Lessons from a serial tech and marketing startup entrepreneur

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[00:00] SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Canada's podcast.
[00:05] SPEAKER_01: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Canada's podcast.
[00:08] SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Rivers Corbin, and based out of Atlanta, Canada, hanging out with Rockstar
[00:14] SPEAKER_01: and our entrepreneurs.
[00:15] SPEAKER_01: And I got to go to you with us today, a great friend, a great colleague, a great supporter
[00:20] SPEAKER_01: of the entrepreneurship ecosystem throughout the region, Mr. David Olston hanging out.
[00:26] SPEAKER_01: If I remember correct, David, you're based at a homestead in Grand Bay.
[00:30] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, very much.
[00:32] SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much for joining us today on Canada's podcast, Mr. Phil Ditt, to have you here.
[00:38] SPEAKER_01: David, ladies and gentlemen, for those of you that don't know him, what many do, I used
[00:43] SPEAKER_01: to joke about the fact that I dream about a landed Canada region where kids before they
[00:50] SPEAKER_01: go to bed, and you know you've heard me say this before, David, would say, I don't want
[00:54] SPEAKER_01: to hear a fairy tale.
[00:55] SPEAKER_01: I want to hear the story about David Olston.
[00:58] SPEAKER_01: That's what I do.
[00:59] SPEAKER_01: The story of David Olston.
[01:00] SPEAKER_02: He does the name there, stories of kids who have nightmares all the time.
[01:04] SPEAKER_01: When you started our embody entrepreneurship in the region, and you know, you were one of
[01:09] SPEAKER_01: the founding board members, founding members of Radiant Six.
[01:13] SPEAKER_01: You were the entrepreneur residents with the government of New Brunswick.
[01:17] SPEAKER_01: You have been constantly helping the ecosystem move forward.
[01:22] SPEAKER_01: And before I dive into what you're doing now, because we're not going to tell that
[01:26] SPEAKER_01: Radiant Six story, it's been told.
[01:29] SPEAKER_01: We're not going to talk about stories about the contributions.
[01:32] SPEAKER_01: We're going to talk about you, the entrepreneur today.
[01:35] SPEAKER_01: But before I begin, tell us what you're seeing about the entrepreneur's kind of atmosphere,
[01:42] SPEAKER_01: infrastructure community in Atlanta, Canada.
[01:45] SPEAKER_01: Just give us a high level view from your perspective.
[01:48] SPEAKER_02: Well, it's been great to see all the entrepreneurs that I've been working with really adapt to,
[01:58] SPEAKER_02: I guess, really what the pandemic threw at them in terms of, you know, this massive disruption.
[02:03] SPEAKER_02: I mean, the entire world has been, get the big old reset button.
[02:07] SPEAKER_02: So all, every company had to go back to square one to figure out what they're going to do,
[02:12] SPEAKER_02: how they're going to handle it.
[02:14] SPEAKER_02: And, you know, whenever there's a disruption, as you know, as an entrepreneur,
[02:17] SPEAKER_02: that means there's an opportunity for the players and the rankings to shift.
[02:22] SPEAKER_02: And so I think the smart entrepreneurs, the smart business owners,
[02:25] SPEAKER_02: are the ones that look at this and say, you know, it's going to be a challenge,
[02:29] SPEAKER_02: but there's also an opportunity to potentially grow, maybe adapt,
[02:33] SPEAKER_02: and take on something new, find new people, grow the organization,
[02:41] SPEAKER_02: invent a new product, whatever it is.
[02:42] SPEAKER_02: And I think we're seeing a lot of that in Atlanta, Canada.
[02:45] SPEAKER_02: No doubt, though, of course, there's certain sectors that have really been pummeled
[02:49] SPEAKER_02: when it comes to, you know, like the tourism sector, a few others,
[02:53] SPEAKER_02: you know, the service, food service sector, all that, who tells.
[02:57] SPEAKER_02: I mean, though there is some rebound happening, it's certainly, they took a big hit.
[03:01] SPEAKER_02: And, but I'm seeing that with resilience.
[03:03] SPEAKER_02: I think Atlanta Canadians have always had to be resilient because, honestly,
[03:08] SPEAKER_02: you know, it's not like we have a massive market sitting right on our doorstep
[03:12] SPEAKER_02: that we can kind of like sell to.
[03:14] SPEAKER_02: We have to go, we have to export, we have to find customers, we have to be innovative,
[03:17] SPEAKER_02: we have to find, you know, really creative ways to keep costs down and keep quality up
[03:25] SPEAKER_02: or find ways to, you know, bundle services together
[03:30] SPEAKER_02: and that maybe in other markets you don't have to do that, you can just kind of specialize.
[03:32] SPEAKER_02: So I've seen a lot of resilience see, I've seen a lot of just, I don't know,
[03:39] SPEAKER_02: it's been great, it's been really encouraging to see, honestly,
[03:42] SPEAKER_02: to see how entrepreneurs are really reacted through the last couple of years.
[03:46] SPEAKER_01: There doesn't seem to be a lot of quote unquote whining.
[03:49] SPEAKER_01: There seems to be a lot of, let's get to it.
[03:51] SPEAKER_01: Let's just try to expand it.
[03:53] SPEAKER_01: You know, I don't know if you know, feeling boll hands from St. John,
[03:57] SPEAKER_01: you probably do, she says, she's a marketing guru.
[04:01] SPEAKER_01: And in the region anyway, at the beginning of the pandemic,
[04:04] SPEAKER_01: I had a conversation with her, she says, this is, this is going to watch a
[04:08] SPEAKER_01: entrepreneur's or maybe it's just another freaking day.
[04:11] SPEAKER_01: It's just whether it's a lost customer or, you know, or a staff member
[04:16] SPEAKER_01: and then that whatever we face and stuff all the time.
[04:21] SPEAKER_01: So we can all put it in, it's pretty cool.
[04:25] SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, I agree with the resiliency there and, you know,
[04:28] SPEAKER_01: we've kind of been dealing with that for decades and decades being the
[04:31] SPEAKER_01: underdog in our region.
[04:32] SPEAKER_01: And I think that's really starting to shine now as we, as we focus in on what
[04:36] SPEAKER_01: we do now and interestingly enough, the course, the quality of life now,
[04:40] SPEAKER_01: it's on, I mean, immigration is not the new Brunswick more than it's
[04:45] SPEAKER_01: ever been, not necessarily because of country, but because of the other
[04:48] SPEAKER_01: people, they're a kind of say, I want to hang out there.
[04:51] SPEAKER_01: Looks like a close call.
[04:52] SPEAKER_02: Well, you know, you know, our region seen John where I'm, where I'm
[04:57] SPEAKER_02: a, I don't think I've seen so many cranes in the skyline as I do right now.
[05:03] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I would never have predicted that a pandemic would be the time when
[05:09] SPEAKER_02: the resurgence would be happening and the growth would be happening.
[05:13] SPEAKER_02: I would not, I'm sure you and I would would have bet money on that.
[05:17] SPEAKER_02: Like just that you would assume you'd be all the contraction and,
[05:20] SPEAKER_02: and you know, like, you got like, soft, your money away, but I think what we're
[05:27] SPEAKER_02: seeing is like, like you said, a ton of demand of people moving to Atlanta,
[05:30] SPEAKER_02: Canada, to New Brunswick, they're seeing that quality of life, the whole
[05:34] SPEAKER_02: aspect of work at home, you know, well from anywhere is kicked in.
[05:39] SPEAKER_02: So people are like, you know what, and affordability of homes.
[05:44] SPEAKER_02: So, you know, certainly we've seen us on a great influx starting to happen and continuing.
[05:53] SPEAKER_02: And it's really up to us as the Canadian to figure it a way to continue to
[05:56] SPEAKER_02: fan those flames in terms of growth and recognize that we've always had these amazing
[06:03] SPEAKER_02: assets. It's just people are able to get recognized. They weren't looking.
