Glain Roberts-McCabe

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TRANSCRIPTION WITH SPEAKERS
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[00:00] SPEAKER_03: It's Toronto's podcast on the Canada's podcast network.
[00:17] SPEAKER_00: Hi everyone, I'm Sling Williams, an international speaker and business strategist,
[00:22] SPEAKER_00: and I'd like to welcome you to Toronto's podcast.
[00:25] SPEAKER_00: We are part of the Canada's podcast network, your source for great insights
[00:28] SPEAKER_00: for entrepreneurs from across Canada.
[01:04] SPEAKER_00: I'm excited to be here.
[01:08] SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me.
[01:09] SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
[01:11] SPEAKER_00: I'd love for you to start and just tell us a little bit about your background and how you got to where you are with the roundtable.
[01:21] SPEAKER_03: Well, I was born and I'm kidding.
[01:23] SPEAKER_03: I won't start way back there, but I was born in the UK and moved to Canada.
[01:28] Speaker UNKNOWN: 
[01:28] SPEAKER_03: When I was nine years old, because my dad was hired to coach the Canadian rugby team.
[01:35] SPEAKER_03: Well, he was actually hired to coach the coaches of the Canadian rugby team.
[01:38] SPEAKER_03: And I guess I start there because I think that I think when you move when you're little at a young age,
[01:45] SPEAKER_03: and we'd actually moved a couple of times even before I was nine, you know,
[01:48] SPEAKER_03: so to have that experience of starting at new schools, certainly when we moved to Canada in 1977,
[01:54] SPEAKER_03: it was very much like culture shock.
[01:56] SPEAKER_03: It was like a whole different experience than I think if you were to visit England now, you'd see a McDonald's,
[02:03] SPEAKER_03: you'd see a Burger King.
[02:04] SPEAKER_03: When we came in 1977, we had none of that kind of American culture in the UK.
[02:11] SPEAKER_03: So that I think very early on, bread in me sort of an independence.
[02:17] SPEAKER_03: And so when I looked going into my career, I started my career.
[02:24] SPEAKER_03: I always thought I was going to be a creative director at an ad agency.
[02:27] SPEAKER_03: I'd gone through and got a diploma and creative advertising.
[02:31] SPEAKER_03: That's what I was going to do.
[02:33] SPEAKER_03: And then realized that, you know, they didn't pay very well.
[02:38] SPEAKER_03: I was going to have to work really long hours.
[02:41] SPEAKER_03: I was going to really start at the bottom and work my way up to the top.
[02:44] SPEAKER_03: And also at the same time when I was at that agency, I, or sorry, when I graduated from school,
[02:54] SPEAKER_03: I had, my parents had actually moved back to the UK.
[02:57] SPEAKER_03: So I was in Canada by myself.
[02:59] SPEAKER_03: And I needed to get a job.
[03:03] SPEAKER_03: Like that's what was really the most paramount thing in my world.
[03:07] SPEAKER_03: So I ended up kind of taking a job at a daily newspaper, hating it.
[03:13] SPEAKER_03: Like within a year knowing this was not for me.
[03:16] SPEAKER_03: And through the course of my 20s, wound my way through a series of jobs lasting,
[03:21] SPEAKER_03: you know, a couple of years here and a couple of years there.
[03:24] SPEAKER_03: Until by the, I think I was about 27 and I started doing some training for the company that I was then working with.
[03:31] SPEAKER_03: And I really started getting fascinated in adult education, training, thinking about kind of bringing that into kind of the next.
[03:43] SPEAKER_03: I guess phase of my career, which is kind of a weird thing to say when you're only 27 at the time,
[03:48] SPEAKER_03: but started looking to branch out into that.
[03:51] SPEAKER_03: And that was a real kind of pivotal piece for me was to start to move into this more teaching adult learning type of world.
[04:00] SPEAKER_03: And so started by going into customer service training, worked for a company,
[04:05] SPEAKER_03: and Toronto moved from Ottawa to Toronto to work for this customer service training that was very focused in the tourism industry.
[04:11] SPEAKER_03: And then one day I had one of my clients look at me and say, you know what, you should be in sales.
[04:18] SPEAKER_03: And people had been saying that to me for years.
[04:20] SPEAKER_03: And I had always really bucked against it.
[04:22] SPEAKER_03: I did not see myself as a sales person.
[04:25] SPEAKER_03: I had this view, I think, of for people who are listening, her maybe of my vintage, the Herb Tarlyck from WKRP and Cincinnati,
[04:32] SPEAKER_03: kind of sales person with a plaid jacket.
[04:35] SPEAKER_03: But I think at that moment in my career, I was looking for something different.
[04:39] SPEAKER_03: And she had worked for a consulting firm that focused in the space of leadership development and made an intro and being,
[04:47] SPEAKER_03: ended up being hired by them to be their first official sales person.
[04:51] SPEAKER_03: They had kind of more of a consulting model.
[04:54] SPEAKER_03: And that was a, was a incredible opportunity for me because for the first time in my career, by that point,
[05:01] SPEAKER_03: I've been leading teams for several years.
[05:04] SPEAKER_03: But I'd worked in smaller companies that were either not for profit or didn't have big budgets.
[05:10] SPEAKER_03: And so it really done any leadership development I'd done had been on my own.
[05:14] SPEAKER_03: And now here I was at this consultancy that was super focused on leadership.
[05:20] SPEAKER_03: And they had an assessment practice and a coaching practice and, you know, training workshops coming at the, you know, all ends of this spectrum.
[05:28] SPEAKER_03: And we used to host these really big thought leader conferences where we'd have people like Stephen Covey and Ken Blanchard and Marshall Goldsmith and all Tom Peters.
[05:38] SPEAKER_03: Everybody you could name once you would speak.
[05:41] SPEAKER_03: So for me on a personal level, this was, this was drinking from the leadership fire hose.
[05:47] SPEAKER_03: I was able to deep dive into my own leadership.
[05:50] SPEAKER_03: I started to realize all the ways that, you know, I think, you know, you have blind spots as leaders.
[05:57] SPEAKER_03: There is even when you think you know yourself, there's always, you don't have the view to what your impact is on other people.
