Erica Pearson Discusses Her Business Vacation Fund, Mental Health & Avoiding Burnout, Especially During a Crisis Like COVID-19

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[00:00] SPEAKER_01: It's Toronto's podcast on the Canada's podcast network.
[00:04] SPEAKER_00: Hello everyone, this is Andrea Sessom from Canada's podcast, the number one nation's
[00:09] SPEAKER_00: entrepreneur network.
[00:11] SPEAKER_00: Today I'm here with Erica Kyrsten.
[00:14] SPEAKER_00: She is the founder and owner of the Cation Front.
[00:19] SPEAKER_00: Welcome Erica.
[00:21] SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me.
[00:22] SPEAKER_00: We're very excited to have you today, especially at times like this.
[00:26] SPEAKER_01: So, why don't we begin by you telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
[00:35] SPEAKER_02: Sure, yeah, absolutely.
[00:37] SPEAKER_02: So vacation fund started with the intention of helping people save for their travel
[00:43] SPEAKER_02: goals or their bucket list trips.
[00:45] SPEAKER_02: That sort of came from my own personal upbringing.
[00:48] SPEAKER_02: I was raised in a relatively frugal household, but my dad prioritized spending money on experiences
[00:54] SPEAKER_02: and travel over stuff.
[00:57] SPEAKER_02: And he really believed that that's what made a life very fulfilling.
[00:59] SPEAKER_02: And so, by the time I turned 22, I had been to over 40 countries.
[01:04] SPEAKER_02: And we stayed in hostels and we did house swaps and he found scrappy, cost effective ways
[01:09] SPEAKER_02: for us to travel.
[01:11] SPEAKER_02: But I look back on that and I think that's the ultimate privilege is getting to spend
[01:16] SPEAKER_02: time with loved ones, getting to see different parts of the world.
[01:19] SPEAKER_02: And so I said, I want to help other people do this.
[01:21] SPEAKER_02: And so the initial inspiration came from there were bucket list platforms where people were setting
[01:27] SPEAKER_02: sort of bucket list goals and checking them off as they went.
[01:31] SPEAKER_02: And my frugal mindset kicked in seeing this happen and I thought, well, that's wonderful.
[01:35] SPEAKER_02: But people want to go on safari if they don't start saving for this trip.
[01:39] SPEAKER_02: They're never going to get there.
[01:40] SPEAKER_02: And so I just wanted to help people save for these things.
[01:43] SPEAKER_02: And as I started to ask people, generally in the millennial demographic at the time,
[01:49] SPEAKER_02: I said, what prevents you from going on vacation?
[01:53] SPEAKER_02: 50% of people said, I don't have the budget.
[01:56] SPEAKER_02: And the other 50% said, you know, I'm really hesitant to take time away from work.
[02:01] SPEAKER_02: I'm trying to prove how committed I am.
[02:03] SPEAKER_02: I don't want to let my colleague down.
[02:04] SPEAKER_02: I don't want to come across as entitled.
[02:06] SPEAKER_02: I don't want to be perceived as a slacker.
[02:08] SPEAKER_02: I don't want to be passed up for promotion.
[02:11] SPEAKER_02: And around that time, I had been presenting this to tech and corporate executives in Canada.
[02:16] SPEAKER_02: And they said, you know, we're having a really hard time getting our hard working
[02:20] SPEAKER_02: ambitious employees to take time off.
[02:22] SPEAKER_02: Can we put money towards their vacations as an incentive to get them to use their time off?
[02:28] SPEAKER_02: And I thought, OK, that's interesting.
[02:29] SPEAKER_02: Are there companies in the world that are already doing this and have they seen results?
[02:33] SPEAKER_02: I mean, if it's a good idea, somebody must be doing it.
[02:36] SPEAKER_02: Right.
[02:37] SPEAKER_02: And we found 12 companies, approximately across the United States,
[02:40] SPEAKER_02: that were doing what they had referred to as paid paid vacations.
[02:43] SPEAKER_02: So paid time off where the company was also just cutting them a check.
[02:47] SPEAKER_02: Anywhere between $1,000 and $7,000 a year,
[02:50] SPEAKER_02: you use it or lose it to go on vacation.
[02:52] SPEAKER_02: And these companies wrote articles about how it's the best strategy they've ever had
[02:56] SPEAKER_02: to keep employees energized.
[02:57] SPEAKER_02: Make sure people know that vacationing is a part of the culture,
[03:00] SPEAKER_02: easiest way for them to attract talent and say, hey, your bucket list trips are essentially funded
[03:05] SPEAKER_02: if you come work for this company.
[03:07] SPEAKER_02: And so we said, OK, that's wonderful.
[03:08] SPEAKER_02: Except that's very expensive to cut employees a $1,000 to $7,000 check every year to go on vacation.
[03:16] SPEAKER_02: And so we said, what if we just turn it into a matching program?
[03:18] SPEAKER_02: So we turned it into employer-matched vacation saving.
[03:22] SPEAKER_02: And we had a whole bunch of companies say, this is amazing.
[03:25] SPEAKER_02: We know this is something that our employees really value.
[03:28] SPEAKER_02: They value their vacation time, but they do sometimes hesitate to take it.
[03:32] SPEAKER_02: And so companies right now are generally contributing anywhere between $10 and $50 a paycheck
[03:38] SPEAKER_02: towards an employee's vacation fund.
[03:40] SPEAKER_02: And our average user today directs $50 of their after-tax paycheck towards their vacation fund.
[03:45] SPEAKER_02: And they're always pleased about how quickly that money adds up.
[03:49] SPEAKER_02: And they really do feel.
[03:51] SPEAKER_02: And we've started to measure the emotional impact.
[03:53] SPEAKER_02: They really do feel that if the company is doing this, they feel encouraged to use their time off.
[03:58] SPEAKER_02: They feel like it is a part of the company culture.
[04:00] SPEAKER_02: And they feel like, OK, this is a forward-thinking company.
[04:03] SPEAKER_02: They know that burnout can happen when you work too many hours.
[04:06] SPEAKER_02: And thankfully, it was Ernst and Young that actually did a study on this
[04:11] SPEAKER_02: and found that for every 40 hours of vacation time taken anticipated employee tenure
[04:16] SPEAKER_02: actually increases eight months.