[06:07] SPEAKER_02: So now they're looking. So now I need to make sure that we can find a way to meet that
[06:11] SPEAKER_02: demand and continue to grow. I'm sure you know what? There's no reason why
[06:17] SPEAKER_02: Brunswick can't be a million people, you know, and within the next 10 years or so.
[06:22] SPEAKER_01: There's no reason. Real reason. We sure have got the space.
[06:26] SPEAKER_01: That's the issue. I'm sure you've got the space.
[06:29] SPEAKER_01: And I think that's represented across the country, or sorry across the region too,
[06:34] SPEAKER_01: and I think you may be a little bit more condensed, but definitely in no
[06:37] SPEAKER_01: exposure in Newfoundland. Well look, it's just on a spot where you sit. You can work anywhere
[06:45] SPEAKER_01: in now. But you've recently pivoted and I think pivoted on all the pivoted or just started
[06:53] SPEAKER_01: a new direction. I mean you were IT guy. That's what your brand was based upon.
[06:58] SPEAKER_01: And then you, your family and your college started to think of timber top adventures,
[07:05] SPEAKER_01: which is not about working anywhere. And yet we were talking about early, if your business
[07:10] SPEAKER_01: actually tried to the pandemic. So take us through the journey of timber top because I like
[07:16] SPEAKER_01: many others kind of looked at that twice. We said, David Olstin's doing what?
[07:23] SPEAKER_01: That's not who you are that we know. So why talk about timber top as a, you know,
[07:29] SPEAKER_01: is the value proposition and what intrigued you to put your resources behind it? Talk about that
[07:35] SPEAKER_00: first six months. Well, here's the thing. With me, I love building things. I love that part of
[07:47] SPEAKER_02: the start of the scene. Some people like the kind of the operations of a startup, you know,
[07:55] SPEAKER_02: once it starts to get in place, like they're more of an operator where I'm more of a building.
[07:59] SPEAKER_02: So if you look back over my journey, you know, yes, most of my kind of like
[08:07] SPEAKER_02: adventures, you know, the opponent ended were in the IT sector. But it was usually building things
[08:13] SPEAKER_02: and then getting to the point where the thing was at an operational stage and then
[08:17] SPEAKER_02: jumping to something, the next thing and building something, right? I think your builder as well.
[08:21] SPEAKER_02: I mean, you might have a built team. 100%. So, for me, it was like, you know, I've been doing a lot
[08:28] SPEAKER_02: in the tech sector. But it was like, you know, part of me was when I was a kid, I was outdoors all the
[08:36] SPEAKER_02: time. That was my innovative building things. I was building stuff across my dad's farm, my
[08:51] SPEAKER_02: kids. You name it, you know, it was all kinds of stuff. Barnes, Hay, so it was every morning you
[08:57] SPEAKER_02: woke up and you're like, what am I going to build today? What am I going to go? You know, I remember
[09:02] SPEAKER_02: my poor dad having to deal with one building phase I went through where I was building massive tunnels
[09:10] SPEAKER_02: in kind of like underground, almost like igloo's kind of the square bales of Hay up in the
[09:16] SPEAKER_02: mount in the hay mount. And so, it was all summer long, build this entire network. And I, I'm sure
[09:24] SPEAKER_02: if you had a microphone on my dad in the mount, as he was going up to get the hay, you know,
[09:29] SPEAKER_02: he'd be falling through into all of these things, like, all right, you'd be stepping on some of the
[09:33] SPEAKER_02: shoes, people like, oh geez, you know what? Because they were just riddled through the mount, right?
[09:38] SPEAKER_02: But I mean, that was me. I always like taking on something, being creative, thinking it through,
[09:44] SPEAKER_02: and I love a challenge. You know, that as you know, when you start off with some brand new idea,
[09:50] SPEAKER_02: there's a ton of unknown. There's a ton of learning that has to happen.
[09:53] SPEAKER_02: Yes. You're starting from zero off. And so, if I went into another tech business,
[09:59] SPEAKER_02: I wouldn't be starting at zero. So it wasn't as much, honestly, it'd be fun, but it wouldn't be
[10:03] SPEAKER_02: as much fun as picking something that was rightly opposite. But keep in mind, you also have to work
[10:08] SPEAKER_02: on something you're passionate, right? Over. Generally, that's a good idea. So, after a lot of
[10:14] SPEAKER_02: your stuff, you get into, I can see you're passionate, and I can, you know, you have different passions
[10:19] SPEAKER_02: that you're involved in, and often cooking, is got a piece of that, right? Or the shout out of the
[10:24] SPEAKER_02: food. There's something aspect of that. So with me, I mean, I'd really never exploring the outdoor
[10:29] SPEAKER_02: part in a long time since I was a kid. So I really started enjoying getting to know another woods.
[10:35] SPEAKER_02: That first six months, honestly, was wandering around the woods, trying to figure things out,
[10:39] SPEAKER_02: making farm calls, talking to different vendors that supplied that industry,
[10:43] SPEAKER_02: and the area, the venture part business. And my philosophy of a startup is every day,
[10:48] SPEAKER_02: try to find a way to kill the idea before you start, before you actually put a dollar in it,
[10:53] SPEAKER_02: or a lot of dollars in it, start to try to kill the idea.
[10:57] SPEAKER_01: Okay. So, so, kill can be regarded as kill isn't knock it out of the park, or kill could be like dead.
[11:03] SPEAKER_01: What do you mean by kill? Well, I guess you were actually, you know what? It's probably both,
[11:07] SPEAKER_02: honestly, in your way. But I think I'd start off with try to kill it to dead, and if you can't kill
[11:14] SPEAKER_02: it to dead, then you might be able to kill it in terms of success. Okay, cool. Yep.
[11:19] SPEAKER_02: Well, I like to kind of the twist you put on it, but, but so, honestly, I spent six months basically
[11:25] SPEAKER_02: trying to kill the idea, because usually, you know, the idea came more or less from when we were
[11:31] SPEAKER_02: in vacation, like, I don't know about you, whenever I'm in vacation, you're seeing all kinds of new ideas,
[11:36] SPEAKER_01: you're meeting new people. Right? I always say that being an entrepreneur is the most wonderful curse
[11:42] SPEAKER_01: you'll ever go through. Of course. You never can relax. Like, I might get a day in, and then I'm
[11:47] SPEAKER_02: starting to see ideas and I'm talking to people and seeing stuff. So, very good, my wife, she's just,
[11:53] SPEAKER_02: you know, you know, she's like, the venture just gives up and just says, okay, I'm going to go along
[11:57] SPEAKER_02: with this. Every vacation is going to be going on in cheap brainstorms with me and stuff. So,
[12:02] SPEAKER_02: this idea kind of came out of the vacation we had done in Canmore as a family, Canmore and Bam.
[12:07] SPEAKER_02: And so, a beautiful spot, wonderful outdoor, you know, stuff that you can do there, and we always
[12:13] SPEAKER_02: do stuff outdoors as a family whenever we did travel. So, that kind of reignited this idea of,
[12:19] SPEAKER_02: like, there's, there's no, there's no, Aaron, the eventual park in the C&G area.
[12:24] SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I think we could do something really incredible, something different. I mean,
[12:29] SPEAKER_02: you were on the cast of some of those, but yes, we imagine something different than that. And so,
[12:36] SPEAKER_02: it was really an exploration over that first six months to the point where eventually it's like,
[12:41] SPEAKER_02: you know what, I can't seem to kill the idea. So, I think that means the idea needs to survive,
[12:45] SPEAKER_02: and it needs to be built. And so, it was kind of like, I had, it was almost like, I hadn't,
[12:50] SPEAKER_02: we had no choice. We had to build, because it was like, it was crazy not to, was that?
[12:56] SPEAKER_01: You had to get some sleep. So, exactly. We're going on, that's good, it's good, we're going on with it.