[06:03] SPEAKER_03: But, you know, they use 360 tools. So I was assessed and at 360s and tons of feedback and decided to become a coach.
[06:10] SPEAKER_03: I wanted to explore coaching. So I did coach coaching program with the coaches training institute.
[06:17] SPEAKER_03: And through all of that, I started to really get fascinated with two things.
[06:23] SPEAKER_03: One, I got really fascinated with high potential leaders, people who were moved through their organizations very quickly, who had a lot of responsibility thrust on them, who were your typical type A personality.
[06:36] SPEAKER_03: Probably because that was me. I'd managed to burn myself out a couple of times in jobs before landing at this firm.
[06:43] SPEAKER_03: And then I also got really fascinated with the power of peer groups.
[06:48] SPEAKER_03: My, the owner of the company that I worked for was a member of a peer group, per CEOs.
[06:55] SPEAKER_03: And through the course of my career there, I had been promoted to become managing partner, running the Toronto office for this gentleman.
[07:03] SPEAKER_03: And I started wanting a group for me. I wanted to find a group of peers that I could connect with and talk to about leadership.
[07:10] SPEAKER_03: And at the time, this was going back to like, you know, 2000, 2001, there really wasn't anything out there.
[07:18] SPEAKER_03: There was lots of stuff for CEOs. There was lots of stuff for entrepreneurs.
[07:22] SPEAKER_03: But there wasn't anything for what I was classifying as a mid-career leader.
[07:26] SPEAKER_03: Somebody was sort of between 30 and 45 on the fast track. How do you connect with other people?
[07:31] SPEAKER_03: Your director of VP or, you know, I was, you know, managing partner.
[07:34] SPEAKER_03: Where was my tribe? And so that really led, I got more and more interested in that.
[07:40] SPEAKER_03: And I kind of really like the idea of leaders teaching leaders.
[07:43] SPEAKER_03: That is not the model of consulting firm. You know, consulting firm model is all about, you know, we've got the expertise and we're going to send our experts in.
[07:51] SPEAKER_03: And I really wanted to look at how leaders could work together and support each other and grow together.
[07:57] SPEAKER_03: And so ended up leaving there went to a women's organization that had some of those components.
[08:04] SPEAKER_03: Another entrepreneur, you know, led company. So I was running the business for that individual.
[08:11] SPEAKER_03: And it was really in that moment. I started one of the things that they were doing was they had peer groups for senior executive women.
[08:19] SPEAKER_03: And so I got into that, you know, working in that space with these women and realizing that a lot of the hunches I had when I was working for the consulting firm were really true.
[08:31] SPEAKER_03: What I found was leaders were very lonely, quite isolated, had a lot of issues that they just really wanted to talk through in a safe environment.
[08:41] SPEAKER_03: And that the expertise that you have, you learn leadership by doing, you don't learn it by reading it in a binder.
[08:47] SPEAKER_03: You, you know, you have to experience it. But boy, could you ever shortcut the learning curve if you were around other smart, capable, intelligent in this case it was women.
[08:58] SPEAKER_03: So I lasted there for about six months because at the same time what was happening within me was I always knew that one of my big value systems was around independence and freedom and autonomy.
[09:12] SPEAKER_03: And I had been wanting to have my own business for years and was always incredibly afraid to take that leap.
[09:21] SPEAKER_03: But myself in the situation at this women's network where it became untenable and I had no choice. And I think sometimes that's what life serves up for you is that you're, you know, fear holds you back.
[09:34] SPEAKER_03: And then if you don't make a move eventually, the move will be made on your behalf, right. And that's kind of what happened to me.
[09:43] SPEAKER_03: So put my job and I started what was then called the executive round table. We now go by the round table to simplify it.
[09:50] SPEAKER_03: But with the vision of creating a place where leaders who were going through transition. So you're taking on figure scope, your company's growing like crazy. And you are having to adapt in real time to manage that growth.
[10:05] SPEAKER_03: So I wanted to work with leaders like that that were that type a high value employee in the organization and do it in a way that involved peer groups, group learning, group coaching, peer mentorship.
[10:20] SPEAKER_03: And so that's what I've done. So the round table is an organization that works with leaders at all levels. That's kind of we've expanded our mandate to support high potential leaders whether you're early stage career or later stage career.
[10:35] SPEAKER_03: But the way we do it is to help you understand what are the behaviors that are going to allow you to be successful. But also how do you build the skills of collaboration and interconnectedness, which is so critical today at work.
[10:51] SPEAKER_03: So with three main kind of programs and they all sort of focus around that theme.
[10:59] SPEAKER_00: So first of all, that's fascinating journey. And I appreciate you sharing all of that because I think it's really valuable. A lot of our listeners are entrepreneurs themselves or looking to start businesses.
[11:10] SPEAKER_00: So I think it's really valuable to know that most of us who are entrepreneurs have not taken a linear path.
[11:20] SPEAKER_00: So I really appreciate that. And when you start, I'm going to go back to when you started the round table, you mentioned that you had some fears and then you know who worked through them and started this business.
[11:33] SPEAKER_00: When you started it, what were some of your challenges that you had to overcome? And what, was there anything that you weren't expecting that showed up or that you had to deal with?
[11:46] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean, I think for me, I'm just to give everybody context. So my daughter, when I did leave my full time employment, I left it literally on my 39th birthday. I walked out the door. I remember I felt like I was firing files of people as I was walking at the door of this company. It was crazy.
[12:02] SPEAKER_03: And my daughter had just turned three. My husband had been a stay-at-home father from the time she was three months old.
[12:11] SPEAKER_03: So literally when I was walking at the door, I was walking away from a salary. Our entire family went from having a six-figure salary to a zero-figure salary overnight.
[12:22] SPEAKER_03: And I think that fear as being somebody who's been living on her own since she was 19, actually I left home when I was 17. So self-supporting since I was 17 years old to have no income and a mortgage in a house in downtown Toronto that was all built around my salary.
[12:42] SPEAKER_03: My husband at the time was a frontline social worker. So as much as he could get a job fairly quickly because he's in demand, the income potential is extremely capped in that space.