[04:18] SPEAKER_02: So that's a direct correlation from vacation time into employee retention.
[04:24] SPEAKER_01: That's excellent.
[04:26] SPEAKER_01: Excellent.
[04:26] SPEAKER_01: And do you see a lot of companies being on board with this?
[04:30] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think it's still a controversial topic.
[04:33] SPEAKER_02: There is definitely certain leaders.
[04:35] SPEAKER_02: I would say more of an older generation that just don't think
[04:39] SPEAKER_02: or maybe haven't wrapped their heads around this being a problem worth addressing.
[04:43] SPEAKER_02: Because a lot of companies are very happy having employees work 80 hour weeks
[04:47] SPEAKER_02: and not taking time off and giving everything they've got to their company.
[04:51] SPEAKER_02: And I've actually found that both of our American clients actually
[04:55] SPEAKER_02: are run by millennial executive teams because they've said,
[04:59] SPEAKER_02: we know what this generation values and the generation after us.
[05:03] SPEAKER_02: We know the last four companies that we've onboarded have been on the West Coast
[05:07] SPEAKER_02: because the West Coast seems to understand that this is very aligned with people's
[05:12] SPEAKER_02: wants and needs today.
[05:12] SPEAKER_02: People just want their time back, right?
[05:14] SPEAKER_02: We didn't anticipate working this many hours by 2020.
[05:18] SPEAKER_01: And it's mental health, big.
[05:20] SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
[05:22] SPEAKER_01: So you see more of the millennial or the newer companies that are on board with this.
[05:29] SPEAKER_01: And then I guess it's sort of backtracking to convince companies that have been there for
[05:36] SPEAKER_01: 20, 30 years that this is the way to go or to move forward.
[05:40] SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
[05:41] SPEAKER_02: It's us being able to justify and show the case studies to prove the return on investment.
[05:45] SPEAKER_02: And some people can be convinced and some people not so much.
[05:48] SPEAKER_02: They have a lot of other challenges, especially right now.
[05:50] SPEAKER_02: But we've found that the two primary reasons that companies are buying our services
[05:56] SPEAKER_02: is either one for employer branding and talent attraction,
[06:00] SPEAKER_02: just really using vacation fund as a unique differentiator to prove what a forward thinking
[06:04] SPEAKER_02: company they are and that they do have empathetic leaders and that they do want the best for their
[06:09] SPEAKER_02: people.
[06:10] SPEAKER_02: So it's either talent attraction and employer branding or it's actually burnout prevention
[06:15] SPEAKER_02: and trying to increase the number of vacation days that employees are taking.
[06:19] SPEAKER_02: So burnout prevention and just making sure employee well-being is a priority within the
[06:25] SPEAKER_02: organization.
[06:26] SPEAKER_01: That's great.
[06:27] SPEAKER_01: Great work.
[06:28] SPEAKER_01: You're doing out there.
[06:29] SPEAKER_01: So I would love to know what made you decide to become an entrepreneur?
[06:36] SPEAKER_01: Interesting question.
[06:37] SPEAKER_02: So I think it helped for me that I had gone into finance.
[06:43] SPEAKER_02: I had gone into sales and trading.
[06:46] SPEAKER_02: It's something that I'd seen my dad do for 20 years and I grew up a competitive athlete.
[06:51] SPEAKER_02: So I liked the trading floor environment.
[06:53] SPEAKER_02: It was fast paced.
[06:54] SPEAKER_02: It was competitive.
[06:56] SPEAKER_02: But certain areas of the parts of the bank that I was working for were contracted.
[07:01] SPEAKER_02: And so there were maybe not as many rules available for new graduates.
[07:07] SPEAKER_02: And I also started to see I never really considered myself necessarily an incredibly
[07:11] SPEAKER_02: forward thinking person and I knew very little about the tech space.
[07:15] SPEAKER_02: But it seemed to me that a lot of jobs in the area of the bank that I was working for
[07:20] SPEAKER_02: were being automated and were being taken over with new technology.
[07:24] SPEAKER_02: And I remember sitting back to back with a co-op student that was programming one of our trading
[07:29] SPEAKER_02: algorithms, essentially making the job that I had been doing at that time, potentially obsolete
[07:35] SPEAKER_02: in the coming years.
[07:36] SPEAKER_02: And so I looked around and I said, do I want to stay here?
[07:40] SPEAKER_02: Do I want to keep doing this?
[07:41] SPEAKER_02: Have I found a desk that I'm really passionate about?
[07:44] SPEAKER_02: Thankfully, I got to participate in a rotational program to try out a bunch of different roles.
[07:50] SPEAKER_02: And it looked to me like it wasn't necessarily something that I was passionate about and call
[07:55] SPEAKER_02: me the most cliche millennial ever.
[07:57] SPEAKER_02: But I really did want to find something that I was so excited about.
[08:01] SPEAKER_02: And I said, I looked around and I said, is there anyone's life here that I really want?
[08:05] SPEAKER_02: Like, is there anyone's life that I'm incredibly envious of that I will do anything in my power
[08:10] SPEAKER_02: to work to achieve?
[08:11] SPEAKER_02: And I didn't necessarily see it.
[08:13] SPEAKER_02: And then I was reading all of these articles online.
[08:16] SPEAKER_02: I was reading notable every day about young people starting companies.
[08:20] SPEAKER_02: I was reading why culminator materials, Paul Graham essays, all the stuff coming out of California
[08:26] SPEAKER_02: in Silicon Valley.
[08:28] SPEAKER_02: And I was really intrigued by young people starting companies, even though they didn't necessarily
[08:33] SPEAKER_02: have qualifications to do it or didn't necessarily grow up with that kind of upbringing with a
[08:40] SPEAKER_02: parent that I'd started the business, but they gave it a shot.
[08:43] SPEAKER_02: And so my sort of ethos personally has been to live a life without regrets.
[08:49] SPEAKER_02: And that I think is something that I learned from travel.
[08:51] SPEAKER_02: It's like, if I look back, will I be pleased about how I chose to use my time on earth?
