The importance of control and influence to software entrepreneurs

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TRANSCRIPTION WITH SPEAKERS
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[00:00] SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Canada's podcast.
[00:05] SPEAKER_01: Dan, welcome to Canada's podcast. Great seeing you and you know we're not far away from each other in your
[00:14] SPEAKER_01: Enkitchen environment and Stony Creek. But you know why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and what you
[00:21] SPEAKER_01: Do just give give everyone that kind of three to five minute overview of who who dan is and what he's doing right now basically.
[00:28] SPEAKER_00: Certainly so first thank you very much for the invitation to this podcast. I really appreciate that Philip it's a pleasure chatting with you.
[00:36] SPEAKER_00: So who's Dan so I'm a computer guy software developer by training back starting back at university waterloo in the 80s and quickly got a taste in love for tech startups and eventually stop doing the regular wage slave kind of thing working for other companies and decided.
[00:54] SPEAKER_00: I kind of want to do my own thing and see if I can do things off the ground.
[01:00] SPEAKER_00: For many years I ran my own product companies alone wolf operations on my own software for mobile and doing contracting.
[01:09] SPEAKER_00: And then I guess around 10 years ago decided I want to get more serious about being involved and actually starting a real tech startup with employees.
[01:17] SPEAKER_00: So my last company that I was a partial founder in we sold five years ago or so and that really gave me the taste of taking a company from ground zero to raising money all the way to
[01:45] SPEAKER_00: investors and was connected with Chloe dozeberg or CEO and my business founder who was very interested in the idea of an application that would help organizations tell their unique stories but didn't have any developer connections as such.
[02:02] SPEAKER_00: And we talked more and I would have thought for a long time about building apps in the tourism space.
[02:09] SPEAKER_00: But I could never convince myself how to make that work is like well yeah I could build an app but why would anyone download that or buy it or use it.
[02:18] SPEAKER_00: And I loved her idea which is really to be focused about the content of the stories making us something that helps organizations, municipalities tell their stories.
[02:27] SPEAKER_00: And so often we went we started the company along with some investors and other founders and we launched our first product for iOS about a year after we launched nine months after we launched.
[02:43] SPEAKER_00: Followed quickly with Android and I've been building the product line ever since and getting sales from coast to coast.
[02:49] SPEAKER_02: That's great.
[02:54] SPEAKER_02: So you work for a while you know.
[03:01] SPEAKER_01: And then you chose entrepreneurship do you think entrepreneurs have to be wired different.
[03:06] SPEAKER_01: Or we just a ADHD or something like that.
[03:10] SPEAKER_00: Absolutely wired different.
[03:14] SPEAKER_00: So first myself and it's just me you know I'm not a big company guy you know you get into companies that are you know over 500 people.
[03:24] SPEAKER_00: I just don't feel I can have the influence I think I think entrepreneurs.
[03:29] SPEAKER_00: Particularly software entrepreneurs they want to be able to have a great amount of control and influence in what they do.
[03:34] SPEAKER_00: And the larger the company the harder that can be for some types of people maybe not the NBA types but for software engineers in particular.
[03:41] SPEAKER_00: I think it's a challenge to be able to have their say and be able to have a voice.
[03:45] SPEAKER_00: And so they gravitate there.
[03:47] SPEAKER_00: So if you're just type who just absolutely loves tech and wants to help build technology.
[03:54] SPEAKER_00: You kind of gravitate this way.
[03:57] SPEAKER_00: It certainly was true for me it meant you know I know I can I'm in control of the hard work I do.
[04:03] SPEAKER_00: If I put that super hard effort in that the successor failure is dependent on me.
[04:09] SPEAKER_00: As opposed to a very large company where you're just a cog in a machine.
[04:16] SPEAKER_00: And although it's a hard ride a lot of work and not necessarily better money.
[04:21] SPEAKER_00: I certainly would say that if one wanted to work for one of the larger established companies especially these days here in Kitchener the US companies you can probably make more money in the long run.
[04:30] SPEAKER_00: But there are more important things in life and to be able to stay.
[04:35] SPEAKER_00: I started a company from ground zero.
[04:39] SPEAKER_00: And made a product that users like and that customers buy.
[04:43] SPEAKER_00: That's worth everything in my mind. There's nothing more valuable to me.
[04:48] SPEAKER_00: So yeah, entrepreneurs are wired differently almost everyone that I work with you've built companies together and we talk a lot.
[04:56] SPEAKER_00: They're different.
[04:59] SPEAKER_02: It's interesting.
[05:00] SPEAKER_01: You know, you work in Waterloo which is which is a tech hub anyway.
[05:06] SPEAKER_01: But you know why why stay in Ontario.
[05:10] SPEAKER_01: You know when there's I mean you know I'm sure you've been headhunted here there and everywhere.