[12:56] SPEAKER_03: And so we really, I would say in the first 12 months, the fears that I had to overcome were really financial stability fears. And I can remember the first, because I quit in January, my birthdays in January, and I can remember from January to May, I felt like I was just doing whatever I could to figure out how to make this work.
[13:26] SPEAKER_03: Whatever you need to do, I can do for you because I didn't plan this was I didn't have a clear idea of what I wanted to do with the business. I just had this feeling that I wanted to help mid-care leaders that were high potentials. I didn't know how I was going to do that. So I think some people I would never recommend this to anybody doing what I did.
[13:45] SPEAKER_03: Because it was it was so stressful that way. And I think the fear that I had to overcome was could I do this. I had done those on, you know, those online assessments that you do that tell you if you should be an entrepreneur.
[13:56] SPEAKER_03: And one of the questions it asks you is, were your parents entrepreneurs, right? Because apparently I guess if you had parents who were entrepreneurs, you have a better shot at becoming one yourself.
[14:06] SPEAKER_03: All of those assessments, like I felt like I failed. I did okay on this boring. But if I were to listen to those, you know, and they're all done by banks too. So maybe that's the kicker is it was all these bank websites doing these assessments.
[14:20] SPEAKER_03: I wouldn't I think I wouldn't have done it. But I had that little voice in my head that was like, you're a good number two person like you're good at supporting other entrepreneurs, but you can't start something from scratch.
[14:30] SPEAKER_03: Like you wouldn't be good at bootstrapping it. Those were a lot of the things that my inner critic was telling me at that time.
[14:37] SPEAKER_03: And I can remember the turning point for me was I had gone to the Toronto Business Development Center because I think I stumbled across a ad for them on understanding GST at the time. Now it's a GST.
[14:50] SPEAKER_03: And so it was an evening course and I went to it and I didn't know anything about the Toronto Business Development Center. I didn't know about business incubators. I didn't know anything.
[15:02] SPEAKER_03: And I was there to learn about HST and the woman who was teaching the program started talking about this business startup program that they had that you could apply for.
[15:13] SPEAKER_03: And I went up to her at the end of the course and I said, I'm really interested in this business startup program because what it did was in 10 weeks it helped you build out a business plan. And I thought, I need that I need that accountability. I need that structure.
[15:26] SPEAKER_03: And I and I knew that was going to be a way for me to overcome my fear. Like I knew if I had a plan, it would be I would be able to push through that.
[15:34] SPEAKER_03: And the income piece, it was funded by the government. So you could actually get unemployment insurance as you were going through the program.
[15:45] SPEAKER_03: So it was it was great. It was funny because they'd actually already enrolled. They've like you had to go through three gates and they'd already gone completed the first gate.
[15:53] SPEAKER_03: And she said to me, you know what, come in early in the morning, talk to this guy, tell him, give pitch him your idea and see if he'll let you integrate to.
[16:03] SPEAKER_03: And that's what I did. I got there at the session was supposed to start at nine. I got there at eight the next day. And I corralled this guy. And I gave him this really like high level.
[16:13] SPEAKER_03: I have this idea. It's for peer leadership groups and corporations. And we needed and he's like, okay, come on. And I think I warmed down and he let me come in. And then I applied and I got accepted in that program.
[16:24] SPEAKER_03: And I think the thing as I'm talking, I think the thing that really helped me was that forward momentum. Right. You can sit at home and worry about your fears or you can actually take action and do something about it.
[16:38] SPEAKER_03: And I think I had my pity party for sure. There were days where I was like, what have I done and how am I never going to be able to figure this out.
[16:45] SPEAKER_03: But once you can start getting some forward momentum, I find the fears are easier to kind of overcome and clobber.
[16:51] SPEAKER_00: I think that's a really great point that the reality is that when we're building momentum, we're building confidence.
[16:58] SPEAKER_00: And we think that we have to start with the confidence to build the momentum, but it's actually the other way around.
[17:03] SPEAKER_00: 100% by joining this program and creating this business plan, you are building momentum, which builds your confidence, which then puts you out in the world with that confidence already there, having the momentum knowing that you can keep going.
[17:18] SPEAKER_00: I love that you found that program also that you were persistent enough to show up and convince that man that you needed to join it.
[17:26] SPEAKER_03: Well, and I think I think the other part of your question was sort of, you know, the piece around you have to constantly be nimble and adjust.
[17:36] SPEAKER_03: You think you're going to go somewhere and it may not work out that way. And I think what I see is a lot of people.
[17:42] SPEAKER_03: So I think if I was the kind of person that had been told, well, we've already done an intake and the next intake isn't for another four months.
[17:50] SPEAKER_03: I think there's some people that would go, OK, whereas I'm the kind of person that the more you tell me I can't do something or the more that I have that sort of competitive piece, which I think has served me well as an entrepreneur, which is, OK, well, then how do I get around this?
[18:06] SPEAKER_03: This is a challenge. How do I get around this? So I think, you know, one of the things that I think about for a lot of people is they take no for an answer too quickly.
[18:16] SPEAKER_03: And they often confine themselves into whatever is being put out rather than thinking, OK, is there another way around this?
[18:28] SPEAKER_03: Like, don't always accept what somebody has said to you. It's like if you had a horrible health diagnosis from a doctor, I think there's some people that go, OK, that's my, that's my lot in life.
[18:39] SPEAKER_03: Or are you going to go and get a second opinion and a third opinion and a fourth opinion? Because this is your life, right? So I think that for me that if I think about other entrepreneurs that are trying to just know you might have to zig, right?
[18:51] SPEAKER_03: Like you think you're going to be zagging down here? No, no, you might have to zig every once in a while and go in another direction and try something else.
[18:57] SPEAKER_03: I mean, when I was in that business program, I went in with this view of creating these peer groups that were going to be, you know, leaders coming together from different companies and working together.
[19:08] SPEAKER_03: I got halfway through my business plan. I realized, this is going to take me a really long time to scale. And I need cash flow. I need to be making money fast.