[08:57] SPEAKER_02: And so I said, if I don't give this a chance, I was passionate enough about a handful of topics
[09:02] SPEAKER_02: that I really wanted to learn more about.
[09:04] SPEAKER_02: And I didn't necessarily see a way in because I wasn't qualified unless I went and started
[09:09] SPEAKER_02: to accompany myself. So I think it was mostly about just understanding.
[09:13] SPEAKER_02: And thankfully, I did come into it in a privileged circumstances in that I wasn't paying off
[09:18] SPEAKER_02: student debt. And I think that's an important disclaimer to have because I was in a position
[09:23] SPEAKER_02: where I left school, I started to earn money.
[09:26] SPEAKER_02: And then I had the ability to make that leap without necessarily dealing with some of the
[09:31] SPEAKER_02: financial burdens that other people come out of school with.
[09:34] SPEAKER_02: So it just seemed like a good opportunity.
[09:36] SPEAKER_02: There was very little holding me back. I still consider myself a relatively risk of
[09:41] SPEAKER_02: Earth's founder because there's certain, I don't know if I would have been willing to go into debt
[09:45] SPEAKER_02: to do it. I don't know what my parameters would have been, but I gave myself a certain number of
[09:50] SPEAKER_02: months saying, how many months am I willing to go without income or without revenue?
[09:54] SPEAKER_02: How many months am I willing to give this a chance to see what's out there?
[09:59] SPEAKER_02: And thankfully, we gained momentum enough that I could eventually start paying myself.
[10:04] SPEAKER_02: So that also helped.
[10:05] SPEAKER_01: So I would love to hear now that you mentioned how many months did you give yourself?
[10:10] SPEAKER_02: I think if I actually calculated, I did. So actually, when I left the bank, and my last day was
[10:17] SPEAKER_02: the end of February 2017, I left the bank. I started doing a program called Founder Institute,
[10:25] SPEAKER_02: where you can pitch your idea to the tech community. It's a very early stage, a very, very early stage,
[10:30] SPEAKER_02: almost a pre-excelerator, just for people who are at the idea stage.
[10:35] SPEAKER_02: And then there was an opportunity for me to work with the group that was starting year one of
[10:40] SPEAKER_02: what is now Elevate Toronto. So a very big conference. And so I did some work with them as well.
[10:45] SPEAKER_02: So that also helped to extend by runway, bringing a little bit of income in the months after I had
[10:50] SPEAKER_02: left RBC. But I think after the little bit of money that came in in 2017, I probably gave myself
[10:56] SPEAKER_02: another eight months without income. So it was a bit of a grind, and they were uncomfortable moments,
[11:03] SPEAKER_02: but I almost feel like that's sort of almost a right of passage it felt like to earn the right to
[11:09] SPEAKER_01: keep doing this. You know, some people have longer sort of runways. So that, you know, for you,
[11:16] SPEAKER_01: eight months is quite short, which shows the success that you know, you achieved.
[11:25] SPEAKER_01: It's not too long of a time for an entrepreneur's business to sort of ramp up and become a success.
[11:33] SPEAKER_02: Exactly. And so we also, we in 2018, as I was getting to the end of being able to not pay
[11:40] SPEAKER_02: myself at all for anything, we were accepted into tech stars in Chicago. And so that came with
[11:46] SPEAKER_02: an $120,000 US investment. And so that allowed our team to say, okay, we can pay ourselves a little
[11:52] SPEAKER_02: bit to get to keep going, to keep going, to keep pursuing. And we had paying clients at that point.
[11:57] SPEAKER_02: And it's just a matter of getting to that next level. That's awesome. And it really helps that you
[12:02] SPEAKER_01: had a lot of people who believe in you and what you were doing. The support of incubators or
[12:09] SPEAKER_01: accelerators. And I think that makes a huge difference and a little bit of an investment say,
[12:13] SPEAKER_02: you know, I really believe in your idea. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think that's one thing that
[12:19] SPEAKER_02: I got out of doing Founder Institute. Because again, I came from finance. I had no background in tech.
[12:25] SPEAKER_02: I didn't really know how to start something from scratch. But Founder Institute allowed me to pitch
[12:32] SPEAKER_02: and present to the tech and corporate community in Toronto every week for three months. And one,
[12:38] SPEAKER_02: I got guidance very early on from people that I was using to build out my network to say,
[12:42] SPEAKER_02: make sure you send people monthly updates. Make sure, no matter what kind of progress you've
[12:47] SPEAKER_02: achieved, keep gathering people on an email list and just send them an update about what the
[12:52] SPEAKER_02: company is working on, what you've accomplished in the past month, what you're focusing on in the
[12:56] SPEAKER_02: next month and give them a very specific ask. That list today is 450 people. And it's almost what
[13:03] SPEAKER_02: one of our advisors called crowdsourcing help. Because at any given time, I mean, we only get
[13:08] SPEAKER_02: maybe out of 450 people. We only get five or 10 responses to our one specific ask. But the people
[13:14] SPEAKER_02: responding are the people the most qualified to answer that question that I might have had or
[13:19] SPEAKER_02: open those doors that we're asking for. So that I think building out a network of people that
[13:24] SPEAKER_02: at least believe in your purpose or your general mission has taken us a long way.
[13:30] SPEAKER_01: Good. And I think that's a good advice for any entrepreneurs existing and the ones that are
[13:35] SPEAKER_01: thinking of starting a business is to build a network. Absolutely. And just and just be able to help
[13:42] SPEAKER_02: sort of craft a story because people people get pitched to and people get presented to on so many
[13:48] SPEAKER_02: topics today. Anyone that can find a way to pitch or present will do it. But crafting a story that
[13:53] SPEAKER_02: allows someone to latch on and say, Oh, that was memorable to me. That that is really helpful. You
[13:58] SPEAKER_01: have to give someone a reason to care really. So is that part of the branding you would say
[14:03] SPEAKER_02: creating a story? Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I think I and I've retold the story and the story has
[14:09] SPEAKER_02: sort of I mean the general fundamentals of the story stay because it's true. But over time,
[14:15] SPEAKER_02: different pieces of it have come into play. People had said, okay, well, why are you passionate
[14:19] SPEAKER_02: about workplace burnout? And then I bring up how I've actually I had a severe burnout during an
[14:26] SPEAKER_02: accelerator that basically sent me to the emergency room. And so there are times when you just have
[14:32] SPEAKER_02: to craft the story based on the audience and based on what kinds of topics the audience cares
[14:36] SPEAKER_02: about. Like my sales presentations are a little bit different from my investor pitches. But a lot
[14:41] SPEAKER_02: of the fundamentals and the company values and my purpose always stays true. Very good.
