04: I mean, I have a sort of suspicion
[03:44] SPEAKER_04: that entrepreneurs are wired differently
[03:45] SPEAKER_04: that might be to do with that kind of thing.
[03:49] SPEAKER_04: I'm just curious.
[03:51] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean, I think I knew candidly,
[03:54] SPEAKER_03: pretty quickly into law school,
[03:55] SPEAKER_03: that it wasn't something I was ever going to be passionate about.
[03:59] SPEAKER_03: I mean, there was kids in my class that loved it, right?
[04:03] SPEAKER_03: Like, loved Rudy Kate, that is.
[04:05] SPEAKER_03: And I just had a sense that,
[04:08] SPEAKER_03: like, it wasn't, it wasn't something
[04:10] SPEAKER_03: that was ever going to make me happy as a profession.
[04:13] SPEAKER_03: And I probably wouldn't have been very good relative
[04:16] SPEAKER_03: to my peers who actually loved,
[04:20] SPEAKER_03: loved what they were doing.
[04:22] SPEAKER_03: I do think we're cardinating to me.
[04:25] SPEAKER_03: And so it just,
[04:26] SPEAKER_03: it struck me pretty early on in the experience.
[04:28] SPEAKER_03: Can they also have a philosophy undergrad?
[04:31] SPEAKER_03: So, I don't know if you're aware,
[04:32] SPEAKER_03: but there's not a ton of philosophy shops hiring in the city.
[04:36] SPEAKER_03: No.
[04:38] SPEAKER_03: It was also, can at least,
[04:40] SPEAKER_03: somewhat of a hedge for me,
[04:41] SPEAKER_03: but yeah, pretty early on,
[04:43] SPEAKER_03: I knew that it wasn't,
[04:44] SPEAKER_03: it wasn't the path for me.
[04:47] SPEAKER_03: But I met my co-founder in law school.
[04:49] SPEAKER_03: And so it's like everything happens for a reason, right?
[04:52] SPEAKER_03: That's right. That's right.
[04:54] SPEAKER_03: Interesting.
[04:55] SPEAKER_04: So, I mean, so you moved to entrepreneurship.
[04:58] SPEAKER_04: You know, you worked in tech.
[05:00] SPEAKER_04: It did fairly well.
[05:01] SPEAKER_04: You've started this business.
[05:03] SPEAKER_04: Why tech?
[05:04] SPEAKER_04: Why not something else?
[05:05] SPEAKER_04: I mean, you know,
[05:07] SPEAKER_01: is a passion?
[05:08] SPEAKER_01: Is it, you know, why tech?
[05:15] SPEAKER_01: I think, hey, I'm, I just love,
[05:17] SPEAKER_01: I love working on,
[05:20] SPEAKER_03: I love working on the cutting edge.
[05:22] SPEAKER_03: I just inherently find that interesting.
[05:24] SPEAKER_03: I'm trying to push the boundaries
[05:26] SPEAKER_03: and create new technology that enables,
[05:28] SPEAKER_03: you know, old problems get solved in new ways.
[05:31] SPEAKER_03: So, generally, just interested in tech.
[05:34] SPEAKER_03: And I also think tech is unique in the sense that
[05:38] SPEAKER_03: there are very few business models
[05:41] SPEAKER_03: where you can impact anywhere near the number of,
[05:48] SPEAKER_03: of users as you can't get into business.
[05:52] SPEAKER_03: And so, if your focus is on solving a big problem,
[05:55] SPEAKER_03: like for us right now,
[05:56] SPEAKER_03: we really feel like the local,
[05:57] SPEAKER_03: like localization of media
[05:59] SPEAKER_03: would be much, much better done.
[06:02] SPEAKER_03: And because it's a tech product, right?
[06:04] SPEAKER_03: We have the ability to scale this offering across the globe.
[06:09] SPEAKER_03: Unlike, you know,
[06:11] SPEAKER_03: a services business, let's say where
[06:13] SPEAKER_03: there's all sorts of constraints to scale.
[06:16] SPEAKER_03: Not to suggest that scaling a tech company
[06:19] SPEAKER_03: doesn't come with its own challenges,
[06:21] SPEAKER_03: but I think it's,
[06:24] SPEAKER_03: I think it's, I think it's for me again.
