It helps to know that someone is in your corner to help solve challenges

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TRANSCRIPTION WITH SPEAKERS
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[00:00] SPEAKER_03: Welcome to Canada's podcast.
[00:05] SPEAKER_03: Everyone, I'm Phil Bliss, founder and Toronto host of Canada's podcast.
[00:12] SPEAKER_03: Today we're going to meet Helen Huang, co-founder of Co-Live and online school,
[00:19] SPEAKER_03: focused on helping non-traditional technologists gain confidence, credibility and community.
[00:26] SPEAKER_03: Helen studies an earth scientist, turned product manager, turned stock, founded.
[00:32] SPEAKER_03: After leaving her market company such as Zingha, Microsoft and GitHub, she now leads Co-Live.
[00:39] SPEAKER_03: Since 2020, Co-Live has graduated over 700 non-traditional technologists globally through its experiential learning programs,
[00:49] SPEAKER_03: with a majority being women, identifying and people of color.
[00:54] SPEAKER_03: Helen made the Forbes 30 under 30 list this year.
[00:59] SPEAKER_03: Helen, welcome to Canada's podcast.
[01:03] SPEAKER_03: It was kind of interesting.
[01:05] SPEAKER_03: We're talking about remote work.
[01:08] SPEAKER_03: We're both from Toronto, but I'm just outside of London at the moment.
[01:12] SPEAKER_03: You're London, UK, that is.
[01:14] SPEAKER_03: And you're in Brazil, so it just goes to show you how the world changes.
[01:20] SPEAKER_03: And we're both on Canada's podcast, but we're in different countries.
[01:25] SPEAKER_03: It's kind of a very different world than even when Canada's podcast started three and a half years, four years ago.
[01:32] SPEAKER_03: It's such a...
[01:35] SPEAKER_03: So just as I ask everyone,
[01:38] SPEAKER_03: before we get too deep into everything, why do you tell people a little bit about yourself,
[01:46] SPEAKER_03: what you do now, how you got there, that's really important.
[01:51] SPEAKER_03: And then we can go into some more questions.
[01:54] SPEAKER_00: Okay, awesome.
[01:55] SPEAKER_00: Well, excited to finally be chatting as well across multiple continents.
[02:03] SPEAKER_00: So happy that we're finally getting a chance to sort of connect and chat.
[02:08] SPEAKER_00: But yeah, hello everyone.
[02:09] SPEAKER_00: I am Helen.
[02:12] SPEAKER_00: And for my life history, I was actually born in China, and then I immigrated to Canada when I was seven years old with my parents.
[02:20] SPEAKER_00: So Canada or just right outside Toronto is really where I grew up.
[02:25] SPEAKER_00: I went to the University of Waterloo, where I actually studied earth sciences,
[02:30] SPEAKER_00: was not one of those kids that was very deep in engineering or the traditional,
[02:36] SPEAKER_00: like accounting that I feel like most immigrant parents will push you towards.
[02:42] SPEAKER_00: So I started earth sciences, but also realized that I didn't want to go into academia.
[02:47] SPEAKER_00: And so that's when I made the decision that, hey, I want to switch into tech.
[02:50] SPEAKER_00: So my first tech role was actually as a product manager at a company called Zingga,
[02:56] SPEAKER_00: based in SF, where I was working on mobile games as a PM.
[03:01] SPEAKER_00: And then after that, as my first forlay into the industry, I decided to go to Microsoft,
[03:08] SPEAKER_00: where I worked for around four and a bit years before coming back to Toronto and starting up my current company.
[03:15] SPEAKER_00: So now I run a company called Colab, where a online school that helps career switchers pivot into the industry, mainly because I have lived that problem before.
[03:26] SPEAKER_00: And so yeah, that's a little bit more about me again, coming from this sort of non technical non linear path,
[03:34] SPEAKER_00: as a young entrepreneur as well.
[03:37] SPEAKER_00: And now I'm, I guess, just like, working abroad and traveling and still trying to make whatever impact I can make and having fun along the way.
[03:47] SPEAKER_03: But I mean, you know, you work for Microsoft. I mean, you're doing well there.