[13:02] SPEAKER_02: Exactly. We're going to go here, we're going to kill it. One of the two, but it's, it looks like
[13:06] SPEAKER_02: it'd be silly to kill it, so we're going to have to do it. Thank you. And did you, you know, you
[13:11] SPEAKER_01: talked about the, you were going to do it differently. You've heard me say many times that you succeed
[13:17] SPEAKER_01: in life, not alone business, you say, what everybody else is like. So, talk about that,
[13:22] SPEAKER_01: you talk about that differentiation, because there are similar
[13:28] SPEAKER_01: activities, locations, if you want to call it that, in the restaurant. So, how is Timbertop
[13:34] SPEAKER_01: different from those experiences? And did you evolve into that difference?
[13:39] SPEAKER_01: For you, if you're right from the beginning, you know, this is the difference.
[13:42] SPEAKER_02: Right from the beginning. So, like, it was more about building something that would be,
[13:50] SPEAKER_02: like, I often talk, when I talk to startups, I say, you should build,
[13:56] SPEAKER_02: like the viral nature of the idea and the experience great into the product from the start.
[14:03] SPEAKER_00: Don't worry about that. So, what do you mean by that? Yeah, so, viral as in, people can't help
[14:10] SPEAKER_00: it and want to talk about it. Okay, cool. Yeah, there's a lot of good, hopefully in a great way.
[14:15] SPEAKER_02: Right? So, for example, you know, like, and it should be tried to, like, try to be special in every
[14:22] SPEAKER_02: aspect of the business so that, you know, not everyone's going to hone in on one thing, but if you
[14:26] SPEAKER_02: have, if you're special all across the board, people are going to, word of mouth is just going to have,
[14:32] SPEAKER_02: but it's like people will just be so excited about it and want to tell their friends, right? That's
[14:36] SPEAKER_02: the best thing, rather than take something that's just like everything else and then try to ramp
[14:40] SPEAKER_02: marketing around it, which you can do, but it's, yeah, it is hard and it costs a lot of money to do
[14:45] SPEAKER_02: that when you have, instead of coming up with a differentiated special product. So, that's what we did,
[14:50] SPEAKER_02: honestly. I mean, I remember, like, things like, rather than going and getting a builder to build it,
[14:57] SPEAKER_02: like most parks would be built by a builder, and they specialize in this thing. And they're
[15:02] SPEAKER_02: builders around North America that you could write a check to and they can come in and they'll build you
[15:06] SPEAKER_02: a park. The problem is they build you park like everyone else's park. Yeah, it's the same thing.
[15:12] SPEAKER_02: So you lose the differentiation. So instead it was, and honestly, with the size of our market, there's
[15:17] SPEAKER_02: no way we can afford to build a special park in a market, our size, and write a check that Zen is
[15:24] SPEAKER_02: going to actually make you money in the end, right? It doesn't work. We have to think outside the box.
[15:28] SPEAKER_02: So it was like, okay, instead, can we find a couple of people that have built parks that are
[15:33] SPEAKER_02: willing to consult with us to build our own capacity of our own building team, and then certify that
[15:39] SPEAKER_02: after so that we know what we did everything perfectly. So we have kind of like the best of both
[15:44] SPEAKER_02: worlds. We learn the techniques. We become a builder and an operator at the same time.
[15:50] SPEAKER_01: Is your dad still with us? Yes. He must have just been real going through this journey with you.
[15:57] SPEAKER_02: You had to have a couple of people with us. Well, I think it was like, my dad, I don't think he
[16:03] SPEAKER_02: really thought I had it in me in terms of building things with my hands. He was always busy in the farm,
[16:09] SPEAKER_02: like taking care of stuff, and I was off doing different things, but anything I would have been built,
[16:14] SPEAKER_02: would have been not necessarily, it would have been just a tack together or something, right? So
[16:18] SPEAKER_02: it was actually probably 20 years ago when I completely renovated the house we bought from,
[16:24] SPEAKER_02: with help of lots of different trades, but they couldn't believe that I'd actually pick up a hammer
[16:29] SPEAKER_02: and saw and do these kinds of things, right? So I think he had gotten over that like 20 years ago.
[16:34] SPEAKER_02: So the fact that he's always been an entrepreneur himself. He's always done some stuff,
[16:39] SPEAKER_02: building things, and creating stuff. So I get a bit of that, I think, for him. So anyway,
[16:45] SPEAKER_02: but different things like that. Trying to figure out the actual
[16:51] SPEAKER_02: challenges, because an aerial adventure park basically is a combination of zip lines and
[16:55] SPEAKER_02: challenges between trees. And usually their bridges are this or that or their police are involved,
[17:02] SPEAKER_02: or sorry, sorry, yeah, zip line police are involved. But the idea is to create kind of a challenge.
[17:07] SPEAKER_02: How am I going to get from this tree to the next tree and through this challenge, right? And I have to
[17:11] SPEAKER_02: use my strength, I have to use my brain, you know, I have to kind of think through the problem.
[17:17] SPEAKER_02: And so I literally probably spend I don't know 100 hours on YouTube, literally going through
[17:22] SPEAKER_02: first person shooter videos or promotional videos. And then I'd see some kind of challenge and go,
[17:28] SPEAKER_02: well, I haven't seen that before. I'd take a freeze, freeze grab, you know, a screen grab, throw it
[17:34] SPEAKER_02: in a file, print off a stack of photos at Walmart. I swear with this high, all these different things,
[17:39] SPEAKER_02: right? And we literally sat down with that consultant with our builder and said, okay,
[17:43] SPEAKER_02: how would you build that? And they like draw it all out. And so then it was like, okay,
[17:49] SPEAKER_02: how would you build that? And we spent like, I think, 10 hours straight doing that with the
[17:52] SPEAKER_02: consultant. By the time we were done, our builder, who was in a main building with incredible builder
[17:58] SPEAKER_02: that I've known since I was a kid, he literally started to figure out all the time like the building
[18:04] SPEAKER_02: blocks. So then we knew how to build it. Like, it was like, okay, that's like this, but just a
[18:09] SPEAKER_02: little bit different. And that's like this, a little bit different. So, you know, and then if through
[18:14] SPEAKER_02: just working with the consultants, we figured it out. So the point is we were building a different
[18:17] SPEAKER_02: product. We were doing things differently. We were trying to get out of the box in terms of
[18:21] SPEAKER_02: cost structure. We're trying to, you know, and honestly, all those decisions plus probably another
[18:26] SPEAKER_02: 20 or so that are differentiated have all created, you know, a product, including, for example,
[18:33] SPEAKER_01: recruiting staff rather than just going to ask you that I told us so cool. We are like,
[18:39] SPEAKER_01: talk about that for a second because you're a brand guy. You can't imagine that you can't have
[18:45] SPEAKER_01: Mickey Mouse smoking a cigarette. It doesn't work. So how did you, what was the focus on the team
[18:51] SPEAKER_01: to represent the brand? Talk a bit about that because that's important. Yeah, no, it's absolutely
[18:57] SPEAKER_02: true. So again, you try to create these, I call them, well, I guess it's a common phrase,
[19:04] SPEAKER_02: but unfair competitive advantage. So like, what are the things built in that give you an advantage?
[19:08] SPEAKER_02: One of the things that we had was our operations manager also was a teacher and he taught
[19:13] SPEAKER_02: it in the middle school locally, okay? And he still does. And so he has his summers off. So that's,
[19:18] SPEAKER_02: he works well for him. He works in the summer and then there's weekends obviously. He
[19:22] SPEAKER_02: double dips on the weekends in terms of like having to work five days a week as a teacher and then
[19:26] SPEAKER_02: all weekend. He's an incredible worker, great entrepreneur. Love it. Okay? But he also,
[19:33] SPEAKER_02: his class, he teaches every kid in the class because he teaches technology. And so he got to know
[19:39] SPEAKER_02: all the, I call them entrepreneurial leadership oriented kids in that school. But he also knew
[19:44] SPEAKER_02: other teachers that also knew entrepreneurial kids in other schools. So and plus our kids were still
[19:51] SPEAKER_02: just graduating and stuff. So we went literally when we were going to these, the word ceremonies.
[19:57] SPEAKER_02: We were like, okay, what's that name person? Okay, we got to, oh yeah, like we were scouts.