[06:26] SPEAKER_03: It's the fact that I,
[06:27] SPEAKER_03: I just find technology itself to be really inherently interesting.
[06:32] SPEAKER_03: And I love the fact that you can solve big problems on a big scale.
[06:37] SPEAKER_03: And you can make a meaningful impact on the global scale
[06:40] SPEAKER_03: if you do it right.
[06:42] SPEAKER_00: Stay ahead of the game with our expert tips and strategies
[06:45] SPEAKER_00: that will help your business thrive in a digital era.
[06:48] SPEAKER_00: Canada's podcast.com subscribe now.
[06:52] SPEAKER_04: I mean, you've been pretty successful in, you know,
[06:55] SPEAKER_04: over the last decade or so.
[06:57] SPEAKER_04: What would you say in the top two or three reasons?
[07:03] SPEAKER_04: What, you know, why you've been successful?
[07:05] SPEAKER_01: Well, I don't know if I've been successful.
[07:08] SPEAKER_01: I've been working hard.
[07:10] SPEAKER_01: You know,
[07:12] SPEAKER_01: I think the things that went well at my previous business
[07:20] SPEAKER_03: and are going well now is.
[07:26] SPEAKER_01: For it being pretty,
[07:27] SPEAKER_03: and this is some of this will come off as cliche is right,
[07:29] SPEAKER_03: but really being,
[07:32] SPEAKER_03: really being truly dialed into the end user.
[07:37] SPEAKER_03: So kind of in contrast to what I said a second ago,
[07:40] SPEAKER_03: it's like, yes, the tech is great.
[07:41] SPEAKER_03: And you can be inherently interested in the tech.
[07:44] SPEAKER_03: But I mean, you really do have to start with what is the problem I'm solving?
[07:51] SPEAKER_03: And you should be backing into what tech makes sense relative
[07:55] SPEAKER_03: to that problem as opposed to starting with a piece of technology
[08:00] SPEAKER_03: that you're really interested in.
[08:02] SPEAKER_03: Building some solution and then trying to find users for it.
[08:06] SPEAKER_03: So I think in both markets,
[08:07] SPEAKER_03: as we started with,
[08:09] SPEAKER_03: we started with a problem set and act out.
[08:11] SPEAKER_03: The problem set was.
[08:14] SPEAKER_03: It must be really hard for sales people who sell,
[08:18] SPEAKER_03: in our case, it was Pharma and medical Pharma pharmaceutical products
[08:22] SPEAKER_03: or medical device products.
[08:23] SPEAKER_03: You know, these sales reps are out there.
[08:25] SPEAKER_03: And sometimes they're selling hundreds of products.
[08:28] SPEAKER_03: And yet they only have two weeks of time when they're hired to train on everything,
[08:33] SPEAKER_03: which isn't enough time.
[08:35] SPEAKER_03: And so all of the problem we were solving at Acto was felt that sales reps
[08:41] SPEAKER_03: that are in the field selling a lot of complex products need a really strong
[08:46] SPEAKER_03: mobile training platform,
[08:48] SPEAKER_03: not only that can train them initially,
[08:49] SPEAKER_03: but also gives them very fast access for information in order to recall things
[08:55] SPEAKER_03: prior to meetings.
[08:56] SPEAKER_03: What have you?
[08:58] SPEAKER_03: And then all the tech decisions we made were relative to that.
[09:02] SPEAKER_03: So I think,
[09:03] SPEAKER_03: and now with, you know, Mars,
[09:05] SPEAKER_03: I mean, our whole endeavor into AI.
[09:08] SPEAKER_03: Again, it started under,
[09:10] SPEAKER_03: of course, AI was cool,
[09:12] SPEAKER_03: but keep in mind we started working on it.
[09:14] SPEAKER_03: It was 2019, generative AI hadn't really become what it is today.
[09:19] SPEAKER_03: The tech at the time was only really good at like image synthesis,
[09:23] SPEAKER_03: but we just were speaking to the market,
[09:25] SPEAKER_03: which in our case was Hollywood because we came from visual effects
[09:28] SPEAKER_03: and just continually saw this pain point of, you know,
[09:33] SPEAKER_03: directors and showrunners wanting to create more of the effects
[09:37] SPEAKER_03: and just always feeling budgetarily constrained, constrained with time.