[03:55] SPEAKER_03: Well, I'm really interested to, you know, most people would think, wow, I'm here. That's a great career.
[04:02] SPEAKER_03: I can do well. I can, I can innovate. I can, you know, the ride, the ride, the ride.
[04:09] SPEAKER_03: What, why go off on your own? You know, what do you think about? I mean, around, it was different.
[04:17] SPEAKER_03: I mean, do we have a different kind of thing going on?
[04:22] SPEAKER_00: So to be perfectly honest, I did not grow up wanting to become an entrepreneur.
[04:28] SPEAKER_00: And even now I don't necessarily gravitate towards the term entrepreneur.
[04:35] SPEAKER_00: She says being on Canada's number one podcast for entrepreneurs.
[04:41] SPEAKER_00: But no, that's because that's that's a really good question, right?
[04:44] SPEAKER_00: When I, I had a such a hard time pivoting into tech. And so when I landed my job at Microsoft and then later GitHub,
[04:52] SPEAKER_00: I felt super happy, right? It just felt like, oh, I've sort of made it, um, the great career, great industry, great companies.
[05:01] SPEAKER_00: Why, why not stay, right? And so I think for a lot of us, probably 2020 was definitely a year of change.
[05:10] SPEAKER_00: And so what actually happened, the realistic story of what actually happened was that I was in Seattle at the time and I decided,
[05:19] SPEAKER_00: okay, let me visit my parents, let me visit back home in Toronto.
[05:23] SPEAKER_00: So I went back hoping to only stay for about a month. I was working remotely at the time for GitHub.
[05:30] SPEAKER_00: Again, just sort of on a remote work trip.
[05:34] SPEAKER_00: When my friend who I had met during school, Shafoomi, he reshouts me and was like, hey, I'm doing this cool project.
[05:41] SPEAKER_00: Helen, why don't you help me with this project? That project was sort of the ethos or the beginning of what is now co-lapped.
[05:49] SPEAKER_00: And so at the time, it was just me interacting with a friend that I had worked on with, with, worked with on a few projects.
[05:55] SPEAKER_00: And then the more that we work together, the more that I helped him out with this project, the more I realized that, wow, okay, I'm one really liking the impact that we're making.
[06:06] SPEAKER_00: And two, I'm, I'm just really liking what I'm working on, right.
[06:11] SPEAKER_00: And so I ended up extending my work trip, right.
[06:15] SPEAKER_00: It probably like six months later, until I eventually realized that, wow, I'm working two full-time jobs.
[06:23] SPEAKER_00: And it is now time to decide between one or the other.
[06:27] SPEAKER_00: And even then, I wasn't a, wow, I really want to go off on my own.
[06:33] SPEAKER_00: I'm going to make a really clear, logical decision to quit.
[06:37] SPEAKER_00: It was that, hey, I was feeling exceptionally burnt out.
[06:40] SPEAKER_00: And I also realized that, well, if anything, I can always go back to having a job.
[06:45] SPEAKER_00: I can apply or go back to my old role.
[06:48] SPEAKER_00: And now is an opportunity for learning, right.
[06:51] SPEAKER_00: We have this momentum.
[06:52] SPEAKER_00: I'm loving working with my friend.
[06:54] SPEAKER_00: I'm loving sort of working with students.
[06:57] SPEAKER_00: And so what's not to, what's not to just try out.
[07:00] SPEAKER_00: And if anything, go back and reverse that decision.
[07:04] SPEAKER_00: And so it was sort of this like strong push, I guess.
[07:07] SPEAKER_00: And also a little bit of like, hey, you only live once.
[07:11] SPEAKER_00: I'm young.
[07:11] SPEAKER_00: And we can always be changing our minds.
[07:14] SPEAKER_00: And so I shouldn't go and give it a try.
[07:17] SPEAKER_03: But I mean, you know, you made the full study on the study.
[07:21] SPEAKER_03: You're, you're being colab is based on whatever that is amazingly successful.
[07:28] SPEAKER_03: Why?
[07:31] SPEAKER_01: Why is it successful?
[07:34] SPEAKER_00: Well, number one, I would like to call out that I definitely do my work to make the impact I want to to students that we work with.