[19:17] SPEAKER_03: So I actually re-did my entire business plan and I and I actually launched with a very different offering than where the business is now. I got, I eventually got to where I wanted to get to.
[19:29] SPEAKER_03: But I actually had to start from another place because of the practicality of I needed money, right? I had a little goal. I needed to make $2,000 a month to cover the cost gap between my husband salary and what we needed to do to cover the bills.
[19:46] SPEAKER_03: Not between my old salary, just what we needed to do to pay the mortgage. So I think, you know, you have to also be flexible. I think when you're starting a business and be willing to shift direction when and face the reality of what you're facing, right?
[20:04] SPEAKER_00: 100%. It's amazing to me how many entrepreneurs don't. They want to just pursue whatever idea they started with and not take the feedback or adjust as they get more information or realize things.
[20:18] SPEAKER_00: It becomes that my original idea is still the best idea and I want to just pursue that. And I think what you're saying is so valuable because it is really important to be flexible and be nimble and be open to that might still be a great idea, but that might not be the now idea.
[20:37] SPEAKER_03: Well, I think too for me, I had a real clear line in my brain, right? So I had what I used to call my bread and butter work, right? So I needed to bring in income. So what was my, what were my skill sets? Well, I'd been a senior executive for many years. I could, I had a background in sales, customer service, dabbled in marketing a bit, but anything. And of course, I had this leadership experience from the consulting firm. So I
[21:06] SPEAKER_03: had this little consulting practice on the side that was, hey, I could come in and I could do a, you know, start planning day with your team. I could come in and do a customer audit for you. I could do some employee interviews for engagement.
[21:22] SPEAKER_03: So I actually got a few clients where I was working with, and they were actually other entrepreneurs, whereas helping with them, them with some of those systems that, you know, is a small entrepreneurial company you tend not to think about like the people side of your business.
[21:34] SPEAKER_03: So I was doing that for bread and butter work. I was on retainers with a few clients. I go in a day and week did it. But I always used to say to people, that's not the round table.
[21:44] SPEAKER_03: The round table is over here. And this is what the round table is all about. And my website was only about the round table. It wasn't about my bread and butter work. It was just about the round table.
[21:55] SPEAKER_03: And what I see sometimes is people feel like they can't water it down, right? They feel like they have to go all in on one. Meanwhile, they're not paying their bills, they're rocking up the credit cards, they're under a lot of stress and strain. And I think, you know what, until you can get this up enough the ground, unless you have like a nice fat, you know,
[22:14] SPEAKER_03: a bunch of money saved in the bank account or somebody who's going to be your, you know, benefactor. If you need to pay the bills, you've got to be realistic. But there's nothing wrong with saying to people, sure, I can do this for you because I like you and I can help you out with this.
[22:29] SPEAKER_03: But my real, or my real business or what I'm going to be focusing my energy on is sitting over here and let me tell you about that. I honestly think you can manage that conversation. And I do think that's something that I see a lot of entrepreneurs put themselves in a lot of pain and get into a lot of debt because they're afraid that it'll water down their message or it'll be too complicated.
[22:51] SPEAKER_03: But if you're not interested, or they do the worst thing, which is they actually mush everything together and seem like they're trying to be everything to everybody. Now I'm in a services based business. So that's, you know, kind of the slippery slope of services businesses generally.
[23:05] SPEAKER_03: But that would be my advice is if you need cash flow work, get your cash flow. Maybe that's a part time job. Like, you know, for me, it was part time gigs, but, you know, don't be so worried about the purity of your your main business idea if you also need to be paying your bills.
[23:23] SPEAKER_00: We need to survive, right? Yeah. Now I, we don't in my opinion, and it sounds like you would agree with this and what I'm hearing what you're saying is that there's no point to take on the hardship of suffering to become an entrepreneur.
[23:39] SPEAKER_00: 100% and be an entrepreneur. You can have your niche. You can focus on a thing. And while until the point where that thing, whatever it is, is making you enough money to support yourself in a way that you are comfortable with.
[23:51] SPEAKER_03: It's okay to do other things. Yeah. And I think the other thing too, which you make me think of is that I think in the entrepreneurial community, there's a lot of myths that are out there.
[24:04] SPEAKER_03: You know, like if you're not working 24 seven, you're not really an entrepreneur. Like you have to be hustling. You have to be pouring yourself into your job seven days a week, especially in the early years. That's what people will tell you.
[24:18] SPEAKER_03: I absolutely do not subscribe to that. Like I think that these sorts of things. And if you're not a million dollar, you know, if you're, if you're not a seven figure business, you're not really an entrepreneur.
[24:29] SPEAKER_03: Right. Like there's a lot of things within the entrepreneur, the entrepreneurial community that are falsehoods. And I think you have to decide when you go into business, what works for you?
[24:40] SPEAKER_03: Like I'm, you know, I've built a business. I have a team here. We have bricks and mortar. We're, you know, the whole nine yards.
[24:47] SPEAKER_03: That's because that's what I wanted. You know, I enjoy having that. I like leading a business. I'd done it before. I'd spent 10 years doing that for two other entrepreneurs.
[24:58] SPEAKER_03: So for me, that is, that is my comfort space. Whereas I'll see other people feel this pressure that they have to build out something.
[25:06] SPEAKER_03: When in fact, what they actually love doing is the work. So do the work. Why do you have to have a team? You know, you probably, well, that limits my ability to make a lot of money.
[25:16] SPEAKER_03: Well, how much money do you need to make? What's enough? Right. And if you're sacrificing your family and you're sacrificing, you know, the time you want to spend doing things that are important to you, that's not living.
[25:28] SPEAKER_03: You know, you're just being a slave to this company that you're trying to create, right? So I think for a new entrepreneurs or even people who are caught up, like I work with a lot of people who've had businesses for 10 years.
[25:40] SPEAKER_03: And they'll say, me, all I haven't taken a vacation in 10 years. Like, are you insane? How can you possibly be productive without taking time off? I don't get it. Right. But it's like we wear it as a badge. Right. Oh, I'm so, you know, and I think those people with teams, especially, and they say, oh, I haven't taken a vacation in 10 years.