[09:41] SPEAKER_03: So we said, you know, it would be amazing if we could, you know,
[09:44] SPEAKER_03: build solutions that allow VFX to be done in a fraction of the time,
[09:48] SPEAKER_03: and a fraction of the cost.
[09:51] SPEAKER_03: And so it was through that that we just started that program.
[09:55] SPEAKER_03: And then,
[09:55] SPEAKER_03: so I think it's just been a focus on, you know,
[09:58] SPEAKER_03: the end user and what they're really after where they're being
[10:02] SPEAKER_03: over served, underserved.
[10:06] SPEAKER_03: And I think the other thing that I've managed to do pretty well
[10:10] SPEAKER_03: is like building great teams to solve these problems.
[10:13] SPEAKER_03: I think so much of it.
[10:15] SPEAKER_03: So much of success or failure will come down to the team
[10:18] SPEAKER_03: because the reality is,
[10:22] SPEAKER_03: you know, your initial thesis on a market or problem,
[10:29] SPEAKER_03: there may be parts of it that are correct,
[10:31] SPEAKER_03: and there will certainly be parts of it that are incorrect.
[10:33] SPEAKER_03: And things smart teams,
[10:36] SPEAKER_03: what makes smart teams so integral, especially,
[10:39] SPEAKER_03: to early stage tech businesses is,
[10:43] SPEAKER_03: smart teams are going to understand very quickly which assumptions
[10:48] SPEAKER_03: were incorrect that were you made and are going to figure out,
[10:53] SPEAKER_03: how do we pivot according to the learnings that we're having,
[10:56] SPEAKER_03: whereas I think less than ideal teams don't go through those
[11:03] SPEAKER_03: learning loops as quickly.
[11:05] SPEAKER_03: And I just, from what I've seen just going through learning loops
[11:09] SPEAKER_03: as quickly as possible,
[11:10] SPEAKER_03: is one of the most important metrics for the success of a tech company.
[11:18] SPEAKER_03: Like I spoke about Acto a second ago,
[11:20] SPEAKER_03: we got to that problem.
[11:23] SPEAKER_03: But originally, you know,
[11:26] SPEAKER_03: it was actually focused on HR.
[11:29] SPEAKER_03: And had we had,
[11:30] SPEAKER_03: and then we would sell it to HR,
[11:32] SPEAKER_03: we'd rather try as the better word to sell it to HR
[11:35] SPEAKER_03: and realize that HR departments generally don't care about mobile training solutions.
[11:43] SPEAKER_03: I know it's funny talking about mobile training solutions like it's crazy now,
[11:47] SPEAKER_03: but keep in mind this was back in 2013,
[11:48] SPEAKER_03: we were the first native training app on the market.
[11:52] SPEAKER_03: But it was through that learning that HR doesn't really care about this.
[11:56] SPEAKER_03: They're primarily concerned with just doing onboarding and getting teams,
[12:00] SPEAKER_03: or getting the new on boards into their respective functional areas to be trained up.
[12:09] SPEAKER_03: It was really through that process of not being able to sell to HR,
[12:13] SPEAKER_03: we really had to look at what we had built and said,
[12:17] SPEAKER_03: okay, who would care about a mobile app?
[12:21] SPEAKER_03: It's like, maybe it would be folks that are focused on,
[12:27] SPEAKER_03: or rather maybe it would be folks who aren't headquarters.
[12:32] SPEAKER_03: And he's not only strong remote training,
[12:36] SPEAKER_03: but also fast access to information.
[12:39] SPEAKER_03: And we literally just listed out all the different industries
[12:42] SPEAKER_03: that have field sales forces that are selling complex products.
[12:46] SPEAKER_03: And then it was through like the testing of messaging
[12:49] SPEAKER_03: with all those different markets that we arrived at,
[12:53] SPEAKER_03: pharmaceutical and medical device being,
[12:56] SPEAKER_03: or showing a lot of interest.
[12:59] SPEAKER_03: So that's one example of maybe more of a go-to market learning loop
[13:02] SPEAKER_03: that we had to go through that ultimately informed the way that product was built out.
[13:07] SPEAKER_03: But I think that's what Smart Teams afford you is going through those motions
[13:13] SPEAKER_01: as quickly as possible.
[13:14] SPEAKER_01: So what do you like best about being an entrepreneur versus an employee?
[13:26] SPEAKER_04: Not really something wrong with being an employee,
[13:28] SPEAKER_04: I'm just concerned about the entrepreneur side.