[07:47] SPEAKER_00: I think the Forbes 30 under 30 list, super happy that we were able to make that list this year.
[07:54] SPEAKER_00: But that's just sort of a byproduct of the work that we've done, right.
[07:58] SPEAKER_00: I'm very excited and proud to be on it.
[08:00] SPEAKER_00: But I think that was a transition, like a mental reset that I also had to make.
[08:06] SPEAKER_00: But why?
[08:08] SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think again, we're a fully bootstrapped company.
[08:12] SPEAKER_00: So we're not venture backed.
[08:14] SPEAKER_00: We don't have external investors.
[08:16] SPEAKER_00: And I think that has really made us grow in a slow systematic way that actually makes sense and actually reflect X market demands.
[08:27] SPEAKER_00: And so with every iteration of our program and we're on iteration 20 right now.
[08:32] SPEAKER_00: So so far in the past two years, we've trained over 600 students around the world.
[08:37] SPEAKER_00: And that has allowed us to continue to change the program so that it's actually successful in terms of outcomes for our learners.
[08:45] SPEAKER_00: And we're also forced to do that because we can't experiment as fast as a VC back company either, right.
[08:52] SPEAKER_00: And that's just sort of the reality too.
[08:54] SPEAKER_00: And it just allows us to make slow progress that makes sense.
[08:59] SPEAKER_00: And so I would say that again, still much more progress to be made.
[09:03] SPEAKER_00: But that is really a big part of what has allowed us to grow and be successful.
[09:10] SPEAKER_03: So you know, what do you like most about this new entrepreneurial life, the leading?
[09:21] SPEAKER_01: Because you still have a new one.
[09:23] SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
[09:25] SPEAKER_00: I would say it's really the freedom.
[09:29] SPEAKER_00: I think it's definitely challenged me in a lot of ways in terms of being productive, but also defining productivity in my own way.
[09:39] SPEAKER_00: I think when you become a entrepreneur and that switch between working as part of an organization, whether it's small startups, too large multinational companies, like where I was working, you really do have to adopt this showing initiative.
[09:56] SPEAKER_00: You decide your fate kind of mentality.
[10:00] SPEAKER_00: And I think that comes with a lot of freedom.
[10:03] SPEAKER_00: It comes with a lot of stress because now you have no constraints, right.
[10:07] SPEAKER_00: And so you're making all of the decisions on your own.
[10:10] SPEAKER_00: But hey, it's a big part of what's allowed me to travel and work and set my own goals.
[10:16] SPEAKER_00: It's allowed me to learn the kind of team or company that it is that I want to be building.
[10:22] SPEAKER_00: And how that differs to the companies that I see today, right.
[10:25] SPEAKER_00: And how my own entrepreneurship experience and path might be different than the traditional one as well.
[10:31] SPEAKER_00: And so I think just sort of opening my mind to all of those possibilities has been the best part.
[10:40] SPEAKER_03: You've let board in the last couple of years.
[10:43] SPEAKER_03: Where do you see yourself in the next three to five years?
[10:48] SPEAKER_01: That's a really good question.
[10:51] SPEAKER_00: I think for me, just in general, I'm someone who is very open to new experiences.
[10:58] SPEAKER_00: I can't say that we'll be growing collab to a startup that's going to IPO.
[11:07] SPEAKER_00: Because that's not the path that me or my co-founder want to be on.
[11:11] SPEAKER_00: Again, I truly believe that education is such a unique space and market.
[11:16] SPEAKER_00: We can't run it like a SaaS tool in tech.
[11:20] SPEAKER_00: Because everyone learns the different way.
[11:23] SPEAKER_00: And so I want to continue the slow and sustainable growth that we've got going on,
[11:28] SPEAKER_00: one that still again optimizes for student outcomes.
[11:31] SPEAKER_00: And so I want to still sustainably grow.
[11:34] SPEAKER_00: And then on my end, I think one thing that we've done really well, Shibuya and I,
[11:40] SPEAKER_00: is recognizing the kind of company we want to build as well.
[11:43] SPEAKER_00: So both of us know that, okay, we might not be the core decision makers in our company for the rest of time.
[11:52] SPEAKER_00: Right. It's about finding the right fit for each of these roles.