[14:47] SPEAKER_01: Having said all of that, do you think that entrepreneurs are wired differently? Do you think you were
[14:54] SPEAKER_01: born to be an entrepreneur or is this something that you sort of just learned along the way?
[15:00] SPEAKER_01: Are you wired differently than the rest of the people? That's a great question because I think growing up
[15:07] SPEAKER_02: I didn't always go with the status quo and I questioned assumptions. But I've talked to so many
[15:13] SPEAKER_02: entrepreneurs that have said, oh, I was a terrible student because I didn't believe that what my
[15:17] SPEAKER_02: teachers were saying or I questioned everything. I was a very hardworking by the book student. I did
[15:23] SPEAKER_02: everything by the book. I actually didn't necessarily push back on things. I did my homework. I
[15:30] SPEAKER_02: followed the rules and I think a lot of entrepreneurs don't necessarily do that. So I think it's something
[15:35] SPEAKER_02: that can become learned over time. But there has to be that why. Like someone can't just say, oh,
[15:43] SPEAKER_02: I'm kind of comfortable with my life and I like the decisions I've made and I'm okay with the way
[15:48] SPEAKER_02: things are and I don't necessarily want to build something and change something. I think the why
[15:54] SPEAKER_02: is the most necessary piece. It's what motivates people. It's sort of saying, okay, I'm comfortable
[16:02] SPEAKER_02: in my current existence. I'm comfortable with the way things are going. What would it take for
[16:07] SPEAKER_02: someone to be motivated enough to disrupt that? What are people willing to give up to say, I really
[16:14] SPEAKER_02: need to bring this new thing into the world or I really want to run this business and be able to
[16:20] SPEAKER_02: make these decisions that I think can help the world change for the better. So I think some pieces
[16:25] SPEAKER_02: definitely are necessary that come with an upbringing, but I do believe it can be learned. And I
[16:32] SPEAKER_02: think the most necessary piece for anyone starting a business is just a growth mindset. This is
[16:39] SPEAKER_02: this is the kind of thing that there's no room for ego. There's no room for assuming you know
[16:44] SPEAKER_02: at all. There's so many people necessary to get someone to a point of building a successful business
[16:50] SPEAKER_02: that you just you just have to always realize how much you don't know and be willing to ask for help
[16:57] SPEAKER_01: because no one can do this by themselves. Does that sometimes feel like putting pieces of puzzle
[17:02] SPEAKER_01: together? Absolutely. Building things, you know, and finding the right people that can either mentor
[17:07] SPEAKER_01: you or help you. So you're just putting pieces to get to where you are at times. Exactly. And
[17:15] SPEAKER_02: taking baby steps in the right direction knowing that sometimes you do things like at one point I
[17:19] SPEAKER_02: spent a month or two back in 2017 building a business plan that never got used. It was necessary
[17:25] SPEAKER_02: to apply for a grant, but there were certain pieces of our business that I hadn't thought through
[17:29] SPEAKER_02: and if I hadn't gone through that exercise, then that might not have helped me. So it's
[17:32] SPEAKER_02: understanding that you're not always going to be taking exactly the right steps. But as long as you're
[17:36] SPEAKER_02: taking baby steps in the right direction, you set yourself up to have more scenarios where you
[17:42] SPEAKER_02: can get lucky. And sometimes it feels like luck is involved and then other times it's like, well,
[17:47] SPEAKER_02: no, you had to keep taking steps in the right direction to give yourself an opportunity to get lucky.
[17:52] SPEAKER_01: You've got to be open to learning and be flexible. Yeah, exactly. And just understanding that
[17:58] SPEAKER_02: this doesn't happen alone. There's a lot of resources necessary to get people to a point where
[18:03] SPEAKER_02: something is actually working. And still my favorite, my favorite definition of success that someone
[18:09] SPEAKER_02: told me very early on is doing things you care about with people you like. And that is their
[18:15] SPEAKER_02: definition of success because it can't be the end goal, right? I mean, especially in uncertain times
[18:20] SPEAKER_02: like we're in right now, there's no guarantees for anyone. Most businesses are facing times of uncertainty
[18:25] SPEAKER_02: and trying to figure out what the next few weeks or months looks like. And so what you have to,
[18:30] SPEAKER_02: what I think people should be wrapping their heads around is enjoying the process,
[18:35] SPEAKER_02: including the learning that comes with the process. That's all that really matters because that's
[18:39] SPEAKER_01: all we can control. I agree. I agree. So as an entrepreneur, some of your best ideas, do they,
[18:48] SPEAKER_01: do they come at night or how do you, uh, when do your best, are you more of a morning person or
[18:55] SPEAKER_02: night person? I think most ideas come from conversations with other people. So there are certain
[19:04] SPEAKER_02: things where either even if it's something that I thought about, it almost needs, I need to have
[19:11] SPEAKER_02: a conversation with someone else to validate that that might be a good idea. So I'll come up with ideas
[19:17] SPEAKER_02: about how we can increase awareness or what kinds of promotional activities we can do as a company.
[19:23] SPEAKER_02: And then sometimes I'll share those with my team and thankfully we have daily conversations,
[19:30] SPEAKER_02: even now when everyone's working remote to say, I was thinking about this, have you guys,
[19:35] SPEAKER_02: what do you think about that? Do you think that represents our brand well? Do you think that'll help
[19:39] SPEAKER_02: us move forward? And so a lot of learning on our product side comes from our clients and our end
[19:44] SPEAKER_02: users because they're the ones interacting with it. But from a business perspective, it comes from
[19:49] SPEAKER_02: conversations with other people being like, how would you perceive this? And I think that's,
[19:54] SPEAKER_02: that's been really powerful. And so I would say the best ideas come from times when I'm doing less
[20:00] SPEAKER_02: talking and more listening. Like I'll put an idea out there and see how it lands with other people
[20:05] SPEAKER_02: or see what their reactions to it are. So just sort of knowing that I can come up with ideas,
[20:10] SPEAKER_02: it's not always going to be the right idea, but we're always again trying to take these baby
[20:13] SPEAKER_02: steps in the right direction. So just listening to people's response to that thought. And I think,
[20:18] SPEAKER_02: I think conversations with my team really helped me validate, okay, is this worth giving it a shot?