[13:31] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think I've always had a problem with authority.
[13:34] SPEAKER_03: I don't think I would make good employee.
[13:37] SPEAKER_03: I know I would make a employee.
[13:38] SPEAKER_03: I also just generally, my general feeling is always being,
[13:44] SPEAKER_03: if I'm going to work, if I'm going to work as hard as I know I'm going to work,
[13:50] SPEAKER_03: I'd like to do it for myself.
[13:54] SPEAKER_01: So I like the autonomy.
[13:57] SPEAKER_01: I like that.
[14:01] SPEAKER_01: I liked it the success or failure of what I'm doing is predicated on myself.
[14:07] SPEAKER_03: And not the decisions of someone else in an organization.
[14:12] SPEAKER_03: And I want to have that impact.
[14:15] SPEAKER_03: And it's hard to get anywhere near that level of impact working for others.
[14:22] SPEAKER_03: So yeah, bad with authority.
[14:26] SPEAKER_03: I like autonomy.
[14:28] SPEAKER_03: Want to do things for myself.
[14:31] SPEAKER_03: All these reasons, I think.
[14:33] SPEAKER_03: Just end again, just like the general love and interest in the tax base.
[14:39] SPEAKER_01: That's just great.
[14:42] SPEAKER_04: So, you know, we've gone to a different perspective.
[14:47] SPEAKER_04: What's the greatest challenge you've faced in your business today that you've been able to,
[14:54] SPEAKER_01: you know, to get through basically?
[14:58] SPEAKER_01: At Montseries at Mars.
[15:00] SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
[15:01] SPEAKER_01: The biggest challenge that we face to date.
[15:06] SPEAKER_02: Ooh, a bunch.
[15:10] SPEAKER_02: So.
[15:14] SPEAKER_02: Let me think for a second.
[15:23] SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's been so many rights.
[15:25] SPEAKER_01: So that's why it's hard for me to.
[15:26] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
[15:27] SPEAKER_03: But I can give you, I can give you a few of the more.
[15:30] SPEAKER_04: Well, let's look at it in a different way.
[15:33] SPEAKER_04: When you face with challenge, you choose.
[15:36] SPEAKER_04: You know, how do you typically handle it?
[15:41] SPEAKER_01: Well, I think it's, it's somewhat difficult to answer that question.
[15:45] SPEAKER_03: Like the abstract.
[15:47] SPEAKER_03: Easier for me to maybe hone in on specific examples.
[15:52] SPEAKER_03: So I mean, there's been, there's been a few very hard things.
[15:54] SPEAKER_03: I think.
[15:57] SPEAKER_03: I think the transition from a services business to a software business was incredibly challenging.
[16:04] SPEAKER_03: And many, many told us along the way that it was a met that many had tried and failed at making this transition.
[16:16] SPEAKER_01: But you know, I try not to.
[16:19] SPEAKER_01: I try not to.
[16:20] SPEAKER_03: I try not to be too dogmatic or to listen to universal statements like it can or cannot be done.
[16:31] SPEAKER_03: I feel like the devil is in the details.
[16:33] SPEAKER_03: I think what made our transition work was that we did it in a staggered manner.
[16:40] SPEAKER_03: So, you know, step one was building a great research and engineering team.
[16:44] SPEAKER_03: Initially, we offered our products as services.
[16:47] SPEAKER_03: Because it was there were more cost synergies and just general organization synergies with our existing services business.
[16:55] SPEAKER_03: So.
[16:58] SPEAKER_03: Keeping the team small initially starting by selling the products as services.
[17:05] SPEAKER_03: And then slowly transitioning to words software offerings.
[17:12] SPEAKER_03: And then also keeping the two businesses totally separate and distinct.
[17:16] SPEAKER_03: So that was, you know, summarized quickly there.
[17:19] SPEAKER_03: That was a, you know, from 2019 to today.
[17:22] SPEAKER_03: So that's a five year.
[17:25] SPEAKER_03: We've been on to make that transition.
[17:28] SPEAKER_04: So that's how funny how five years is it?
[17:32] SPEAKER_04: It's such a creature.
[17:34] SPEAKER_04: Four to five years is sort of the sort of solution point for so many so many business startups basically.
[17:43] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean, it was it was a it was a tough road.