[20:04] SPEAKER_02: We were like, okay, I like that. They got a lot of, oh, one four words in leadership. Okay,
[20:09] SPEAKER_02: they're on the list. And then we be prudent. Okay? And what the idea was is that we create,
[20:15] SPEAKER_02: and obviously even on the website, we say we're looking for leaders. Yeah, leaders,
[20:20] SPEAKER_02: we're on looking for leaders. We're not looking for staff, we're looking for leaders,
[20:23] SPEAKER_02: and we're looking for entrepreneurs, and we're going to, we're going to empower you. We're going to
[20:27] SPEAKER_02: give you aspects of the business to learn. And so each one of the, especially in the early days,
[20:32] SPEAKER_02: as we were building, we be, we treat it like a startup. We got these, they'd be in high school,
[20:38] SPEAKER_02: they'd be in first year, second university, but we're bringing them in and we're exposing them to
[20:43] SPEAKER_02: the business, the mechanics of what makes it tech, the experience for trying to create. And we,
[20:49] SPEAKER_02: we opened, we didn't just say you're a kid, we're only going to give you that stuff, do this,
[20:53] SPEAKER_02: repeat, you know, no, you're going to, you're going to be problem solving with this. You're going
[20:56] SPEAKER_02: to be helping to fix things as we go. We're going to be tweaking things, making them better. We want
[21:00] SPEAKER_02: your ideas, right? And so by doing that, the, the, the chance, there are chance to be exposed,
[21:06] SPEAKER_02: a lot more stuff, buy into the whole idea, and they were literally creating their own part,
[21:09] SPEAKER_02: they're creating their own business with us, right? So what, what the incredible part of that is,
[21:15] SPEAKER_02: uh, reverse is that, you know, we, it's almost like we're, we're trying to out Disney Disney in
[21:22] SPEAKER_02: terms of experience. Yeah. And so, you know, often when you go into a business that's run by,
[21:29] SPEAKER_02: you know, teens or university students, you know, and this is unfortunate, but often we'll go
[21:35] SPEAKER_02: off, drop our expectations, right? Right? Which is, which is unfair, but often happens in
[21:43] SPEAKER_02: it's like the, so the expectations when someone came to us, they saw, oh, we have all bunch of
[21:47] SPEAKER_02: teens, they're probably thinking, oh, yeah, I mean, that can be great, but we blow them away.
[21:53] SPEAKER_02: Every single one would be, how are you? Great, great lots of smiles, greeting. You know,
[21:59] SPEAKER_02: how is your day? You haven't fun the whole bit. And so what's incredible about that is,
[22:04] SPEAKER_02: we have, if you check out our reviews, 99% of those reviews will always talk about our step.
[22:11] SPEAKER_01: And how incredible they are. And, and your staff and you just were nominated for a national award,
[22:20] SPEAKER_02: were you not? Yeah, so we're fortunate to be nominated. Um, I think it's, I, with the, the
[22:27] SPEAKER_02: national, the Canadian Tourism Association. Um, it's, I think it's a standing business achievement,
[22:34] SPEAKER_02: Air Canada award or something like that. Yeah, it's right. Yeah, yeah. And so we're up against two
[22:39] SPEAKER_02: other, I believe I forget the name of the, the ice hotel, and I forget the name of it,
[22:44] SPEAKER_02: Quebec City, and also a company that does video projection stuff in Montreal, I think, for
[22:51] SPEAKER_01: being strong, but, uh, yeah. That's awesome. And of course, I mean, your team would be very excited
[22:56] SPEAKER_01: about that. Why I mentioned that is because, is because what you understand, ladies and gentlemen,
[23:02] SPEAKER_01: Timbertop has not been around for 25 years. You're like less than five years, is that fair to say?
[23:08] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we just wrapped up our fourth season. Yeah. So, yeah, this weekend we are. Yeah.
[23:13] SPEAKER_01: Yeah. Well, congratulations on that. And our experiences are really about the, it is an
[23:18] SPEAKER_01: experientially economy right now. And I think that those people that push the edge in, and,
[23:23] SPEAKER_01: and from a, um, a lesson perspective for the entrepreneurs that are leading you in here,
[23:29] SPEAKER_01: I always like to teach them and be in touch on it is that you can actually charge a premium price
[23:35] SPEAKER_01: because of that experience. So you can have it, how do you, how do you figure out what you've
[23:41] SPEAKER_01: excited to bought in mind? You said or say, no, I got a premium experience here and I need the
[23:46] SPEAKER_02: price to reflect that. Yeah. So, so it's a premium price, though, at the same time, it's a
[23:53] SPEAKER_02: all-coloured-y discounted price in a way because number one, most, the aerial of inter parks in our
[24:00] SPEAKER_02: province would be, would have five courses. We have 12. So we're like, over almost two and a half
[24:07] SPEAKER_02: times, besides of that. We have, we, we have a different model in terms of, you have three hours of
[24:16] SPEAKER_02: playtime on our main courses. You can, you can, you can, you can climb in any order you want,
[24:22] SPEAKER_02: you have three hours of play. It's almost like going to a scale where the other models are more
[24:28] SPEAKER_02: golf course models, which is you play a course, play a next one. Oh, it's giving too hard. I drop
[24:33] SPEAKER_02: out, you're done. So, you know, it's kind of like, you're usually, you'd be getting more time,
[24:38] SPEAKER_02: more courses. You have the gear we're using is locking carabiners, so you're locking in the courses,
[24:45] SPEAKER_02: like the, you've got that extra kind of like, as a parent, you're saying, oh, good, that means my
[24:49] SPEAKER_02: kid, once they leave, they're not going to be standing on a platform 50, you know, 40 feet up.
[24:54] SPEAKER_02: Yeah. Oh, my gosh, you're not connected. So there's like those aspects, again, those are part of
[24:59] SPEAKER_02: that overall, how do we knock it out of the park in every level? And so I'd say we're charging
[25:04] SPEAKER_02: a slight premium over the kind of the going rate, but if you consider all of that stuff, we could
[25:10] SPEAKER_02: probably charge double, but we're not. You have to price it for your market too. Your market only
[25:15] SPEAKER_02: has so much elasticity, right? So we try to, we, and honestly, I think everyone loves the,
[25:22] SPEAKER_02: the bargain, like in terms of the value they're getting, and we see that. So,
[25:27] SPEAKER_01: it's the best you can do from that perspective. Yeah. Well, and I don't want to, you know, I think
[25:31] SPEAKER_01: the important piece of my message is, you know, it's, it, it, I always say, we, we started with
[25:37] SPEAKER_01: with Relesgor and my burgers, we were premium price, but we weren't expensive.
[25:40] SPEAKER_01: Right. Exactly. It's really allowed us to be that differentiator asked, so people to ask why,
[25:45] SPEAKER_01: and then ultimately delivers three, four times the value of that. You got a second,
[25:50] SPEAKER_01: you got a second temper top opening, or something. Yeah. So, yeah. So this is part of, again,
[25:57] SPEAKER_02: the resilience part. So, yeah. As you know, probably by just looking at like the fact that, you know,
[26:04] SPEAKER_02: we have snow or we have winter weather half the year, I'd like, let's say Florida that might
[26:10] SPEAKER_02: have the able to have a tourism operation indeed, you know, have people coming all year round.
[26:14] SPEAKER_02: We obviously up in Canada have to deal with a winter season and a summer season.
[26:20] SPEAKER_02: I know, obviously, the shoulder season. So, the idea was, look, we've got all this equipment.
[26:25] SPEAKER_02: We do have staff that we want to keep around potentially with the, with a lot. We've invested a
[26:30] SPEAKER_02: lot in their knowledge. So, how do we create an experience where we can take that existing
[26:38] SPEAKER_02: equipment, all that gear we have to sit there for six months and those nothing, and how do we create
[26:43] SPEAKER_02: a winter experience? Because that's the other thing. There's not a lot of things you can do in the winter time.