[20:25] SPEAKER_02: Or is this something that we sideline because we don't necessarily know if that'll be helpful?
[20:31] SPEAKER_01: Awesome. And at times like this, that we are, we're doing this middle,
[20:36] SPEAKER_01: interview in the middle of an epidemic, coronavirus. And I think mental health is really important.
[20:43] SPEAKER_01: And I think this is affecting a lot of people, especially entrepreneurs, having to close
[20:50] SPEAKER_01: shop, not knowing when the end of all of this will be. So as an entrepreneur, that's being
[20:57] SPEAKER_01: effective because we all are, what do you do to disconnect at times like this?
[21:04] SPEAKER_02: Disconnecting at times like this, it's challenging because I go through phases where, so one of the
[21:10] SPEAKER_02: most dangerous things that I think people do for their mental health is compare. And so comparisons
[21:16] SPEAKER_02: are the worst thing someone can do. One of the worst things someone can do for themselves,
[21:20] SPEAKER_02: especially when people consider themselves to be hard workers and high achievers and almost
[21:25] SPEAKER_02: competitive in a sense. And so I go through phases where I delete all social media. And I just don't
[21:31] SPEAKER_02: think about what's going on in anyone else's life because I'm trying to process what's going on in
[21:35] SPEAKER_02: my life and how our company is moving forward. At the beginning of the sort of coronavirus crisis,
[21:42] SPEAKER_02: I went a day where I just sort of deleted Instagram, but I was sitting at home in my condo just
[21:49] SPEAKER_02: with my fiance. And I actually felt like by not being able to leave our condo or go outside or
[21:56] SPEAKER_02: go see other people, it made me feel even more isolated. So I had to bring Instagram and social media
[22:02] SPEAKER_02: back because it's still facilitating that feeling of connectivity. Because right now really, as much
[22:08] SPEAKER_02: as there's a lot of negative things going around, we are all in this together, right? No one is exempt
[22:12] SPEAKER_02: from this situation. The circumstances affecting everyone. And so I've just tried to focus on the more
[22:19] SPEAKER_02: positive things and the more positive feelings and the more positive reactions because it's so easy
[22:24] SPEAKER_02: to start reading about, okay, well, how many cases are there and how long is this going to go on
[22:28] SPEAKER_02: for and who's going to be the most severely impacted and what businesses are going to go under?
[22:32] SPEAKER_02: There's there's too much of that. So when I've needed to, I've taken a day to just close my laptop,
[22:39] SPEAKER_02: not watch the news, not listen to anything and just spend some time playing a game, a card game
[22:44] SPEAKER_02: with my fiance or just talking through, okay, what kinds of emotions did you feel today? And sometimes
[22:50] SPEAKER_02: still sort of laugh at me for us in these questions. And then sometimes he knows people are all going
[22:55] SPEAKER_02: through this differently, right? People are all trying to process emotions, come up with the best
[23:00] SPEAKER_02: way to react to certain things and certain people are approaching it differently than others, right?
[23:06] SPEAKER_02: Nobody's going to have the exact same response. We're all in unique circumstances. And I think it's
[23:10] SPEAKER_02: just helpful that it puts a lot of things in perspective. And there are people that don't have the
[23:16] SPEAKER_02: ability to work from home or don't have a source of income while we're all in isolation, right? And so
[23:22] SPEAKER_02: understanding your privilege and understanding the things that you can be grateful for going through
[23:27] SPEAKER_02: this is almost, I would say the most critical piece to help process and to help disconnect and say,
[23:33] SPEAKER_02: okay, these are the really good things. I have a roof over my head. I'm not in short supply of food.
[23:38] SPEAKER_02: I am grateful that I can still connect with people over the internet, feel that sense of connectivity.
[23:45] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly. Clean water. There's things that we're very privileged. All things consider,
[23:51] SPEAKER_02: and yes, this crisis is affecting us all, but relatively speaking, we're very privileged.
[24:00] SPEAKER_02: And so that's, I've continued to pick up, I go through phases of meditation and doing my gratitude
[24:06] SPEAKER_02: journal daily. And so I've had to pick up that again, just because I think I know the power of
[24:11] SPEAKER_02: gratitude. And I think most people do, but it's just a matter of turning it into a habit and saying,
[24:15] SPEAKER_02: okay, I'm going to write down the things that I'm grateful for right now. I think that's that,
[24:20] SPEAKER_02: my way to get through this one I'm disconnecting is writing things down, playing games, and just
[24:25] SPEAKER_01: being appreciative of the things around me. Very good. It's a lot because we were,
[24:31] SPEAKER_01: when we would mention disconnect, you would think disconnect from technology altogether,
[24:37] SPEAKER_01: to sort of recoup and have some time off. But with everything that's happening right now, I think we're
[24:44] SPEAKER_01: more connected to the technology than we ever were before. Yeah, it's really hard to disconnect
[24:53] SPEAKER_01: because we're managing teams remotely, we're communicating remotely. So even I think if we wanted
[25:00] SPEAKER_01: to disconnect, it's for certain periods of time. Yeah, right now. Exactly. And if there is a safe
[25:08] SPEAKER_02: space to go outside or to play a game to just say, okay, I'm not going to look at anything on my
[25:12] SPEAKER_02: phone for the next hour because I'm just going to be here in the moment. But then also, there are
[25:16] SPEAKER_02: times where I'm sure some people have had to disconnect from social media during this because you
[25:20] SPEAKER_02: get so many different opinions about what's going on. And so that almost makes more room. Like, I've
[25:25] SPEAKER_02: FaceTime to more people in the last two weeks than I have in the last year. Same year. And it's
[25:31] SPEAKER_02: really cool, right? Since one-on-one, I think I prefer the one-on-one conversations I've done some
[25:37] SPEAKER_02: of the bigger group calls and so many people talking at once. It can be difficult to manage.