[17:50] SPEAKER_03: And like within that there was a myriad of different challenges, obviously.
[17:55] SPEAKER_03: I'd say standing up and amazing.
[17:56] SPEAKER_03: Like, especially in the space that we're working in, which is AI for Hollywood.
[18:03] SPEAKER_03: You know, the products are incredibly difficult to build.
[18:09] SPEAKER_03: For building products that are supposed to be outputting at Hollywood.
[18:15] SPEAKER_03: Great quality.
[18:17] SPEAKER_03: So, consistently.
[18:19] SPEAKER_03: So as an example for LIPDUB, the product that I mentioned earlier.
[18:25] SPEAKER_03: You can imagine it's an incredibly hard product to build.
[18:28] SPEAKER_03: Right.
[18:28] SPEAKER_03: You have your reconstructing performances.
[18:33] SPEAKER_03: And it has to be driven entirely by audio.
[18:36] SPEAKER_03: It has to be fully automated.
[18:40] SPEAKER_03: It has to handle all of the edge cases that you see in complex content.
[18:44] SPEAKER_03: And so like in my first year of us starting to toy with AI one challenge was.
[18:50] SPEAKER_03: We had a team of researchers that were doing.
[18:54] SPEAKER_03: Okay.
[18:56] SPEAKER_03: Is my first time doing anything in the AI space?
[18:59] SPEAKER_03: So I guess I was not even thinking that like all researchers are created equal.
[19:04] SPEAKER_03: And it's couldn't be further through.
[19:08] SPEAKER_03: You know, you can have 50 researchers on your team.
[19:11] SPEAKER_03: And if they're average, you know, you'll simply get 50 reasons back why something won't work.
[19:18] SPEAKER_03: Whereas one incredibly talented researcher will give you the answer as to how to make something work.
[19:24] SPEAKER_03: And so I learned pretty quickly that it's just not a game of quantity.
[19:28] SPEAKER_03: It's a game of quality.
[19:29] SPEAKER_03: And so kind of had to scrap the first iteration.
[19:32] SPEAKER_03: I spent almost a year hiring our chief scientist, Daniel Cohen or that was incredibly challenging.
[19:38] SPEAKER_03: But I knew we needed somebody that was world class to lead a world class product team.
[19:45] SPEAKER_03: So no within the journey, there's tons of challenges.
[19:50] SPEAKER_03: I don't know if that answered quite well.
[19:52] SPEAKER_04: It's good.
[19:53] SPEAKER_04: I think the kind of scenario you threw up.
[19:56] SPEAKER_04: Good.
[19:58] SPEAKER_04: You know, sort of moving on from that to kind of mentorship.
[20:04] SPEAKER_04: Okay.
[20:07] SPEAKER_04: How important that has that been to you?
[20:10] SPEAKER_04: And you know, what's the best piece of advice that you've received?
[20:20] SPEAKER_01: You know, I think mentors have been so helpful over the years.
[20:25] SPEAKER_03: Not that I have, you know, candidly, it's not like I have a dedicated mentor.
[20:29] SPEAKER_03: I think rather, I've worked with, I've gotten the chance to work with some really great entrepreneurs over the years that are ahead of me.
[20:40] SPEAKER_03: And then I still call on from time to time when faced with strategic decisions where I need that sounding board.
[20:53] SPEAKER_01: The best advice I've received is pretty consistent with, you know, the YC advice.
[21:00] SPEAKER_03: And, you know, all that's out there, but it is, it really does all come.
[21:04] SPEAKER_03: It so much comes back to build something people want, talk to your customers.
[21:13] SPEAKER_04: That's that's that's that's that's great advice.
[21:16] SPEAKER_04: That's great advice.
[21:19] SPEAKER_03: Sometimes it's you know, like these things are such like platitudes at this point, but they're correct.
[21:25] SPEAKER_04: They're not platitudes because people you've seen organizations where they have done that.
[21:33] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean, I think well, it's true.
[21:35] Speaker UNKNOWN: And I think there are many don't.
[21:36] SPEAKER_03: I'd also say like I've been such an avid reader, especially coming from law.
[21:46] SPEAKER_03: And having, you know, having having having a sense of how tech work, but really like so much of the learning.
[21:54] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I came from people, but in it from the experience, but it was really just through like, an absolute ton of reading.