[26:47] SPEAKER_02: I mean, there is, but there isn't. You know, like it's not like summer where you can literally just
[26:52] SPEAKER_02: go outside and, you know, do stuff and, you know, usually in winter you plan for, right? You plan
[26:58] SPEAKER_02: for high-prep, plan to go skiing or whatever. But there's, well, we look, remember, there's no winter
[27:03] SPEAKER_02: zip lining experience in their times in the free provinces, you know, our province in the two
[27:07] SPEAKER_02: Jason ones. So, it's like, you know, I think there's an opportunity to create some kind of cool
[27:12] SPEAKER_02: experience. And again, not to just create something that everyone else has done, but let's be
[27:16] SPEAKER_02: differentiated. So, Marcel LeBron and his wife Sheila and Marcel used to be at Radiance
[27:22] SPEAKER_02: Sex, so good friend. They own a ranch, a nonprofit and Steiner-Mound, which is going to narrow away.
[27:31] SPEAKER_02: And they run camps in the summertime, but in the winter time, generally, it's not used as much.
[27:37] SPEAKER_02: Some winter camps, but beautiful forests, 500 acres, beautiful forests, ranch, horses.
[27:45] SPEAKER_02: It's just magical when you're there in the winter time to see all the snow on the trees and
[27:49] SPEAKER_01: it's a beautiful setting. And so, I mean, just for perspective, for people listening, it's just
[27:54] SPEAKER_02: that's that's right. That's right. Just outside of suffix. And what's cool about it is that what
[28:01] SPEAKER_02: we were able to do is create a zip line course last winter time. That's when you build courses
[28:05] SPEAKER_02: when the trees are dormant. So, we built this zip line course and it goes way out into the woods.
[28:10] SPEAKER_02: And then at the end of the woods, we built this like a lean-to and we'll have like fire and
[28:16] SPEAKER_02: you can sit around and kind of warm up. And then we'll have a horse and slag come, you'll get on
[28:22] SPEAKER_02: the horse and slag and go all the way back on the trip back on the horse and slag back through the
[28:26] SPEAKER_02: ranch. And it's like a top like as far as I know, it's the only combination like that in the entire
[28:31] SPEAKER_02: world, but maybe there's something somewhere. But it creates this hopefully like a drop, right?
[28:35] SPEAKER_02: And the beautiful thing about, I guess, in Sussex is that it kind of is epicenter between the three
[28:41] SPEAKER_02: kind of major cities and the Brunswick, right? So, people jumping in the car, 40 minutes hour,
[28:50] SPEAKER_02: they're there, they're having some fun. It's kind of a fun experience for them to do. It's unique.
[28:55] SPEAKER_02: And you know, honestly, Sussex is kind of known for its winter sports because it's got this
[28:59] SPEAKER_02: the pulley, malware that's got like a lot of people do, snowmobiling, a lot of people do
[29:05] SPEAKER_02: ATV stuff. So, and it's got like a lot of different heights like the Paralybroke Ampitheater and
[29:10] SPEAKER_02: even the Midland Ice Caves. So, it's become almost like a, we go for winter activities. So, it's
[29:16] SPEAKER_02: already got a bit of that momentum. So, us joining that fray, I think, is going to be good too.
[29:21] SPEAKER_01: Again, let another lesson, ladies and gentlemen, it's coming off of that. David said, okay, I want to grow,
[29:26] SPEAKER_01: are there other resources that exist? I don't have to re, I don't have to create it. I can, oh, I got
[29:32] SPEAKER_01: my friend Marcel who's an entrepreneur. He brings value to him, brings value to you. And there's
[29:38] SPEAKER_01: a lot of those quote unquote joint venture opportunities that exist or entrepreneurs around the region.
[29:43] SPEAKER_01: The lock arms with somebody I just, with my business chef, Foriel right now, I'm connected with a
[29:49] SPEAKER_01: food incubator of Chicago who was interested in our company working with their chefs.
[29:57] SPEAKER_01: It's all perfect stuff. You just think how you can bring value to each other.
[30:02] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the aspect of that, of course, is that it comes down to resources. And again, I think we
[30:08] SPEAKER_02: have as Len Kenanians, we all have to think about, we can't build it all. So, how do we partner? How do
[30:13] SPEAKER_02: we create joint value? As an example, let's spin off bonus for Snyder Mount Ranch during the
[30:22] SPEAKER_02: summer camps. They were able to offer a portion of the courses as a zipline experience.
[30:27] SPEAKER_02: And we came down and we operated that for them as part of the deal. So, they win, we win,
[30:34] SPEAKER_02: hopefully customers win this winter when they come and experience it. So,
[30:39] SPEAKER_01: we still got more stuff happening with David also. And I promise him, just 40 minutes, but we're
[30:44] SPEAKER_01: going longer, David, because it's such a great story. You tell me if you got to go because the next
[30:49] SPEAKER_01: thing right now is this church. David decided to marry Gwen and decide, and he's right,
[30:56] SPEAKER_01: very good tonight, a friend some long time ago. And I sometimes wonder what she does when you go
[31:01] SPEAKER_01: on to watch what your idea is. But, uh, great support for you. Uh, is it? I'm going to not buy
[31:08] SPEAKER_01: a church. You actually had the indoor component that you wanted to bring. Talk about this, and this
[31:14] SPEAKER_01: by the way, ladies and gentlemen, is happening during the pandemic. So, it's the resilient base. Let's
[31:19] SPEAKER_01: go do more, less anything. Let's really look at the resources that exist. Back to you on the church,
[31:25] SPEAKER_01: the next part of your launch for no story, which is so far away from an IT, although,
[31:32] SPEAKER_01: although when you started reading six, weren't you in some sort of a farm somewhere in the
[31:37] SPEAKER_02: St. Mary's? I think in the area it was. We eventually in a house for a while there, but we started
[31:43] SPEAKER_02: off in the like the same two offices in the NRS. So, yeah, so I will say, you know, like,
[31:51] SPEAKER_02: Mary Gwen is often not on these interviews. She prefers, she doesn't, she's like, she's, you take
[31:57] SPEAKER_02: on these interviews and stuff, but we are, we are partners on this. You know, we're partners on
[32:02] SPEAKER_02: these ventures. And honestly, I wouldn't be doing any of this stuff without Mary Gwen because,
[32:06] SPEAKER_02: all the stuff that I'm not necessarily really good at in terms of the operation side,
[32:11] SPEAKER_02: the financial side, the HR side, all the inner workings of the business, as you know,
[32:16] SPEAKER_02: Bill's got to be paid. People need to be paid, you know, all that I've missed about. She's
[32:20] SPEAKER_02: taking that on, though, she has said the church is the last one. Yeah, it will be no more. I don't
[32:29] SPEAKER_02: know what that means because I already told you every four years, I got to build something. I
[32:32] SPEAKER_02: know I'm your builder. Was that your builder? I know. So, I'm not sure what I'm going to do in four
[32:39] SPEAKER_02: years from now. I'll have to invent some new idea to convince her, but I don't think she's going to
[32:43] SPEAKER_02: convince again because often what happens with forces that she continues to add these to her
[32:48] SPEAKER_02: back office stuff. And it's, it's a seven day a week job for her too. So, she's going to be pulled
[32:55] SPEAKER_02: along the journey. So she's fantastic and she's doing great. But so a good lesson is make sure you
[33:01] SPEAKER_02: have a partner that is in it and loves what they're doing too and is in a fantastic partner.
[33:06] SPEAKER_02: The beautiful. So the church, honestly, again, it was this idea,
[33:14] SPEAKER_02: partly, it's got a name, the church. Well, actually, we call it the business name is
[33:24] SPEAKER_02: Clim 1884. And the idea is the building, the church was built in 1884, erected. So,
[33:32] SPEAKER_02: 137 year old church, Gothic architecture, amazing stained glass windows, like absolute works in
[33:39] SPEAKER_02: art, this cool venue. This is not the first time climbing gym would be built inside a church.