[11:57] SPEAKER_00: And just letting our employees, letting our team sort of take over in the ways that they want to continue driving innovation forward.
[12:06] SPEAKER_00: And so I don't really know the answer to the next three to five years.
[12:10] Speaker UNKNOWN: 
[12:11] SPEAKER_02: That's a great question.
[12:13] SPEAKER_02: That's a really good answer.
[12:14] SPEAKER_00: Yeah. So that is my answer.
[12:16] SPEAKER_00: Because I don't have an answer.
[12:18] SPEAKER_00: That's okay.
[12:19] SPEAKER_00: But I'm optimizing.
[12:20] SPEAKER_00: That's a really good answer.
[12:22] Speaker UNKNOWN: 
[12:22] SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you.
[12:24] SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
[12:24] SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I'm optimizing for my own personal growth as well.
[12:27] SPEAKER_03: So do ask me about the challenges.
[12:30] SPEAKER_03: What do you see as the biggest challenging future as an entrepreneur?
[12:34] SPEAKER_03: Not just running coal out, but just as an entrepreneur.
[12:40] SPEAKER_00: Probably focus, focus and perseverance.
[12:44] SPEAKER_00: I mean, I don't necessarily want to say that they're active challenges for me right now.
[12:48] SPEAKER_00: But I think in general, these are things that I always have to remind myself of.
[12:55] SPEAKER_00: I think as an entrepreneur, you have all of these ideas, right?
[13:00] SPEAKER_00: But it always comes down to execution.
[13:02] SPEAKER_00: And it comes down to realizing that you might not have all the horsepower that you want to go and explore and experiment across all of these ideas and all of these different markets.
[13:12] SPEAKER_00: So where do you put your focus and how deeply can you make yourself believe that what you're doing is right and how long can you continue that for?
[13:27] SPEAKER_00: I think that's something that's really important to me as, hey, as someone who in college, my friends always told me, hey, Helen, you give up easily.
[13:35] SPEAKER_00: But as an entrepreneur, what I've realized is that, hey, you can't, you can't give up easier easily.
[13:42] SPEAKER_00: You know, it really is a game of messaging 200 people and getting one response and knowing that you're down and happy to continue doing that for a certain period of time because eventually it's going to land.
[13:57] SPEAKER_00: So I would say that so far, those have been the largest challenges for me as an entrepreneur and I can continue to sort of see that play out.
[14:07] SPEAKER_00: And so again, I'm certainly I have sticky notes everywhere that remind me that, hey, fall down seven, get up eight.
[14:14] SPEAKER_03: That's interesting. That's interesting. That's sort of where I was going, you know, with challenges, you know, how do you, you've just gone through probably two years of times of challenges.
[14:24] SPEAKER_03: Have you come? Have you had, is there, during this time, have you found a way of process that says, handle them? You may not have. I'm just curious, you know.
[14:39] SPEAKER_00: Have I found a process? Well, actually, there, there is one thing that I always do, which is talked to my business partner.
[14:48] SPEAKER_00: I think I'm really lucky that my co-founder, Shifu Mi is also one of my good friends.
[14:54] SPEAKER_00: And so we're, we're tackling entrepreneurship together, the way that we're tackling life stages together. Right.
[15:01] SPEAKER_00: And so every time that I encounter, you know, I'm feeling down, I feel demotivated, maybe something happened at work where I don't feel good about even my own performance.
[15:12] SPEAKER_00: I'm really grateful that, hey, he's someone that I can turn to to have a discussion with for the both of us to just continue to motivate each other and tell this path.
[15:21] SPEAKER_00: So no real process, I think, to solving the challenges, but it definitely helps to know that someone is in your corner and, you know, rooting for not just you as a business partner, but also you as a friend.
[15:35] SPEAKER_03: You know, looking at mentorship, just a little bit, you know, you know, what's the best piece of advice you've ever received, you know, that the stage where, you know, that it's there.
[15:51] SPEAKER_03: I've got one or two things that you even, even at my age, that the state that I've always fallen back on.
[15:59] SPEAKER_03: Is there anything on your front that you've fallen back on, I mean, it could have come from your mom or dad or whatever, or brother or whatever, you know, that kind of thing.