[22:01] SPEAKER_03: Both from like technical.
[22:03] SPEAKER_04: Well, you're currently reading.
[22:07] SPEAKER_03: I'm currently reading the book that I'm propping this computer up on to make.
[22:15] SPEAKER_03: Ironically, it's called well, phone love with the problem, not the solution by Yuri will be in.
[22:21] SPEAKER_03: Who was the founder of ways.
[22:25] SPEAKER_03: Other companies really well run highly recommend not not finished it yet, but.
[22:32] SPEAKER_00: Where can Canada's podcast is your gateway to success in the world of entrepreneurship.
[22:37] SPEAKER_00: Start listening today.
[22:39] SPEAKER_00: Canada's podcast.com subscribe now.
[22:43] SPEAKER_04: What would you mean that one recommends any other books that sort of was it was a star.
[22:53] SPEAKER_01: If you like in your in your library, you know.
[22:57] SPEAKER_01: Crossing the chasm.
[23:00] SPEAKER_03: I honestly feel I probably employ crossing the chasm by Jeffrey Moore and that framework more than most frameworks.
[23:11] SPEAKER_03: It really helps you.
[23:13] SPEAKER_03: You know, many times when you're building these tech products, the reality is, especially if there are large addressable markets for those products.
[23:22] SPEAKER_03: It can be very difficult to understand how you get from like point A where you're nobody.
[23:30] SPEAKER_03: Nobody cares about you.
[23:31] SPEAKER_03: Nobody knows you to, you know, I've penetrated.
[23:37] SPEAKER_03: You know, these major markets like that path.
[23:42] SPEAKER_03: He just makes it so clear.
[23:45] SPEAKER_03: I get from point A to point B by finding your B.
[23:49] SPEAKER_03: Chad right.
[23:50] SPEAKER_03: Your B. Chad should be predicated on a number of pretty logical criteria like where is the most compelling reason to buy.
[24:00] SPEAKER_03: Does the person you're selling to have the money to buy your solution.
[24:04] SPEAKER_03: Ideally, there's no competition.
[24:06] SPEAKER_03: And you need a product that fully supports that value proposition.
[24:09] SPEAKER_03: And so it's like, you know, what I love about that book is it just makes it so clear that yes, you may have many industries, many functional areas that you want to target.
[24:19] SPEAKER_03: And it may feel logical for you to want to do it all at once.
[24:24] SPEAKER_03: But that is in fact not what you should be doing.
[24:27] SPEAKER_03: What you should be doing is looking for actually quite a small market where you feel there's an incredibly compelling reason to buy.
[24:33] SPEAKER_03: What you're offering where you actually have the product that fully satiates that value proposition.
[24:39] SPEAKER_03: And where you can quickly penetrate the market and that becomes a foundation on which you can build.
[24:47] SPEAKER_03: Kind of a concentric circles around.
[24:50] SPEAKER_03: And he uses like the bowling pin analogy.
[24:53] SPEAKER_03: So like that first market is here.
[24:55] SPEAKER_03: That first market is your first bowling pin from there.
[24:58] SPEAKER_03: For industries, you can go into different functional areas within your existing clients.
[25:04] SPEAKER_03: That one always sticks out strategically.
[25:11] SPEAKER_03: I've always there's a great it's I didn't want to read both volumes of Porter since it's like many, many hundreds of pages between the two books.
[25:21] SPEAKER_03: I think it's like a thousand pages between the two books.
[25:23] SPEAKER_03: I read a summary of that book called Understanding Micro Porter by consultant.
[25:29] SPEAKER_01: Forget that forget the name of the book is called Understanding Micro Porter.
[25:36] SPEAKER_01: That one is I mean I read.
[25:39] SPEAKER_03: I start many strategy books and then end up putting them down because I feel like there are ultimately primarily regurgitations or.
[25:48] SPEAKER_04: Yes, absolutely.
[25:49] SPEAKER_04: I know you're saying.
[25:50] Speaker UNKNOWN: 
[25:52] SPEAKER_04: So.
[25:53] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, fun.
[25:54] SPEAKER_01: You are mourning or a night person.
[25:59] SPEAKER_01: Probably more of a morning person.
[26:02] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, probably more of a morning person.
[26:05] SPEAKER_01: Really?
[26:06] SPEAKER_03: No, no, not like crazy early, but like I like to.