[25:42] SPEAKER_01: It's a way to adapt, I guess, to, you know, doing communication this way. Yeah,
[25:49] SPEAKER_01: I'm here, absolutely. So, Eric, I'd love to hear, where do you see your business? And I'm asking
[25:57] SPEAKER_01: at a really hard time in, you know, in terms of what's happening. But where do you see your business
[26:04] SPEAKER_02: in the next five years? Five years. Oh, man. Five years is a much more hopeful outlook than the next
[26:13] SPEAKER_02: few weeks. Yeah, no, five years from now. So, what's been really interesting for us, because we're
[26:20] SPEAKER_02: technically in the FinTech space, the HRTech space, and the travel tech space. So, we've been sort of,
[26:29] SPEAKER_02: I came from finance, right? So, I've been learning as I've been going, the HRTech space and the
[26:34] SPEAKER_02: travel side, what I think is really interesting about what we're doing is that we've been trying to
[26:40] SPEAKER_02: mitigate the barriers that prevent people from taking time off. The financial, emotional, and
[26:44] SPEAKER_02: logistical barriers. And thankfully, the emotional piece, that means that this messaging sort of has
[26:49] SPEAKER_02: to come from a company. So, really, the B2B strategy is more of sort of our customer acquisition
[26:55] SPEAKER_02: strategy, knowing that people are more comfortable using their time off if they're feeling encouraged
[27:00] SPEAKER_02: by their employer. That being said, the opportunities with what we're doing are very much greater on
[27:07] SPEAKER_02: the travel side. And we've talked to investors in various travel companies and travel tech companies
[27:13] SPEAKER_02: specifically. And they've said, you've won up to everyone, assuming this keeps working, in that you
[27:19] SPEAKER_02: know where people want to go, what time of the year, what their budget is for each part of their
[27:25] SPEAKER_02: trip and when they're actually going to follow through with it, right? So, we have people's vacation
[27:32] SPEAKER_02: intentions. We know how much money is actually sitting in their vacation fund account to go on this
[27:37] SPEAKER_02: trip. And so, this is information that even the biggest sort of travel tech platforms in the world
[27:44] SPEAKER_02: don't know how much money is sitting in the person's account to be spent on this trip, right? And so,
[27:49] SPEAKER_02: the opportunities on the travel side seem to be the greatest opportunity. I could almost see this
[27:54] SPEAKER_02: turning into somebody is setting up, setting aside money for this trip. The company is contributing,
[27:59] SPEAKER_02: they know by what date they can actually book the trip. And then you could also have almost have a
[28:04] SPEAKER_02: circumstance where a few different places in whether it's Mexico or Costa Rica have said, oh, you
[28:10] SPEAKER_02: have these people that are looking to go here, it can almost be reverse bidding saying this is the
[28:15] SPEAKER_02: offer that we can provide this person. And so, that's the opportunities on the travel side are so vast.
[28:21] SPEAKER_02: It's a very competitive industry and people are all trying to figure out how to get eyeballs, right? Because
[28:25] SPEAKER_02: I think travel is very exciting that in that it's visual and it's aspirational and it's something that
[28:31] SPEAKER_02: people enjoy browsing. But now companies have been trying to figure out travel tech companies
[28:35] SPEAKER_02: specifically have been trying to figure out what else can we do to increase the likelihood that
[28:39] SPEAKER_02: this person becomes a paying customer and books on our site versus someone else's site. So, those
[28:44] SPEAKER_02: are the kinds of relationships that we're really focused on trying to figure out the best way to do.
[28:48] SPEAKER_02: There have been some companies that have done versions of this where they make you only book with
[28:54] SPEAKER_02: one of their travel partners. We do not want to limit people's spend of their vacation fund money
[29:00] SPEAKER_02: to a specific provider because we just don't believe in dictating what time off should mean to someone.
[29:06] SPEAKER_02: I mean, if someone we've had one of our users say, hey, I want to use my vacation fund money
[29:10] SPEAKER_02: to book this campsite for me and my family for 14 days and it costs $50 a night, is that allowed?
[29:16] SPEAKER_02: We said, of course, like a camping trip is a great way to disconnect. So, I think that for us means
[29:22] SPEAKER_02: yes, we want people to have better offers than what they could find publicly. We do have a closed
[29:27] SPEAKER_02: user group, but we don't want to limit or restrict what time off looks like to people. So, it has to be
[29:33] SPEAKER_02: done right. And that's why it's more a part of the five-year outlook than the one-year outlook.
[29:37] SPEAKER_01: I like the plan. It's coming along. My next question is a little bit of a tougher one.
[29:43] SPEAKER_01: What is one of the greatest challenges that you've faced in your business? And you can talk about
[29:48] SPEAKER_01: the now, if you like. I think maybe the now is one of the greatest challenges anyone has
[29:54] SPEAKER_02: including my business as well. Absolutely. Yeah, so I think, believe it or not, right now
[30:03] SPEAKER_02: does it not feel like the greatest of challenges? So, we've never raised institutional money. We've
[30:09] SPEAKER_02: got some very supportive angel investors. We had the money from TechStyre, but we've always had
[30:16] SPEAKER_02: to operate pretty lean. We're a full-time team of four people. We've always had to say, okay,
[30:21] SPEAKER_02: this is how much money we have, how far can this take us and what gold we want to achieve with
[30:26] SPEAKER_02: that money? So, because we've always been sort of restricted to operating lean, we've never had more
[30:32] SPEAKER_02: than a couple hundred thousand dollars in the bank at any given time. This right now to us feels
[30:39] SPEAKER_02: like something that we were sort of prepared before because we were financially intelligent,
[30:45] SPEAKER_02: if that makes sense. Very good. The harder part for me is when we had to go through last year
[30:53] SPEAKER_02: letting someone go. And that was a part of being a full-time team. We were five people full-time
[31:00] SPEAKER_02: at that point. Being a full-time team of five and having to say, okay, we feel like a family,
[31:06] SPEAKER_02: but we have to downsize our team to protect everyone else, to protect our team and be able to
[31:11] SPEAKER_02: continue operating as lean as possible. Is there anyone that we could afford to not have based
[31:18] SPEAKER_02: on what we need to achieve in the next six months? And that to me, and part of the reason why I
[31:23] SPEAKER_02: really want this business to continue working and growing and being established is because I think
[31:29] SPEAKER_02: we do need more empathetic leaders. And I'm seeing a lot of evidence of empathetic leaders and
[31:34] SPEAKER_02: people that care about their people, people that care about stakeholders more than just their
[31:38] SPEAKER_02: shareholders or their investors. But that was really hard for me to wrap my head around someone
[31:43] SPEAKER_02: that we've become close to and worked with and had a part of our sort of vacation fun family to
[31:51] SPEAKER_02: say, okay, it's my job for the company to do what the business requires right now and to do what I
[31:58] SPEAKER_02: can to look after all of the other stakeholders. What cost can we afford to reduce at this point
[32:05] SPEAKER_02: and this ended up, I had to let someone go. And that was, I think I'm generally good at compartmentalizing.