[25:58] SPEAKER_03: You know, I have to be there for my team to me. And I'm in the space of leadership. I go, well, then you're, you're doing something wrong because if you can't leave your team alone for two weeks or three weeks, you've got to look really closely at that.
[26:11] SPEAKER_00: Well, you're the bottleneck in the business or the bottleneck in your team, if that's the case. And you're a percent. That's not healthy. And by the way, I could not agree with you more. I really, I'm very, I get very frustrated with the mantra of hustle harder.
[26:24] SPEAKER_00: And do more pay attention to all these things. And I think that busyness as a badge of honor is destructive. I don't think it's productive at all.
[26:37] SPEAKER_00: And I am always whenever I see people out there speaking about it, I get very frustrated. I think it's a really bad message for new and established entrepreneurs.
[26:46] SPEAKER_03: I do too. And it just makes you feel less than right. Like I think we're always sort of, you know, it's this comparison piece. You know, I was once in an entrepreneurial group where they made you post your monthly sales numbers.
[26:59] SPEAKER_03: Well, everybody's sales cycle is different. Maybe if you're in a product-based business, you're going to have predictable revenue every month. But how is, how is me posting that I didn't invoice anything for the month of August to my peers?
[27:13] SPEAKER_03: I use full exercise. If you're not motivated that way, if that's not like, and I'm comparing apples to, you know, pecans, like there is nothing the same between my business and your business.
[27:26] SPEAKER_03: How is this useful? Right. And yet we create these kind of, you know, systems with entrepreneurs. And I think this over emphasis on making money, making money, making money.
[27:37] SPEAKER_03: It's kind of like, I think about when I was in corporate and, you know, you'd get the promotion and you'd get the new title and you'd get the increase. And then you'd get all the increased responsibility.
[27:47] SPEAKER_03: And you know what? That title and promotion that knew money that you got, the rosy glow of that lasts for maybe a month. Right after free page. And then you are sucked into the reality. Well, it's no different.
[28:02] SPEAKER_03: Like if you can be comfortable doing, you know, $300,000 a year or $100,000 a year or two, if that's what you need to be happy and successful in your business, you're a success.
[28:12] SPEAKER_03: You don't need to compare it to somebody who's, you know, making $15 million in their business a year. And then it's working seven days a week and is miserable and is on their third marriage. And it's, you know, like, how we define success for ourself.
[28:25] SPEAKER_03: I think as entrepreneurs in particular, you have to get really clear on your values and you have to get really clear what's important to you because there's a lot of noise out there that will tell you that you're not good enough.
[28:36] SPEAKER_03: If you're not trying to grow and you're not trying to conquer the world. And I, I don't buy that. Right. I just don't buy that.
[28:42] SPEAKER_00: It's a lot of the, and this is for people in corporate as well. It's not only for entrepreneurs, but a lot of the marketing and language is so based on scarcity and comparing.
[28:53] SPEAKER_00: And when you're supposed to things together, it's toxic. Yeah. How do you, how do you live up to any of that? And if you're not clear on what success is for you, if you're not clear on what you want your life to look like and what matters.
[29:05] SPEAKER_00: Then the minute you see someone doing it differently who is making more money or doing better or has more celebrity.
[29:13] SPEAKER_00: You say, well, that's not, I'm not good enough. And I need to get to that. And it happens.
[29:18] SPEAKER_00: Like I said, with entrepreneurs and with executives and leaders, right? Like there's everybody.
[29:23] SPEAKER_00: Everybody. And so I agree. I mean, I think that starting with what matters to you and what you want your life to look like and recognizing that it can change and checking in on it every year or whatever.
[29:35] SPEAKER_03: Your cycle is really, really important. Yeah. And I think so many best. I was, it's funny because I was just doing a session last week with one of our groups.
[29:43] SPEAKER_03: And we use the tool that looks at your energy, right? And where do you get energy from what gives you energy?
[29:49] SPEAKER_03: And it was interesting. I was reflecting on it because the way this tool works is when you're very high side on certain energies, you're in the bias zone, right?
[30:00] SPEAKER_03: So you have mindset biases around things. And you're so hard wired for you that you actually don't really understand how extreme things are, right?
[30:10] SPEAKER_03: And the way you're looking at the world is so extreme. And so I think for a lot of people, we go through life without that level of self awareness, right?
[30:19] SPEAKER_03: So if you don't have access to that, if you're just kind of living your life, you can repeat patterns. You can self sabotage, not even realize you're doing it.
[30:28] SPEAKER_03: I think, I think for me, for any entrepreneur, any leader, one of the greatest gifts you can give yourself is this ongoing drive for self insight.
[30:40] SPEAKER_03: Because the more you understand about yourself, the more you're going to start to recognize those patterns, like I have a very high drive to win.
[30:47] SPEAKER_03: And so as I'm saying to you know, this comparison, I can talk about it, but let me tell you, it's one of the things I struggle with, right?
[30:54] SPEAKER_03: When I hear other people's success, I'm happy for them, sure I am, but do I sit there and go, why haven't I got to that yet?
[31:02] SPEAKER_03: And then what happens is when when I do achieve success, it's actually hard for me to enjoy it because I, you know, it's that that self sabotaging side of like,
[31:14] SPEAKER_03: oh, do I really deserve this? I don't know if I worked hard enough for this. Maybe they had a bad year that year, and that's why I won the award and nobody else won the award.
[31:23] SPEAKER_03: You know, you start to create this pattern within yourself. So I think the thing that we can all do for ourselves is continuously look at, you know, yeah, step back, assess, how am I feeling now?
[31:35] SPEAKER_03: But if you don't understand what's underneath what's driving those feelings, you can find yourself kind of in repeating patterns or, or spinning and not understanding why.
[31:44] SPEAKER_03: So I think that's a gift that really an investment. I'm always surprised that the number of people who don't invest in themselves, right?
[31:51] SPEAKER_03: They, you know, well, I was in university in like 1986 and it's like, what have you done since then, though, like, this is an ongoing journey.
[32:00] SPEAKER_03: So continuing to develop and invest in yourself for me, that is job security, whether you're a leader in an organization or an entrepreneur, that's going to give you security, because you're going to be able to pivot when you need to.