[16:11] SPEAKER_00: So I'm an only child, but born in China during the one child policy, actually.
[16:20] SPEAKER_00: But no, I actually do have one and this piece of advice came from one of my managers while I was still at Microsoft and he said that, you know, I think I had done a bad job at something and I was feeling not happy about it.
[16:36] SPEAKER_00: And he was like, hey, if you did things perfectly the first time life would be really boring.
[16:44] SPEAKER_00: And I don't think he said it and meant it as a piece of advice. It was just something he threw out there, but that sentence is something that I always come back to actually and I sometimes tell our students as well.
[16:57] SPEAKER_00: Because yeah, it's true. If we did everything correct the first time, there wouldn't be any challenges.
[17:03] SPEAKER_00: And life would be sort of boring, right? We wouldn't need to have these kinds of conversations where we discuss our learnings and our struggles.
[17:11] SPEAKER_00: But that is really what makes life fun as well and exciting and and gives us that sense of accomplishment, right?
[17:21] SPEAKER_00: So again, speaking to one of my challenges, which is perseverance, I'm definitely a perfectionist. I want things to go perfectly the first time around.
[17:30] SPEAKER_00: Right. And so thinking about that advice reminds me that well, one that's not realistic.
[17:35] SPEAKER_00: And everyone we see that has succeeded in some way, shape or form, not just as a founder, but just in anything in life as given in multiple shots.
[17:45] SPEAKER_00: And so it's just a reminder to me that, hey, I'm not any different. And if I want to achieve something, I'm going to try, I'm going to have to try hard and I'm going to have to fail until it eventually works.
[17:57] SPEAKER_03: That's a really good piece of that's that's great.
[18:00] SPEAKER_03: You know, you've been in it for two years, you bootstrap.
[18:07] SPEAKER_03: So what advice if somebody that's sort of kicking off as an entrepreneur and wants to start a business?
[18:17] SPEAKER_03: Is there something you can say it's real fresh in your mind that somebody could sort of pass on to them to help them.
[18:26] SPEAKER_03: Or they may be like, you are two and a half years ago or something, you know, just just pass on to them kind of thing.
[18:33] SPEAKER_00: I would say really actively thinking about how the kind of business that it is you want to run.
[18:41] SPEAKER_00: And recognizing that there are multiple types.
[18:45] SPEAKER_00: I think for me, just coming from a tech background, I always felt like, oh, a company, a startup, especially in the tech space needed to be, you know, you needed to raise a lot of money.
[18:56] SPEAKER_00: You needed external investors, you needed to grow as fast as you can and have that hockey stick growth.
[19:03] SPEAKER_00: But those are not the hallmarks of an entrepreneur, right?
[19:08] SPEAKER_00: An entrepreneur or a founder is anyone who's building something, it doesn't have to be a tech product, it can be a service, you can be selling soap.
[19:17] SPEAKER_00: You can be doing anything that really provides the impact that you're trying to provide.
[19:21] SPEAKER_00: And that can be done in a variety of ways.
[19:24] SPEAKER_00: And so I would, like, if I could tell myself again, I would really think about, hey, not trying to aspire to a definition of an entrepreneur, but rather defining it for myself and making sure that it fits with my life.
[19:38] SPEAKER_00: If you want to sustainably grow, then make sure that you're doing something where you can do that, right?
[19:46] SPEAKER_00: It'll help you identify the market, it'll help you make all sorts of decisions that actually allow you to continue in a sustainable way.
[19:54] SPEAKER_00: So I would say that is number one, and then number two, finding the right partners.
[19:59] SPEAKER_00: So even if you're going to go at it on your own in terms of starting a small business, it doesn't have to be a business partner necessarily, it could even just be a community, it can be a mentor, you know, it can be an individual, it can be a friend.
[20:14] SPEAKER_00: Having someone to sort of bounce ideas off of, but also to turn to and give a realistic answer when asked how's it going?
[20:23] SPEAKER_00: It's really important because if there's one thing I've realized is that, hey, entrepreneurship is a long term game, and you will want people around you that you can be honest with, and you don't have to love or BS or, you know, give a standard, oh, it's going great.