[05:16] SPEAKER_01: I mean why stay here.
[05:18] SPEAKER_01: I mean it's so many other places where you can get more money.
[05:23] SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
[05:24] SPEAKER_01: Why stay here.
[05:25] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's a great question.
[05:28] SPEAKER_00: In fact, the I had to encounter that question literally for when I graduated from UW in the 80s.
[05:35] SPEAKER_00: Because a lot of my friends went to Microsoft at that time.
[05:39] SPEAKER_00: You know if you were going to go in the US and you know talking about 89 85 area.
[05:45] SPEAKER_01: They're not clients.
[05:46] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[05:48] SPEAKER_00: Indeed.
[05:49] SPEAKER_00: A couple of my friends you know went there.
[05:51] SPEAKER_00: I made that decision at the time is like I don't want to go to the US.
[05:55] SPEAKER_00: There was no Silicon Valley at that time yet.
[05:58] SPEAKER_00: But it was clear there was some unique opportunities even though I really admired and respected what the company was building at that time.
[06:06] SPEAKER_00: I still made that decision.
[06:08] SPEAKER_00: No.
[06:09] SPEAKER_00: So for myself, it'll be different for everyone else.
[06:12] SPEAKER_00: But at that time the major factor was I'm a Canadian.
[06:15] SPEAKER_00: And I'm proud to be Canadian and I want to build a I want to do what I do here in Canada for Canada.
[06:19] SPEAKER_00: I really didn't like the idea of going to a different country, particularly the US to be honest.
[06:27] SPEAKER_00: And giving my heart and soul and talent in another space.
[06:31] SPEAKER_00: I know my friends did very well and and they enjoyed their experiences.
[06:37] SPEAKER_00: And but they're not very you know they don't feel necessarily the same sense of connection.
[06:41] SPEAKER_00: And so it didn't matter to them where they worked.
[06:44] SPEAKER_00: That was how I felt back then.
[06:47] SPEAKER_00: I still feel very much like I do not want to leave.
[06:50] SPEAKER_00: But for a variety of different reasons.
[06:54] SPEAKER_00: One of them and this is in the ethos of having built just a dresscape in the Chloe and I were very firm about this.
[07:01] SPEAKER_00: There is an ethos in the valley of a lot of those companies that's burning sure.
[07:05] SPEAKER_00: I find that it's persistent and it's evolved over the last 20, 30 years.
[07:09] SPEAKER_00: The work culture especially in the high pain, you know, more technical startups.
[07:17] SPEAKER_00: You can end up working too hard and it's kind of rough on people.
[07:21] SPEAKER_00: And I find that having gone through it over the years, I don't like that culture.
[07:26] SPEAKER_00: And I feel here in Canada, or at least an Ontario or at least for this company, we were able to build a different culture where I don't want people to burn out.
[07:35] SPEAKER_00: My company, I can say that.
[07:37] SPEAKER_00: It's like I might work really hard and I do, but I didn't want to feel my employees had to.
[07:43] SPEAKER_00: And so I think I can build the kind of culture better here in Canada, because we have a greater respect for quality of life and work balance.
[07:50] SPEAKER_00: Then possibly what I've experienced in seeing in the US.
[07:54] SPEAKER_00: The flip side of this though is there is a great price to pay building a startup.
[08:01] SPEAKER_00: The ability to accept risk into finance companies properly is a magnitude greater in the US.
[08:08] SPEAKER_00: Constantly in Canada when you're trying to build a company, if you don't take money from the US,
[08:13] SPEAKER_00: eight, you're going to get less money and have a much more conservative investor base and conservative point of view.
[08:20] SPEAKER_00: That is a challenge in its frustration.
[08:22] SPEAKER_00: And to be honest, I'm far more open minded about where I will take money in this company at this point.
[08:28] SPEAKER_00: It's just I'm just seen a total different attitude when I talk to VCs and related companies where more from California and order on many steps.
[08:42] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
[08:43] SPEAKER_01: So, you know, let's talk a little bit more about your business today.
[08:50] SPEAKER_01: What are you most excited about in your current business?
[08:58] SPEAKER_03: I think for me personally, if you're asking what I'm excited about for me,
[09:04] SPEAKER_00: I think what gets me up in the morning and really excited is thinking to look the growth of the company.
[09:08] SPEAKER_00: And I guess it's because I'm wired for operations.
[09:12] SPEAKER_00: You know, I've chose the title of COO in this company.
[09:17] SPEAKER_00: Because I love seeing a company follow the steps to success.
[09:22] SPEAKER_00: It's a being on that path.
[09:24] SPEAKER_00: So it makes me more excited when a customer buys our product than when I build a piece of technology for the product.