[32:12] SPEAKER_02: I'm really grateful that somehow I'm still able to get eight hours of sleep most nights. I
[32:16] SPEAKER_02: I think that's a gift because a lot of my friends struggle with that who have started companies.
[32:22] SPEAKER_02: But this was one of the things that kept me up at night because it felt very unsettling to disrupt
[32:27] SPEAKER_02: somebody else's life. And when they were a passionate part of our team and say, okay, we have to
[32:34] SPEAKER_02: terminate this relationship. And in those conversations, you're also supposed to limit the amount
[32:38] SPEAKER_01: that you say. Making those tough decisions. Yeah. Okay. And what do you know now that you wish you
[32:47] SPEAKER_02: knew when you were just starting your business? Oh, man. I think that's a thing. It's just a constant
[32:54] SPEAKER_02: learning process and a constant growth process. And I think you hear certain lessons from other
[32:59] SPEAKER_02: people and it's just a constant learning process. So anything that I could go back and tell myself
[33:05] SPEAKER_02: right now, it's going to take longer than you think it's going to take. I mean, technically,
[33:11] SPEAKER_02: we're a little over three years in the year one. I call 2017. I call the year of doing things that
[33:16] SPEAKER_02: didn't work. That's when I thought this was sort of B2C 2018 was the first year running pilots
[33:21] SPEAKER_02: where we didn't even have a platform, but we had companies that wanted us to run this program for
[33:26] SPEAKER_02: them. And then 2019 was the first year of sort of operating commercially and starting to move up
[33:33] SPEAKER_02: market landing companies that are bigger and bigger. And I would just probably go back and
[33:37] SPEAKER_02: warn myself, this is going to take you a lot longer than a couple of years. It'll take some time
[33:42] SPEAKER_02: to get to where you want. But I don't know if I would go back and tell myself that or else I might
[33:47] SPEAKER_02: have hesitated to do it. And there's no other way that I would have wanted to spend the last
[33:51] SPEAKER_01: three years. And you've done a lot. You've really done a lot in three years.
[33:57] SPEAKER_01: Thank you. It doesn't always feel like it. So what advice would you give an entrepreneur looking
[34:03] SPEAKER_02: to start a business right now in the city? Um, I think just just get started. I think just get
[34:10] SPEAKER_02: started. Baby steps in the right direction, keeping yourself accountable and really making
[34:15] SPEAKER_02: sure you're doing it with people you like, right? Because that's again, if you don't enjoy the
[34:19] SPEAKER_02: process, there's no point. You're not having fun in the process, right? Exactly. Exactly. And I think
[34:25] SPEAKER_02: a lot of people really sort of struggle and bash their heads against a wall being like, it's not
[34:30] SPEAKER_02: working, but it's going to work. And they still are very, they have a lot of conviction around the
[34:34] SPEAKER_02: mission. But if you're working with people that you have a lot of challenges working with or your
[34:40] SPEAKER_02: team is not getting along and people aren't open-minded or don't have a growth mindset, I mean,
[34:45] SPEAKER_02: I can't imagine going through this. I've talked to so many people that have had to go through sort
[34:49] SPEAKER_02: of like co-founder breakups because something really didn't work between them, but they had very
[34:54] SPEAKER_02: different ideas of what success was or how their company should be done. And I think I think putting
[35:00] SPEAKER_02: a lot of thought into who you're doing this with matters more than anything because this is your
[35:04] SPEAKER_02: every day. If you're not excited and motivated to get up and do this and talk to your team, like,
[35:09] SPEAKER_02: it sounds like very cliche, but communication still, regardless of what kinds of relationships
[35:15] SPEAKER_02: you're managing communication with your team, with even with anyone that's going through this with
[35:21] SPEAKER_02: you, investors, it's the most critical piece. So being able to pick up the phone and talk to anyone
[35:26] SPEAKER_02: that you're doing this with is so important for everyone to say that. It almost feels like a
[35:31] SPEAKER_01: marriage. If you're getting into partnership with somebody or you're doing it with someone,
[35:36] SPEAKER_01: it you're going to be a long-term marriage or will there be a possibility of it at the horse, I guess.
[35:43] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly, exactly an understanding why people are doing it and what's the motivation.
[35:49] SPEAKER_02: I mean, there are still some people that have co-founders that are in it because they think they'll
[35:54] SPEAKER_02: get a good payout one day, right? And that's really not enough. It's really not.
[35:59] SPEAKER_01: So now I'm going to switch to a little bit of fun questions. It's going to be a rapid fire question
[36:06] SPEAKER_01: and you don't have to think too much about it. I'm just going to ask and you can just, you know,
[36:10] SPEAKER_01: say the first thing that comes to your mind. So if you weren't doing what you are doing now for work,
[36:17] SPEAKER_02: what would you be doing instead? Oh my goodness. I'm trying not to put too much thought into it.
[36:24] SPEAKER_02: There's a part of me that always just wanted to be a tour guide for travel or own a villa or a bed
[36:31] SPEAKER_01: and breakfast in Greece or something like that. Love it. What book are you currently reading and
[36:37] SPEAKER_01: what books would you recommend to audience? So if you're not reading a book right now,
[36:41] SPEAKER_01: maybe listening to podcasts or doing something else, feel free to share.