[32:16] SPEAKER_00: I continue with learning, right? We're not hopefully, you know, I'm sure there are some exceptions, but hopefully most of us are changing and growing day by day, year by year.
[32:28] SPEAKER_00: So to assume that, you know, what we knew in 1986 when we graduated university, that that that static knowledge of that space is going to work the same way for us 20 years later or 30 years later is to me doesn't seem to make a lot of sense.
[32:45] SPEAKER_03: Well, I think there's a lot of people I had somebody once say to me, oh, I know exactly who I am. I'm completely self aware. I know everything about myself.
[32:53] SPEAKER_03: And I'm thinking number one, I think that's the biggest lie that anybody could ever tell themselves like I learn about myself every single day.
[33:03] SPEAKER_03: There's a new aspect that I'm like, oh, hey, that's interesting. So I think there's that. But the other thing too is I can I just actually had this conversation earlier this morning with a group.
[33:12] SPEAKER_03: I said, I could list you all of the behaviors that I have that are really annoying and that as a leader difficult and I'm hyper aware I've done more assessments and I think most people will ever do in their lifetime.
[33:25] SPEAKER_03: But knowing what it is and then doing something about it, that's a very wide gap. And that's the thing. So there's plenty of people that would say, I know, I know I'm short tempered or I'm I'm impatient or I'm the same that, okay, so you know something. So what are you doing about it?
[33:41] SPEAKER_03: And we will justify are those sorts of things because we've been getting results and we think we're doing a good job and it's got us to where we have gotten to no question that is that was going to help you get ahead in the future and based on what you're trying to do and based on what your business needs or what your team needs or what your family needs.
[34:02] SPEAKER_03: I mean, because this doesn't work in isolation all this stuff goes across our lives, right? It's not just a bit how we're showing up work wise, but how we show up with our families too. And I think that's what I notice I know so a lot of people very proud to tell you, you know, well, I know I'm the swam that way, but they don't do anything about it.
[34:21] SPEAKER_00: Absolutely. And so this makes me curious if you had advice to give to leaders or entrepreneur, you have the opportunity to give them a piece of advice. What would it be?
[34:41] SPEAKER_03: I think it would be that get to know yourself really, really dig deep into who you are, right? Understand what your motivators are because your motivators are going to be driving your behavior, whether you're aware of it or not, right?
[34:54] SPEAKER_03: You are creating experiences with other people that create beliefs that they have about you, which lead to how they interact with you, which lead to ultimately the results you're going to get with people, right?
[35:04] SPEAKER_03: So really think, like I think the more you can know yourself, the more you can understand who you are, the easier and better it is for you to, especially if you're not, you're leading a team, you're leading a company, you're going to be way better positioned to lead and navigate through an incredibly disruptive time.
[35:27] SPEAKER_03: And we are in an age of absolute disruption. I was saying to my daughter, she's 15 and she's going into grade 11 and it's a stress year.
[35:38] SPEAKER_03: And she's worrying about, like we were talking about like do people know what they want to do when they grow up and, you know, where they want to go to school. And she doesn't really have a clue and she's feeling worried about that.
[35:47] SPEAKER_03: And I said, hey, babe, listen, when you're a done school five years from now, there's going to be jobs in the market that we don't even know exist.
[35:55] SPEAKER_03: Like there's going to be so many and there's going to be jobs that we used to think of as being so secure, like traditional jobs being a lawyer, being an accountant.
[36:02] SPEAKER_03: I think those things are going to go through such a massive, you know, revolution in the coming years, things that we thought were going to be safe bets are no longer going to be the safe bets, right?
[36:14] SPEAKER_03: So I think that the more you understand yourself, the more you understand your strengths, the more you understand your biases, the more you understand what makes you tick, the more you are going to be in control of your life, your career, and where you want to take yourself.
[36:28] SPEAKER_03: So I would say that to anybody, I mean, I say that to my daughter is 15.
[36:32] SPEAKER_03: I mean, I'm like, you know, yeah, you don't like math, but you have to know enough about math to get through, but what do you like? What do you love? Where's the energy go?
[36:42] SPEAKER_03: What makes the time zip by for you? Pay attention to that.
[36:47] SPEAKER_03: Because then that, if you can get really good at doing something that meets that passion, you know, strength, intersection, you'll be fine.
[36:57] SPEAKER_00: I love that. I think that is just the most powerful advice we can really give to anyone. So thank you for that.
[37:07] SPEAKER_00: I want to, so this is the Toronto podcast. So I'm going to ask a Toronto question. And that is your business has always been based here since you started it.
[37:16] SPEAKER_00: You've always been here, but your business has. So what do you see as the benefits of being in Toronto? And also maybe some of the challenges of being in Toronto?
[37:26] SPEAKER_03: Well, I mean, I can certainly speak to it from our standpoint. I mean, it's great being in Toronto. It's such a vibrant city. There's so many for us. So many head offices here and so many opportunities to connect with leaders across so many different sectors.
[37:42] SPEAKER_03: I think that's what I love about Toronto is there's just a vibrancy. You know, we've got clients from every single sector you can imagine. And, you know, I think for the most part, we're in a place where for us talking to organizations about developing their people and investing in people.
[38:00] SPEAKER_03: We have companies that are very progressive in that area. So from a business standpoint for me, and I think the network in Toronto for entrepreneurs is also incredibly vibrant.
[38:11] SPEAKER_03: I think there's lots of places that you can go and get support and connect with other entrepreneurs. So I love that about Toronto. I think the thing that for us is becoming interestingly increasingly harder.
[38:24] SPEAKER_03: And it's, you know, a Canada thing more than a Toronto thing, I think, is that more and more companies are moving some of their decision making into their parent office, which many times is in the US.
[38:36] SPEAKER_03: And so for us, we're losing, there's a lot less autonomy. I find with many of our clients up here as the US economy has gone through its own ups and downs.
[38:49] SPEAKER_03: And so that's been a little bit more challenging for us in particular has been finding the relationships that we need to have.