[20:40] SPEAKER_00: So many challenges. I'm loving it answer because that's just not the reality for anybody.
[20:47] SPEAKER_00: And I think finding that group of people who can help you with that and help you create connections and community, you'll move a lot faster as well.
[20:56] SPEAKER_03: Okay, some great stuff. Let's move on to some, what I don't rapid for our questions, come on, some more fun ones that we don't need to be quite so serious about, but that was pretty good serious stuff.
[21:08] SPEAKER_03: You started an earth sciences, you know, if you weren't doing what you're doing now, what would you be doing instead?
[21:16] SPEAKER_00: I would like to be a cold case detective.
[21:22] SPEAKER_00: I love research, I love investigations, I love human psychology, so that that is what I would prefer to do, actually.
[21:31] SPEAKER_03: So what book are you currently reading, listening to, I don't care what what's I, or what book would you recommend to the audience that they should grab hold on and read from cover to cover?
[21:45] SPEAKER_00: Actually, I would recommend, well, let me just quickly bring it out here, I'm using it currently as a laptop prop, but it's called a hundred and one, as safe that will change the way you think.
[21:56] SPEAKER_00: I really enjoyed this book, again, I don't enjoy normally reading long, long books, but this one is broken up into small short form essays and really does help, helps you think about a bunch of stuff similar as the title, so that is what I wouldn't recommend.
[22:16] SPEAKER_03: Maybe a morning or a night?
[22:18] SPEAKER_00: Definitely a night person.
[22:21] SPEAKER_03: Okay, you're one of the 20% because the others are all morning people.
[22:27] SPEAKER_03: Oh, there's, whether it's male, female thing or not, but I think it might be because it's interesting.
[22:36] SPEAKER_00: As in more females, like, like, people?
[22:40] SPEAKER_00: Oh, interesting.
[22:42] SPEAKER_03: I don't know, I've been to those a few because it's just suddenly dawned on me that.
[22:47] SPEAKER_03: Okay, if you had to be one word to describe yourself, what would it be and why?
[22:58] SPEAKER_01: Probably inclusive.
[23:00] SPEAKER_00: It would.
[23:02] SPEAKER_00: Because again, openness to new experiences also means openness to new cultures and new people.
[23:08] SPEAKER_00: And it's a big part of my personality to also make sure that everyone feels included and that they're accepted and that we're all open and we're all friends.
[23:18] SPEAKER_00: So that's probably what I would say.
[23:21] SPEAKER_03: So much keeping up at night.
[23:25] SPEAKER_00: Well, if I'm traveling, it's jet lag.
[23:29] SPEAKER_02: I got that.
[23:30] SPEAKER_00: Because so many different time zones, but right now what's keeping me up at night is probably the rapid progression of artificial intelligence and what that means for all of our roles.
[23:44] SPEAKER_03: Absolutely agree.
[23:45] SPEAKER_03: Deep in it.
[23:48] SPEAKER_03: It's in it, but I don't really know where it's going to end up.
[23:54] Speaker UNKNOWN: So it's interesting.
[23:58] SPEAKER_03: We're at the 30th.
[24:00] SPEAKER_03: It's always been so fast.
[24:02] SPEAKER_03: It's been fantastic.
[24:04] SPEAKER_03: We're actually at 25 minutes.
[24:06] SPEAKER_00: Oh, I was like, what really?
[24:08] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's been incredible fast.
[24:12] SPEAKER_03: So it's been great, great interview.
[24:16] SPEAKER_03: And I really enjoy it.
[24:18] SPEAKER_03: Thank you for coming on the canvas podcast and some great, great observations that I think will really help our audience basically.
[24:29] SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you for interviewing me and chatting with me just in general.
[24:34] SPEAKER_00: Honestly, this was a great time for me to also reflect on whether I'm a night person or a day person.
[24:41] SPEAKER_00: And now I sort of now I sort of want to know the answer to whether there's like a scientific reasoning behind any of us.
[24:49] SPEAKER_03: It's interesting.
[24:51] SPEAKER_03: You know, thanks.
[24:53] SPEAKER_03: Been great.
[24:54] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, awesome.