[36:46] SPEAKER_02: Awesome. I'm rereading a book right now called The Experience Economy and then there's an
[36:51] SPEAKER_02: Adam Grant book that I was, oh, give and take. Give and take is a really good one just to, and that sort
[36:56] SPEAKER_01: of plays into the theme of empathetic leaders. Are you a morning or a night person?
[37:04] SPEAKER_02: Morning. Morning. I have a very early bedtime.
[37:09] SPEAKER_01: If you had to pick one word to describe yourself, what would you be and why?
[37:16] SPEAKER_02: Maybe, maybe purpose driven because everything including rest, including family time,
[37:21] SPEAKER_02: including everything is based on purpose. Like I put a lot of thought into how I spend my time.
[37:27] SPEAKER_01: Perfect. What is keeping you up at night these days?
[37:32] SPEAKER_02: Well, you know, the uncertainty of coronavirus and the timeline of, when do things go back to normal?
[37:37] SPEAKER_02: I have no idea. I mean, really, when you're running a company that is encouraging people to use
[37:41] SPEAKER_02: vacation time, right now nobody wants to use it because nobody can go anywhere, right? So
[37:46] SPEAKER_01: timeline uncertainties. Okay. And what is your favorite place in the world? Since you've
[37:51] SPEAKER_01: traveled a lot and you've seen, I it's probably going to be tough for you to answer, which is one
[37:57] SPEAKER_01: place, but if you have one place, what is it? Yeah. In terms of countries outside of Canada,
[38:06] SPEAKER_02: I would say, so I've been to Greece three times. That's why I would choose Greece for the
[38:12] SPEAKER_02: the Ben and breakfast, the food, the people. I'm also Portuguese. So there's a part of like the
[38:18] SPEAKER_02: Mediterranean in general that just feels like home, good people, cares about family, good food,
[38:24] SPEAKER_02: it's warm for most of the year. And then my grandparents, my great grandparents bought a
[38:32] SPEAKER_02: property in Moscoka in 1949. Oh wow. And so I have been very, very privileged in that my
[38:40] SPEAKER_02: grandparents have kept this property. And so that's been a gathering place for my family, my dad's
[38:46] SPEAKER_02: side of the family. And we've been able to bring other people up there. And so the ability to get
[38:50] SPEAKER_02: out of the city and spend time with people you care about and get to invite people up. And people's
[38:56] SPEAKER_02: reactions when they get up there always they're just so grateful to be there and to appreciate the
[39:00] SPEAKER_02: relationships that brought them there. So it's a good reminder of the importance of family time.
[39:05] SPEAKER_02: Unfortunately, not something we can do right now on these current circumstances. But
[39:09] SPEAKER_01: I'm quite soon enough. We'll be back to normal. I hope so. What are the some of the non-negotiables that
[39:18] SPEAKER_01: you have in either in the morning or evening routines? Do you have a cup of coffee,
[39:23] SPEAKER_01: do you meditate in the morning? Do you have something you do before bedtime?
[39:28] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I keep my morning meditations to about 10 minutes. And usually it's a guided meditation. So I
[39:33] SPEAKER_02: just plug my headphones in and I can just listen my way through it. And that keeps me from falling
[39:37] SPEAKER_02: asleep and it sort of keeps my mind on track of something. If I'm listening to something, I'm not
[39:42] SPEAKER_02: as good at meditating in complete silence. Something that I'd like to get better at.
[39:47] SPEAKER_02: I generally have one to two cups of coffee a day. It's just something that I enjoy doing and I
[39:53] SPEAKER_02: definitely never want to overdo it or get to a point where it's a complete dependency. But
[39:58] SPEAKER_02: a cup of coffee in the morning, I always make sure to eat breakfast, whether I'm hungry or not,
[40:03] SPEAKER_02: just because there's some I take a few vitamins, a multi-vitamin vitamin C, things like that,
[40:09] SPEAKER_02: vitamin D in the winter. And it's just easier to take those at home if I eat breakfast at home
[40:15] SPEAKER_02: than bringing all those things to the office where people just are looking at my collection of vitamins,
[40:19] SPEAKER_01: thinking I'm a crazy person. Okay, and last but not least, there's a small tropical island in
[40:26] SPEAKER_01: middle of the ocean with only one phone booth and no internet. We drop you off, there's no technology.
[40:34] SPEAKER_01: At any time you can use the phone booth on the island to call the boat to come pick you up.
[40:39] SPEAKER_01: How long would you last before making the phone call and what would you do until
[40:46] SPEAKER_02: Oh man. I think I think I would use that time of isolation to really do some good reflecting
[40:55] SPEAKER_02: because that's one thing that my team actually helped me realize this past summer. I finally took
[40:59] SPEAKER_02: a nine-day trip since starting the company first nine-day trip I've taken and it took me about
[41:04] SPEAKER_02: four days to fully disconnect and to not check anything and to just really give myself time to
[41:10] SPEAKER_02: be on vacation. So four days is what it took for me to actually feel like I was back to my normal self.
[41:17] SPEAKER_02: So I would like to think I could last a few days and then I would pick up the phone and call and
[41:22] SPEAKER_01: there was a second part to the questions. No, just what would you do and how long you would last?
[41:28] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I would probably sit and think hopefully it's sunny, hopefully I'm sitting in the sun,
[41:33] SPEAKER_02: getting some vitamin D, sit and think and process everything that I care about. I mean really it's
[41:40] SPEAKER_02: like a more glamorous version of the time that we're dealing with right now, right?
[41:47] SPEAKER_01: So if you can tell maybe our listeners where to find you on the online.
[41:53] SPEAKER_02: Yes, so our company website vacationfund.io. I am relatively accessible over LinkedIn as well,
[42:02] SPEAKER_02: but yeah our company website is the easiest way to get in touch with me.
[42:06] SPEAKER_01: That's awesome, Erica. Thank you so much for the interview. Thank you so much, Andrea.
[42:11] SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening to Canada's podcast. Like, comment and subscribe to all of our channels to get
[42:16] SPEAKER_00: the latest podcasts from educators across the minute.