[38:57] SPEAKER_03: The more we're finding is the relationships that typical used to be here are no longer here or the positions have been downgrade at a level from a DP to a director.
[39:06] SPEAKER_03: So seeing it, we saw a real shift in that over the last three years, I'd say, but I think that's more of a Canada thing than a Toronto specific thing.
[39:13] SPEAKER_03: I think my Toronto specific downside is just getting getting up the DBP to see my clients.
[39:20] SPEAKER_03: Traffic, the traffic to the gardener from my office in downtown Toronto, never, never fun.
[39:28] SPEAKER_00: So I would like to plus one that traffic Toronto, I agree.
[39:36] SPEAKER_03: Well, it's funny when you know a laughing about it, but when you're in a time-based business where every hour really does count, which is kind of a big part of our business is still time, you know, you're losing so many hours a year trying to just navigate across the city, right?
[39:54] SPEAKER_03: So it's interesting. I've not done the math on that. I don't think I'd want to, but it's probably a lot of lost available time sitting in there.
[40:02] SPEAKER_00: Yes, I would also not want to do that math.
[40:08] SPEAKER_00: So I would like, I'm going to get to wrapping up this interview and what I'd like to do is we have a set of fun questions.
[40:15] SPEAKER_00: I've just kind of rapid fire, quick answer questions that I'd love to ask you before we wrap this up.
[40:21] SPEAKER_00: Sounds great.
[40:22] SPEAKER_00: Perfect. So here we go. The first one is, if you weren't doing what you're doing now for work, what would you be doing instead?
[40:29] SPEAKER_03: Such a good question. I think I'd actually like to work with entrepreneurs. So maybe that's a kind of cheating answer, but I love entrepreneurs and I love helping them sink through the people side of their business.
[40:42] SPEAKER_03: I think entrepreneurs are always so great at the business side of their business.
[40:45] SPEAKER_03: So I think I'd flip and work with entrepreneurs as opposed to working with people that are working for the man.
[40:50] SPEAKER_00: I think that's great. And definitely you're clearly a very people focused person, right?
[40:59] SPEAKER_00: So it's surprising that that would be the thing you're doing instead.
[41:04] SPEAKER_00: What book are you currently reading? And do you have any books that you would recommend to our listeners?
[41:09] SPEAKER_03: Oh my gosh, I have like tens of books that I'd recommend to the listeners.
[41:13] SPEAKER_03: I love ours. That's for sure.
[41:16] SPEAKER_03: What's the book that I am currently reading right now? It's on my bookshelf at home and I'm halfway through. It is called, called Dark Horse.
[41:24] SPEAKER_03: And I'm trying to remember the name of the guy that wrote it. His name is the Skate Me. But anyway, it's all about basically how the school system is not set up properly to help people be successful in that.
[41:38] SPEAKER_03: In fact, it's your individuality. So it really fits into this whole strength space, the theme of, you know, working with your strengths versus conforming to the notions of the system, which is what the school system is.
[41:51] SPEAKER_03: And so really enjoying that book. I had heard about it on Doc Shepherd's podcast, the armchair expert. And I love it.
[41:58] SPEAKER_03: But in terms of leadership books that are absolutely my go-to's, the big one, the big three for me are what got you here won't get you there by Marshall Goldsmith, which is he's sort of the grandfather of behavior coaching, which is the work that we do here helping leadership behaviors.
[42:17] SPEAKER_03: Love that book. The second book that I that changed my life as a manager was first break all the rules, which is by Marcus Buckingham and Kurt Kaufman. It was the book that Buckingham and Kaufman wrote when they were working at Gallup.
[42:30] SPEAKER_03: And it is really takes the idea of Donald Clifton's work, sorry, with your strengths to the next level.
[42:38] SPEAKER_03: Gallup's research on strength space leaders and how they get more from their teams. It totally changed how I lead.
[42:44] SPEAKER_03: So I love that book. And then the third book that was a real game changer for me was a new earth by Eckhart Tolly.
[42:55] SPEAKER_03: And it is so great for taking a lot of zen philosophy and these sort of timeless principles and bringing them into I think he does such a great job of connecting it into the modern world and giving you these
[43:14] SPEAKER_03: strategies and the thing that I remember from that book that I constantly remember and I think as an entrepreneur it was such a helpful tool to have was this idea that you can choose not to worry.
[43:24] SPEAKER_03: So worry I'm one of these people who thinks and thinks and thinks and thinks that I have a very hard time slowing down my brain.
[43:29] SPEAKER_03: And he talks so much in that book about how worry is such a useless activity and that we can choose to worry you can decide to say I am not going to worry about this or you can choose to do something about it.
[43:45] SPEAKER_03: And so any time in my business where I would start worrying about money because that's usually where we go to as entrepreneurs I will tell you that everything will grind to a halt.
[43:55] SPEAKER_03: When I started going okay I'm worrying about money so what do I need to do and I would think about what can I do for a client right now what can I do to who have an I talk to in a while that I can connect with as soon as I shifted my energy and focus to action things changed right money came in client had a project things started moving so
[44:17] SPEAKER_03: that it kind of goes back to what we were talking about earlier about the confidence you know you get confidence by doing things.
[44:22] SPEAKER_03: But when you go through a bad rid of maybe you've lost a couple of contracts something hasn't come through your bank account is you know really drained.
[44:29] SPEAKER_03: It is so easy to find yourself on that downward spin and so that idea of I can choose not to worry about this doesn't mean I don't do something about it but that choice was really powerful for me.
[44:40] SPEAKER_00: I have not read that book and based on your description I know a few people I'm going to recommend it to.
[44:46] SPEAKER_00: It sounds great thank you for that you're welcome.
[44:50] SPEAKER_00: If you had to pick one word to describe yourself what would it be and why.
[44:55] SPEAKER_03: I think the word I would choose would be inspiring and I choose that word I say with hesitation so that doesn't sound too inspiring.
[45:04] SPEAKER_03: But I say inspiring because that has been a consistent thread of feedback that I've had my whole life and I can remember early in my career talking to somebody and saying to them.
[45:17] SPEAKER_03: Okay have all these people following me and I really don't know why like are they following me like what is it that they want you know like I don't mean following like following me around on the street but just in terms of teams right people that wanted to work with me and stay with me and that type of thing and.