[26:11] SPEAKER_03: I like to get started or a little early in the day and probably up it like.
[26:14] SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
[26:16] SPEAKER_03: Seven.
[26:17] SPEAKER_03: Try to start a fight or something like that.
[26:20] SPEAKER_03: But I'm not the kind of guy that can work all hours into the night.
[26:23] SPEAKER_03: I can also probably be in wide law wouldn't have been.
[26:27] SPEAKER_03: What are the big difference for me?
[26:29] SPEAKER_04: I have to pick one word to describe who you are.
[26:33] SPEAKER_01: What would it be and why would you choose it?
[26:37] SPEAKER_01: One word to describe what I am.
[26:40] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
[26:40] SPEAKER_01: What's that?
[26:45] SPEAKER_01: Persistent?
[26:47] SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
[26:48] SPEAKER_01: That sounds pretty.
[26:50] SPEAKER_01: I'm not quick to give up on things.
[26:55] SPEAKER_04: Watch keeping you off at night.
[26:58] SPEAKER_01: These days.
[26:59] SPEAKER_01: I'm from a new child.
[27:01] SPEAKER_01: I'm going to say.
[27:02] SPEAKER_01: You're literally the newborn.
[27:05] SPEAKER_01: No, I think, you know, I'm.
[27:11] SPEAKER_03: You know, 99% of me right now.
[27:15] SPEAKER_03: My attention is just going into Liptub and launching.
[27:20] SPEAKER_03: And all the both like exciting opportunities,
[27:24] SPEAKER_03: but challenges that go with the launch of a new product.
[27:27] SPEAKER_03: You know, fortunately,
[27:28] SPEAKER_03: Liptub off of.
[27:31] SPEAKER_03: At least an established brand at this point being six years in.
[27:34] SPEAKER_03: But of course it comes with all the normal challenges.
[27:38] SPEAKER_03: And we're, you know.
[27:41] SPEAKER_03: One of the one of the things that keeps me up at night,
[27:44] SPEAKER_03: primarily is.
[27:48] SPEAKER_03: There are many markets that are showing interest right now outside of Hollywood.
[27:53] SPEAKER_03: And advertisers are showing a lot of interest.
[27:58] SPEAKER_03: They're signing a lot of online educators.
[28:01] SPEAKER_03: A lot of influencers are signing up all with all under the guys of localizing.
[28:06] SPEAKER_03: And then you also have folks that are using our APIs for non localization use cases.
[28:13] SPEAKER_03: So we have one API partner that's doing basically like UGC,
[28:19] SPEAKER_03: the user generated content on demand for brand.
[28:22] SPEAKER_03: So brand types of script and they get a video back immediately of an influencer.
[28:26] SPEAKER_03: Use it and they're leveraging our lip sync tech.
[28:29] SPEAKER_03: And so.
[28:31] SPEAKER_03: What keeps me up is just.
[28:33] SPEAKER_03: Who do we start with and why?
[28:35] SPEAKER_03: Because going back to what I just said about chasm crossing it's it's okay that we're.
[28:41] SPEAKER_03: It's okay that we're a little.
[28:43] SPEAKER_03: It's okay that we're a little all over the place right now.
[28:48] SPEAKER_03: But sooner or later, right,
[28:50] SPEAKER_03: we should really be honing in on.
[28:53] SPEAKER_03: And a particular customer type particular use case and it shouldn't be a big market.
[29:00] SPEAKER_03: And so.
[29:02] SPEAKER_03: Trying to.
[29:04] SPEAKER_03: Trying to just look at the day.
[29:06] SPEAKER_04: You really did read that book in detail.
[29:09] SPEAKER_03: Right.
[29:09] SPEAKER_03: Like.
[29:13] SPEAKER_03: You know, not that the academia sometimes the academia, you know,
[29:17] SPEAKER_03: you got to read it all with the grain of salt.
[29:18] SPEAKER_03: It's got to help me.
[29:19] SPEAKER_03: There's no framework that'll just slot perfectly onto your business.
[29:23] SPEAKER_03: You still have to use logic and figure out how does the framework truly apply to what I'm doing.
[29:28] SPEAKER_03: But yeah, it keeps me up at night.
[29:30] SPEAKER_03: It's just.
[29:31] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but what's the right sequencing?
[29:34] SPEAKER_03: What's the right sequencing of go to get in.