[33:45] SPEAKER_02: There are ones that go back. I think there's some maybe a summit Ontario. There's some in the
[33:49] SPEAKER_02: States or some lots in Europe, but, but it's still a unique venue to build because you have,
[33:55] SPEAKER_02: you have this great height inside a church, right? In terms of climbing up. And this is a roast
[34:01] SPEAKER_02: gym. We're not we're not like there are bouldering gyms out there in their market. So we're focused
[34:06] SPEAKER_02: on mainly ropes oriented. So like top rope lead climbing, a lot of a lay climbing, that kind of thing.
[34:13] SPEAKER_02: And the idea is to basically build inside this church and to the church was empty for the last
[34:21] SPEAKER_02: three years. The diocese was getting rid of it. They plus the rectory next door. We ended up buying
[34:27] SPEAKER_02: both of them because they were a package deal. So the rectory is now up for sale. But,
[34:34] SPEAKER_02: yeah, the church basically is this beautiful piece of architecture. And it was, we like,
[34:42] SPEAKER_02: Mary went in the eyes, it's the church was like, Mary, and I were married in the church.
[34:46] SPEAKER_02: That no longer exists because it was a beautiful church and they tried eventually the congregation
[34:54] SPEAKER_02: from this is a karma story. Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah, they sold it. The new organization tried to
[35:00] SPEAKER_02: make a goal of it, tried to make like, to, you know, to invent some way to pay the bills and pay the
[35:06] SPEAKER_02: heed and keep it going, but I didn't see couldn't do it. It's now beautiful condos that are built
[35:11] SPEAKER_02: on top, which is amazing asset to have. But churches, if our buildings, if there are no longer churches.
[35:18] SPEAKER_02: And if you can't find a sustainable way, a business inside them, they will eventually have to
[35:24] SPEAKER_02: go some like, you know, I mean, they can't survive forever. So we feel that this is a way to preserve
[35:31] SPEAKER_02: this piece of history. And at the same time, Phil and Eve, that there's no other ropes gym,
[35:38] SPEAKER_02: dedicated ropes, ropes gym like this in the province. And this is amazing amount of climbing,
[35:43] SPEAKER_02: outdoor climbing around the scene, John area, literally the epistemic of ropes climbing in the
[35:48] SPEAKER_02: Maritimes, probably even the Atlantic Canada in the way because there's like over a thousand
[35:54] SPEAKER_02: roots of doors that have been created by the amazing organization called the St. and Brunswick.
[35:58] SPEAKER_02: And so in all the volunteers, so we have this amazing outdoor asset that a lot of people don't
[36:04] SPEAKER_02: even know. And we have this growing, growing industry around climbing. Just think I look at the
[36:11] SPEAKER_02: Olympics, which did now includes climbing. So it was really like, how do we, how do we create again?
[36:17] SPEAKER_02: Another adventure thing, this time indoors, that if we're able to have staff that we can,
[36:22] SPEAKER_02: you know, like, for example, if we can't afford a full-time marketer for any one of the businesses,
[36:27] SPEAKER_02: but if we could get three, now we can do a full-time market. You see what I'm saying?
[36:33] SPEAKER_02: That could be more part-time for both. You know, so it's the same thing for books, like a very one
[36:39] SPEAKER_02: really, like, it's going to be overwhelmed. Then maybe we can hire a bookkeeper and they can do books.
[36:43] SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean? Like, so it's right. You got to be big in order to be able to scale, right?
[36:48] SPEAKER_01: Tell us like, tell us like, so do you ever have anybody, is the church is ready to go now? It's all
[36:56] SPEAKER_02: it's operational. No, no, no, gosh, no. We've got so much. We've got probably another six to eight
[37:04] SPEAKER_02: months. Like, you know, put it this way, the basement was like, had been finished,
[37:09] SPEAKER_02: paneling circa 1970s basement style, which was fine for a church basement. But it had all kinds of
[37:17] SPEAKER_02: stuff that, you know, they tried to fix over the years, right? And it wasn't enough to code for us to
[37:22] SPEAKER_02: use it because they're paneling. So we had, you know, eventually decided we're going to gut it. So
[37:33] SPEAKER_02: oh, this is a big project. I'm like, thanks to a reminder, you're right.
[37:37] SPEAKER_01: Yeah. The reason I asked that question is, is that I'm curious as to how you're, I mean,
[37:45] SPEAKER_01: in your market, you're very good at that. How are you going to breathe the, oh, this is really
[37:50] SPEAKER_01: wacky to me. It's a church because of all the statues and someone that were there to making people
[37:56] SPEAKER_01: feel comfortable that no, it's just a really cool, freaking building that was a church. Have you
[38:02] SPEAKER_02: thought about that? Yeah. So the one good thing I would say in terms of, so like, so people feel
[38:07] SPEAKER_02: welcome and don't feel necessarily isolated is that the stained glass is not, I'll call it overly
[38:13] SPEAKER_02: religious. It's actually pictures of saints just there. And then, obviously, there's Jesus and
[38:20] SPEAKER_02: there's, there's Mary, but they're considered like they're almost presented more like historical
[38:24] SPEAKER_02: figures as opposed to lots of messaging. The church, we were, we were, they were gracious, we,
[38:31] SPEAKER_02: we gave them back the cross that was on the top of the church. So, so, you know, it's, it's becoming
[38:36] SPEAKER_02: more of a, you know, less of a branded, you know, from the past, it's starting to, you will take on
[38:42] SPEAKER_02: its new brand, but it will have throwbacks to what was there before. So we're going to try to
[38:47] SPEAKER_02: respect the history, but at the same time in an, and appreciate it, this, because it's beautiful,
[38:53] SPEAKER_02: like these windows, these windows are incredible paintings. You would see in some European museum,
[38:58] SPEAKER_02: you know, so, appreciate that, but at the same time, also create, like, blend the new in there
[39:04] SPEAKER_02: at the same time, because the cool part is church really was about collecting the community.
[39:10] SPEAKER_02: Totally, this is still going to be able to collect the community. It's just going to be a climbing
[39:13] SPEAKER_01: community. Yeah, it's, so think about those days when David was younger, he was going to church,
[39:19] SPEAKER_01: you know, we're going to climb up all the walls and all the pews anyway. Now, you know,
[39:23] SPEAKER_01: those, at least for some of those kids that want to do that. Well, you know, a lot of, you know,
[39:28] SPEAKER_02: your parents might be like, rivers, did you go to church this Sunday? And now they can say you did.
[39:37] SPEAKER_01: I love it. So that doesn't stop there, my friend. You then went on and you brought back in,
[39:44] SPEAKER_01: what you're very good at, what you're mentoring, coaching, connecting, educating, whatever you
[39:49] SPEAKER_01: want to call it and create it. There's organizations called markets, well, I think it's, uh,
[39:53] SPEAKER_01: it's what it's called. Can you, we were kind of heading towards the end of our journey, of our
[39:59] SPEAKER_01: conversation. One, there's so many lessons that came off of this. The second one, sorry, the last one,
[40:04] SPEAKER_01: by the way, what we just talked about is take a look at that innovation with that building.