[45:32] SPEAKER_03: She said to me she says well do you know like you're super inspiring right like you're always doing these interesting things but just you have the ability to motivate people and so I think that's my word inspiring.
[45:43] SPEAKER_00: I think that's a great word and as someone who knows you I would agree with that what is your favorite place in the world.
[45:50] SPEAKER_03: I think my favorite place in the world my mother lives on Vancouver Island and she lives in Victoria and the little part of Victoria she lives in as a little part called OK.
[46:02] SPEAKER_03: And I love it there it's a little short walk to the ocean where you can see the bald eagles and the seals playing in the harbor and the you know the air is fresh and clean and I just I love the pace of the island.
[46:19] SPEAKER_03: And I find in Toronto this is maybe one of my downsides of Toronto we are so frenetic here and it can be exhausting so I find whenever I go out west generally but particularly when I'm I'm on the island.
[46:33] SPEAKER_03: You really reconnect with what really matters like you start to realize OK this is all a construct this whole thing that I'm doing in this city called Toronto is a construct and I think at times in my life where I felt really overwhelmed and burnt out.
[46:49] SPEAKER_03: That always is a great place to re ground to say you have a choice like you don't have to be running this if you don't want to be you are choosing to have this experience so if you don't want to have it.
[47:00] SPEAKER_03: There's other places you can go right and Victoria for me is always a very grounding place but particularly being by the ocean when I'm there I love it.
[47:09] SPEAKER_00: It is beautiful I've been a few times and it's always beautiful there I completely appreciate that.
[47:15] SPEAKER_00: So this is the last of these fun questions.
[47:19] SPEAKER_00: There's a small tropical island in the middle of the ocean with only one phone booth and no internet we drop you off there with no technology so there's just that phone booth but at any time you can use that phone booth to call about come pick you up.
[47:32] SPEAKER_00: How long do you think you would last before calling that boat and what would you do in the meantime.
[47:36] SPEAKER_03: And there's nothing there like no books no nothing just a phone booth.
[47:42] SPEAKER_00: There's no technology there's no technology so book count I mean maybe no e reader book.
[47:49] Speaker UNKNOWN: Okay but I can.
[47:51] SPEAKER_03: I think if I had books and jigsaw puzzles I'm pretty introverted so I can go a long time without human contact that being said what's a long time I mean.
[48:05] SPEAKER_03: I don't know this is a really interesting question because if it was a competition because I'm high winning and I'm also high in during I'd say to you what if your other guests said because I'd want to beat them right so there's a part of me that thinks that.
[48:21] SPEAKER_03: And then there's the realistic part of me that goes yeah you could event you could endure through that but is it to the point of just enjoyment and you want to come out.
[48:30] SPEAKER_03: You know like it's okay I've been away and I'm refreshed and I'm ready for a boat to come pick me up so I actually think the honest answer is I could go for a really long time depending what was at stake I probably as long as there was food and water and.
[48:44] SPEAKER_03: I would be able to stay for a long time because I can occupy myself I journal I write I think I come up with ideas I love doing jigsaw puzzles and reading and.
[48:54] SPEAKER_03: So I can keep myself occupied I was the only girl in a house of four children right with three younger brothers and so a lot of my childhood was spent kind of doing my own thing so i'm okay there I would probably miss my daughter so I probably wouldn't want to be away from her for too too long maybe a couple weeks.
[49:14] SPEAKER_00: Nice competition let me tell you I game on right I love that I love that self awareness to what we were speaking about we're like oh if I know what if I know what other people have answered.
[49:24] SPEAKER_03: I'm going to beat that oh that's just the that's like okay I'm the beginning line on something like that because I feel like I could do it now if you're telling me we're at crossfit and you know the person before me did like five million sit ups I'd be like okay well I'm out at five so.
[49:43] SPEAKER_03: No limitations as well.
[49:45] SPEAKER_00: So glad I know you have recently submitted the manuscript for your second book which is super exciting is there do you have any sense of when it might come out.
[49:58] SPEAKER_03: Yes so it's going to be called the grassroots leadership revolution and it is going to come out I think next spring so we're just in the copy edit phase right now and yeah I feel so good to get that off my to do list.
[50:15] SPEAKER_00: I truly can't wait to read it I'm very excited for you I love the title of it.
[50:20] SPEAKER_00: Oh thanks I think it's I mean I can't wait to read it truly.
[50:24] SPEAKER_00: So I know your website is www.goroundtable.com well people be able to learn when the book comes out keep updated there as well.
[50:34] SPEAKER_03: Yeah I mean the best thing to do is if you go to that website you can sign up for our newsletter and getting on the newsletter list keeps you dated with everything goes on and don't worry we don't
[50:44] SPEAKER_03: spam the newsletter it's literally the only thing you will get from us is a once a month newsletter which has other things like leadership books you should read and articles that are cool on leadership and other sort of websites that you should go and check out that are leadership related so yeah that's a great way to keep and touch with us and we're
[51:02] SPEAKER_03: also on all the other social channels too so people can find us there and when we launch the book all of those announcements will be out through Instagram and Facebook and LinkedIn and all the usual so.
[51:12] SPEAKER_00: Yeah amazing thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me this was an amazing interview I could have spoken to you for hours.
[51:20] SPEAKER_03: It was totally fun talking to you so thank you yes and really good questions I'm going to I now I because I'm competitive I'm going to go away and I'm going to think about the answers to some of them again go oh this would have been a better answer but anyway I'll have to just like go go control everybody.
[51:39] SPEAKER_03: Amazing thank you. I appreciate you very much. Thank you Celine have a great day.
[51:46] SPEAKER_00: Thanks everyone for taking the time today to listen to Toronto's podcast on the Canada podcast network. If you enjoyed the podcast today please make sure to write us a review on iTunes and share this episode with a friend.
[51:57] SPEAKER_00: You can also check us out online at Canada's podcast.com where you can listen discover and engage and learn more about what other entrepreneurs are doing across the country.
[52:07] SPEAKER_00: See you next time.