[29:38] SPEAKER_03: How does that inform the product decisions that we're making?
[29:40] SPEAKER_03: Because you can imagine it's a lot easier to build a product when you know exactly who you're building it for.
[29:46] SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
[29:46] SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
[29:48] SPEAKER_04: So final question.
[29:50] SPEAKER_04: What advice would you give an entrepreneur?
[29:53] SPEAKER_04: You know, this sort of starting out.
[29:55] SPEAKER_04: You know, about to start a business or wants to start a business.
[30:05] SPEAKER_02: I'd say probably like.
[30:09] SPEAKER_03: You know, I know that I know the logic many times is.
[30:14] SPEAKER_01: And you have to you have to jump off the cliff right away and start and leave your job and do whatever.
[30:24] SPEAKER_01: I'd honestly say that if you feel like you have a problem, that's worth solving.
[30:30] SPEAKER_03: I don't see anything wrong with hedging and spending some of those early cycles.
[30:36] SPEAKER_03: Really talking to customers and figuring out.
[30:39] SPEAKER_03: If that problem is indeed a painful problem, is that a frequent problem?
[30:45] SPEAKER_03: How big is this market?
[30:47] SPEAKER_03: How many users are there?
[30:49] SPEAKER_03: Because I think the hardest thing you can do as an entrepreneur is start something.
[30:53] SPEAKER_03: Well, if you're starting a business where you're solving a problem that really isn't a huge problem, you're just going to it's not going to be fun.
[31:03] SPEAKER_03: It's not going to be fun.
[31:04] SPEAKER_03: Selling is going to be very, very challenging.
[31:07] SPEAKER_03: Step one is you should be solving a problem that is real.
[31:10] SPEAKER_03: Users find it painful.
[31:12] SPEAKER_03: They deal with it frequently.
[31:13] SPEAKER_03: And ideally, there's a lot of users.
[31:15] SPEAKER_03: That second one is also equally important.
[31:19] SPEAKER_03: Well, no, I'd say problem is the most important.
[31:22] SPEAKER_03: But being total addressable market constrained also stinks.
[31:27] SPEAKER_03: It's tough.
[31:29] SPEAKER_03: You can do everything right, but at the end of the day, there's a ceiling now to how big you can grow.
[31:36] SPEAKER_03: And so my advice would be to really make sure that you're solving a painful problem.
[31:46] SPEAKER_03: And there's so much that you can bet without building anything.
[31:51] SPEAKER_03: I think that's one of the things that I've, like, that's really been ingrained in me over the years from where I started to now.
[31:57] SPEAKER_03: Where you don't have to worry about automation.
[32:00] SPEAKER_03: You don't even have to worry about building a product.
[32:01] SPEAKER_03: If you think you're solving a problem, put a design of a theoretical solution in front of those users.
[32:08] SPEAKER_03: See what they say to it, right?
[32:09] SPEAKER_03: Like there's so much that you can do with little to no resources to validate that the problem exists.
[32:16] SPEAKER_03: That it's painful that there's a lot of users that the theoretical solution you're wanting to build.
[32:21] SPEAKER_03: Users would start telling you that that would be helpful.
[32:24] SPEAKER_03: Like there's so much the risk you can do before leaving your job.
[32:29] SPEAKER_03: And what have you?
[32:32] SPEAKER_03: As opposed to, you know, I'd say like the the inverse of that would be leave your job right away.
[32:40] SPEAKER_03: Do very little market research, build some big fancy thing, and then start testing the market.
[32:45] SPEAKER_03: I think that's just, you know, unnecessary risk.
[32:50] SPEAKER_04: Good stuff there.
[32:52] SPEAKER_04: But we're at the end of our time here.
[32:57] SPEAKER_04: How can people get a hold of you online if they listen to this and I want to ask a couple of questions.
[33:04] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I'm pretty good with LinkedIn can hit me up on LinkedIn.
[33:08] SPEAKER_03: If you're interested in if there's a product need www.lip.ie.
[33:15] SPEAKER_03: That's the website.
[33:17] SPEAKER_03: And yeah, I'm pretty responsive on LinkedIn.
[33:20] SPEAKER_03: Okay. Thanks very much for coming on Canada's podcast.
[33:24] SPEAKER_04: We're really nice meeting you.
[33:26] SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Phil.