[40:08] SPEAKER_01: The ladies and gentlemen through challenge with something, just trying to look at things differently
[40:13] SPEAKER_01: like a church. I didn't want to ask you this. The insurance companies, you must have interesting
[40:19] SPEAKER_01: conversations with them as you build in your companies. Yeah, though, I will say that the good
[40:27] SPEAKER_02: news is I guess the area of the venture park business and the climbing business are both been
[40:32] SPEAKER_02: around for enough a lot of time to throw action packages. So you're not, you're not blazing
[40:36] SPEAKER_02: you trails. Though I will say insurance has gone way up. And I don't know if they're just using
[40:41] SPEAKER_02: a pandemic as an excuse or whatever it is, but yeah, it's gone like skyrocketed. And for no
[40:48] SPEAKER_02: reason, it's not like all of a sudden there's more incidents. They're just like, okay, we set
[40:52] SPEAKER_01: time to make up for some lost time, but yeah. You know, you know, you know, this time last
[40:59] SPEAKER_01: you gas 50 cents a liter and now it's $1.60 for whatever reason. Yeah, it's frustrating, but it's
[41:05] SPEAKER_01: an necessity to be the business. So we're back in markets. Well, can you can you talk about
[41:11] SPEAKER_01: we can talk about that need that you identified? I think it's always been there. I'm always
[41:16] SPEAKER_01: an advocate is that we really need to teach entrepreneurs more about selling and then getting
[41:21] SPEAKER_01: investors, not necessarily getting investors and then selling their products or services. And so
[41:27] SPEAKER_01: marketing is one of those boys in the marketplace that I think really can take advantage of the type
[41:34] SPEAKER_01: of organization in the markets. Well, let's look at you talk about that with that with the
[41:39] SPEAKER_01: pain point is that you're serving and what's a little bit of the background of that. Well, I think
[41:45] SPEAKER_02: you kind of you kind of touched on it there. Really, it's you know, often startups are started by
[41:51] SPEAKER_02: technology firms, right? So they they think of a way to solve a problem, which is fantastic.
[41:58] SPEAKER_02: But often the reason why a business survives is because it found it finds a way to reach
[42:04] SPEAKER_02: customers and solve problems. You know, to be and do it at scale. And often the two ways it does
[42:10] SPEAKER_02: that is yes, a pretty great product. But you have to find a way to reach them and have the right
[42:15] SPEAKER_02: strategies and that's marketing. And you have to be able to sell, which is a combination of
[42:19] SPEAKER_02: where marketing and sales kind of work together. And a lot of startup founders don't really have that
[42:24] SPEAKER_02: appreciation that say they went through an engineering degree or science degree. So right.
[42:28] SPEAKER_02: The end of the background doesn't mean how capable there's amazing capable engineers that can do
[42:32] SPEAKER_02: all that. It's just they don't have the background. Another issue is that, you know,
[42:39] SPEAKER_02: you took a did you take business to the digital business degree, right? Or farmers?
[42:42] SPEAKER_02: Yeah. So how can you remember your product minutes in course each?
[42:47] SPEAKER_01: Oh, I can't remember dick. Oh, I got a
[42:49] SPEAKER_01: I got a
[42:51] SPEAKER_01: hectic
[42:53] SPEAKER_01: It's
[42:53] SPEAKER_01: Just no, no, no.
[42:55] SPEAKER_01: Okay.
[42:56] SPEAKER_01: After my education.
[42:59] SPEAKER_02: Well, good at this way. I don't remember a lot of the courses. I do remember
[43:02] SPEAKER_02: the fact that there was no product management course.
[43:05] SPEAKER_01: You're okay.
[43:06] SPEAKER_02: Okay.
[43:07] SPEAKER_02: The first year there wasn't one.
[43:08] SPEAKER_01: I don't remember it either.
[43:10] SPEAKER_02: No, and there actually there was no sales course either because I don't know.
[43:12] SPEAKER_02: No, definitely not sales.
[43:14] SPEAKER_02: No, it's not a sale.
[43:15] SPEAKER_02: No, no, no.
[43:15] SPEAKER_02: They were marketing courses. They were advertising courses, but they weren't like product management courses.
[43:19] SPEAKER_02: They weren't sales courses. So
[43:21] SPEAKER_02: honestly marketing like a lot of marketing and it's a lot to cover grants a lot of ground to cover.
[43:27] SPEAKER_02: They don't quite like most of the startups around here are B2B startups. They're not B2C. B2C fans
[43:32] SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of B2C startups and business consumer startups
[43:36] SPEAKER_02: Down in like the Silicon Valley area you have to see a lot of like those like the social network companies and lots of stuff
[43:41] SPEAKER_02: But most of the companies that land in Canada are B2B when they
[43:44] SPEAKER_02: When they use the startups and you know marketing for B2B is almost like a hybrid between sales
[43:50] SPEAKER_02: Really like it's because it's based on relation. You know who you're dealing with. There's typically a short list
[43:54] SPEAKER_02: You know, it's B2B. It's not like millions of people. We're not them both thousands or hundreds
[43:59] SPEAKER_02: And literally it's relationship building. It's building mix. It's a totally different beast
[44:03] SPEAKER_02: And so number one there's a lack of
[44:05] SPEAKER_02: marketing talent leadership talent out there because it just
[44:09] SPEAKER_02: Hasn't been like that pipeline creating the university necessarily
[44:12] SPEAKER_02: Not a lot of B2B necessarily background stuff either and honestly just
[44:17] SPEAKER_02: You know, there's a startup communities going so fast. There's just like everyone's kind of stealing from everyone. You know what I mean that way?
[44:24] SPEAKER_02: so
[44:26] SPEAKER_02: The
[44:26] SPEAKER_02: The idea that you're going to be able to just continue to steal from one another is never going to solve the problem
[44:31] SPEAKER_02: And you're always going to be impeding the growth of startups
[44:35] SPEAKER_02: If you don't find a way to fill those roles and by the way, it is not a field of role after like
[44:41] SPEAKER_02: The third round of financing. Oh, yeah, I guess we need a marketer. Yeah, they should be there at the beginning
[44:46] SPEAKER_02: You should have the braininess stuff in we just had these lessons. We were talking about on this
[44:51] SPEAKER_02: so it's got to be baked in from the start and
[44:54] SPEAKER_02: The problem is there's just not enough talent. So it's not going to grow on trees literally
[44:58] SPEAKER_02: So you're going to have to grow it and so the concept of market swell was
[45:01] SPEAKER_02: Let's create an accelerator cohort program that
[45:05] SPEAKER_02: You can have your marketing leaders that you said this is the person I want they've got a ton of potential
[45:11] SPEAKER_02: But they literally need mentoring. They need to be accelerated in terms of
[45:15] SPEAKER_02: They're being able to think at an executive level or you know strategically or how it all fits together and you know
[45:21] SPEAKER_02: From product to building community to building demand to you name it like all across the board building culture of an organization
[45:28] SPEAKER_02: So
[45:30] SPEAKER_02: That's really where this the the knee came from and it was like okay. Well the crazy part was
[45:36] SPEAKER_02: Had I thought of this idea two years ago video calls like this didn't really exist. Yeah, I totally right
[45:42] SPEAKER_02: So a cohort would have been okay
[45:44] SPEAKER_02: People in cars. I got to go to a specific spot be sitting in the classroom blah blah blah
[45:49] SPEAKER_02: This time literally I only met one of my cohort physically only because she happened to come to Timbertop
[45:55] SPEAKER_02: And I went and saw her made a purpose of going to say hey, oh I already in the trees. I've never met anyone else
[46:00] SPEAKER_02: It's all been virtual
[46:02] SPEAKER_02: So you know people I the core members have been Halifax and in St. John and Frederikton and even down like in the new flan and down into
[46:11] SPEAKER_02: Denver like it's all over the place, but they all generally have they all have a land Canadian roots. They're all land Canadian based startups
[46:18] SPEAKER_02: And is that a purpose for you?
[46:21] SPEAKER_02: Well partly because I mean, I'm here. I know that community was easy
[46:26] SPEAKER_02: I knew the demand. I knew a lot of those CEOs or they would know me and they don't people that if they didn't know me
[46:31] SPEAKER_02: They don't know me so it's really kind of getting started and honestly
[46:35] SPEAKER_02: You know with this is the home team. I'd love to get started get the home team a bit of a boost right and get way of going
[46:41] SPEAKER_02: Um, but honestly, you know as a virtual thing if you can be from anywhere really so
[46:46] SPEAKER_02: Um, so it's really come standards like it's combination of almost like a ticket
[46:54] SPEAKER_02: MBA executive MBA smash it together with one-on-one coaching
[46:59] SPEAKER_02: smash it together with strategic consulting and smash it together with like a cohort like a world-of-waltz-preaching institute kind of cohort
[47:07] SPEAKER_02: Bring them all together and the idea is to I work I'm like a coach on the ice that works side-by-side
[47:14] SPEAKER_02: We have a list of things we want to cover off when B2B marketing
[47:17] SPEAKER_02: But I'm not going to force speed it. I'm not going to say this is the topic
[47:21] SPEAKER_02: For every week and we go through curriculum. I'm going to say what's the current what are the current problems you're dealing with right now
[47:26] SPEAKER_02: And let's use those as teaching moments
[47:29] SPEAKER_02: Bring in my experience bring in the structure we'll talk about it
[47:32] SPEAKER_02: We're together on those problems side-by-side and we'll resolve stuff and improve stuff in the business as we go as we're teaching
[47:40] SPEAKER_02: And then at the same time
[47:42] SPEAKER_02: We'll do like master classes and cover three topics a week as a cohort
[47:46] SPEAKER_02: So the core it starts to get to know each other and they're common things that each one of them want
[47:50] SPEAKER_02: so we'll kind of talk them on as a group and
[47:53] SPEAKER_02: And the idea is that at the end of it the cohort also has
[47:58] SPEAKER_02: um
[47:59] SPEAKER_02: All of these other members that they can start to communicate with and get support from and we build a bit of a community around marketing
[48:06] SPEAKER_02: And it's that's it's the great. They kind of all come together. They got to know each other and now
[48:12] SPEAKER_02: With the next cohort
[48:14] SPEAKER_02: Probably starting in January
[48:17] SPEAKER_02: Uh, they'll be kind of like the newcomers, but they'll kind of be also be access to the same cohort. So we'll build up this
[48:23] SPEAKER_02: Movement of knowledge and and support around building starts and accelerating
[48:29] SPEAKER_01: I'm around that around that conversation about marketing
[48:32] SPEAKER_01: So you've gone from startup
[48:34] SPEAKER_01: Cellar to that we do marketing that's our yeah, yeah
[48:39] SPEAKER_01: So I can really see that it's a it really is a representation of similar to the wall as became a cohort that that's happening
[48:47] SPEAKER_01: But again with that with that singular focus. How are you feeding
[48:51] SPEAKER_01: How are you feeding the your pipelines for
[48:54] SPEAKER_01: For markets wellers it just you just reaching out say this is what I'm doing the elements of the program
[49:00] SPEAKER_01: You have one of your team that want to play a role. It is a viral. How do you yeah?
[49:04] SPEAKER_02: It has mostly been I guess word of mouth and then articles covering it you know to mean like terms of
[49:10] SPEAKER_02: You know when we announced it last year already had like three
[49:14] SPEAKER_02: CEOs that kind of hardly came into they just kind of like I was talking to three different CEOs and all the same problem like okay
[49:21] SPEAKER_02: I can't go with like
[49:24] SPEAKER_02: Consult directly if I do it from one that I'm not helping the other one
[49:27] SPEAKER_02: So like how do I create a program so I can help them plus maybe or more people and you do it in a scalable way so
[49:33] SPEAKER_02: um
[49:34] SPEAKER_02: But then literally word of mouth got out I have got a you know, I've got a pipeline of a whole bunch of people that couldn't do it last year
[49:40] SPEAKER_02: But probably want to do it this year plus just other people hearing word of mouth and say hey
[49:45] SPEAKER_02: Can I be on the list you know all that kind of stuff so honestly?
[49:48] SPEAKER_02: In the next month or two I'm gonna have to reach out to those crew and say you know, what do you think?
[49:52] SPEAKER_02: Are you ready this year? Does it make sense? Have you found some people?
[49:55] SPEAKER_02: Want to be the program but they hadn't found their marketing leader yet, you know, so right? You know, so I think
[50:01] SPEAKER_02: If there's that what's interesting to there's there was also we're also exploring the concept right now and I know where it's gonna go but
[50:09] SPEAKER_02: There's a note organization that focus has been focusing more on sales and
[50:16] SPEAKER_02: Well, Chris yeah, Chris is doing fantastic stuff. He actually was one of our guest speakers. He's been doing great stuff with
[50:22] SPEAKER_02: D&D but sound different but
[50:25] SPEAKER_02: The idea may be creating another track a CRO track the chief revenue officer track
[50:31] SPEAKER_02: And maybe finding ways to scale it up even more because it's not just about marketing leaders
[50:36] SPEAKER_02: There's all kinds of marketers we need for startups. So yeah, and it can sell people that's so brilliant. I love it all around
[50:43] SPEAKER_01: Two questions left
[50:45] SPEAKER_01: You're only allowed to get one piece of advice on marketing and then
[50:49] SPEAKER_01: Someone's gonna tell you can't speak ever again. What's that point use of advice? But you would give oh
[50:56] SPEAKER_00: Let's talk
[50:58] SPEAKER_01: It's not a skill testing question
[51:02] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you're like I have only minutes here okay, so I would say that on the B2B side
[51:11] SPEAKER_02: It's about
[51:12] Speaker UNKNOWN: Um
[51:13] SPEAKER_02: Often it's about really spending time with customers
[51:18] SPEAKER_02: um and getting to know them
[51:21] SPEAKER_02: And anyone else in the industry that's passionate about that stuff. So finding your community
[51:26] SPEAKER_02: Correct learning about that community what is driving where they want to go and being part of that
[51:33] SPEAKER_02: And helping to accelerate like the vacuums of new kind of approaches of solving this and having to ensure your product can feel that vacuum
[51:40] SPEAKER_02: Like so it's really a demand gem kind of field but so many people do not
[51:45] SPEAKER_02: Especially on B2B do not think about the idea that you have to find your community globally
[51:50] SPEAKER_02: And if you do that everything just falls into place most startups they just ignore that and that's it's a big thing
[51:57] SPEAKER_01: It's a new to stick. I remember when I was working with OMB the
[52:01] SPEAKER_01: Oh, we brought the business model canvas in the play the right side customers the inside or the left side is engineering
[52:08] SPEAKER_01: And the amount of entrepreneurs that led with engineering will need to have these conversations or our customers
[52:14] SPEAKER_01: Blue by mind the way
[52:15] SPEAKER_01: And spending thousands of thousands of dollars without having a conversation with the customer
[52:21] SPEAKER_01: The last question is of course the people are leaning in and said man, I want to hang out with this dude
[52:27] SPEAKER_01: What's the best way to further than connect with is LinkedIn your go-to which uh, which the focus for connecting
[52:35] SPEAKER_02: Hanging out well that would be on a climbing wall
[52:38] SPEAKER_02: In a month
[52:40] SPEAKER_02: We're up in a tree up in a tree in about two months
[52:44] SPEAKER_02: They're literally hanging there with your gear and no
[52:47] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean
[52:50] SPEAKER_02: I guess reaching out if you want to connect on any one of these ideas
[52:54] SPEAKER_02: You know, you can easily find me a LinkedIn farming a message. It's usually the easiest way to get a hold of me
[53:01] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, so you know again collaborations
[53:04] SPEAKER_02: Interesting any of these types of things again, I you have to be thinking outside the box in order to try to accomplish all this stuff
[53:12] SPEAKER_02: So I'm always open to listening to potential other ideas of working with other people to solve things so
[53:17] SPEAKER_02: For sure, yeah
[53:20] SPEAKER_01: Well, you're brilliant dude and I feel like
[53:22] SPEAKER_01: Who is I to think that it was just gonna be 40 minutes?
[53:25] SPEAKER_01: I love that kind of a lot
[53:27] SPEAKER_01: Be kind and hanging out with me give me your time given the community time
[53:31] SPEAKER_01: Just keep on rocking I'm
[53:33] SPEAKER_01: I just
[53:34] SPEAKER_01: I have you in Atlanta Canada to let along in your project
[53:37] SPEAKER_01: So appreciate all you and Mary Glider doing to drive the spear of the bunch of ownership. So
[53:42] SPEAKER_01: Thanks
[53:42] SPEAKER_00: You know
[53:43] SPEAKER_00: All right, thanks rivers. See you later
[53:50] SPEAKER_00: Cheers. Yeah