[09:31] SPEAKER_00: I do both.
[09:32] SPEAKER_00: I still write code and I love writing code still.
[09:35] SPEAKER_00: I have to.
[09:35] SPEAKER_01: I don't do that anymore.
[09:38] SPEAKER_00: I wish I could completely abandon it, but I can't because again,
[09:43] SPEAKER_00: Canadian climate investment, not enough money.
[09:45] SPEAKER_00: I kind of have to wear more hats than I would like.
[09:49] SPEAKER_00: But for me, when I know I built something that users and customers actually, you know,
[09:56] SPEAKER_00: put the money on the tables, I've speak in a customer's sake, literally,
[09:59] SPEAKER_00: in a users of our product sase in the sense that they've you downloaded,
[10:03] SPEAKER_00: used the product and retained it and enjoy it.
[10:05] SPEAKER_00: Or we get a good review.
[10:07] SPEAKER_00: To me, it's that process of we have a vision.
[10:11] SPEAKER_00: We're going to build it.
[10:12] SPEAKER_00: And then we're going to put it to market, test it, probably fail, refine it, try again, tune, test.
[10:19] SPEAKER_00: But ultimately build something that people buy.
[10:21] SPEAKER_00: That is everything for me.
[10:23] SPEAKER_00: It's I so exciting.
[10:26] SPEAKER_00: Not every engineer is like that.
[10:28] SPEAKER_00: Some engineers get more kick out of just building the technology and they really don't care
[10:32] SPEAKER_00: whether anyone uses it.
[10:34] SPEAKER_00: It's more about, well, this was elegant code, more just a neat idea.
[10:39] SPEAKER_00: That does nothing for me.
[10:41] SPEAKER_00: And this was probably instilled in the very early, my career, my very first employers
[10:47] SPEAKER_00: that were very, very pragmatic and operational in my early mentors,
[10:52] SPEAKER_00: some of which are some of my investors now, who really believed in that,
[10:57] SPEAKER_00: that ethos of build a product to sell, build something you can actually make money.
[11:03] SPEAKER_01: So what's the greatest challenge you've faced in your business today?
[11:08] SPEAKER_01: And how did you, how did you overcome it?
[11:12] SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
[11:13] SPEAKER_00: The greatest challenge.
[11:15] SPEAKER_00: I would probably say it's, and it's not necessarily one we've overcome yet, to be honest.
[11:22] SPEAKER_00: We're still working on it.
[11:25] SPEAKER_00: Nyevli when we built the very first risk, I launched it in the App Store.
[11:29] SPEAKER_00: I mean, realize, of course, we're not a social mini platform.
[11:32] SPEAKER_00: We don't monetize eyeballs.
[11:33] SPEAKER_00: It's a truly a free experience for users.
[11:35] SPEAKER_00: No ads.
[11:35] SPEAKER_00: Never will be.
[11:37] SPEAKER_00: That's because it's SaaS paid for by our customers.
[11:40] SPEAKER_00: So we naively thought, great.
[11:43] SPEAKER_00: If we build it and it's free and it's ad free and it's clean,
[11:46] SPEAKER_00: and it really has amazing eclectic unique content or stories from our partners
[11:51] SPEAKER_00: and customers and organizations that's unique telling things they couldn't find otherwise.
[11:55] SPEAKER_00: Of course users will download it.
[11:58] SPEAKER_00: We'll have, you know, 300,000 downloads in the first, first year,
[12:02] SPEAKER_00: and hit a million users and 10.
[12:04] SPEAKER_00: Well, that didn't turn out to be true.
[12:08] SPEAKER_00: And I'll admit, I was very naive about that.
[12:10] SPEAKER_00: I really thought it won't be that hard to get adoption, even viral adoption.
[12:17] SPEAKER_00: That's just not the way of the mobile app world.
[12:20] SPEAKER_00: It's, there's just more mobile apps than people.
[12:23] SPEAKER_00: It seems these days.
[12:25] SPEAKER_00: It's hard to get attention.
[12:27] SPEAKER_00: And in a company that has raised a modest amount of money in my opinion for this amount of time,
[12:32] SPEAKER_00: we can't really afford to market it.
[12:34] SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm not going to buy TV commercial slots.
[12:37] SPEAKER_00: We also, not only thought great, you know, we'll get customers to pay for it,
[12:41] SPEAKER_00: the put published content, and it will be a cycle.
[12:44] SPEAKER_00: You know, the more content, the more partners, the more customers, great, more users.
[12:48] SPEAKER_00: That is true, but only on a linear basis, not an exponential basis we have found.
[12:54] SPEAKER_00: And so we are still hunting for the perfect features to add to our product line
[13:01] SPEAKER_00: that will cause viral user adoption.
[13:06] SPEAKER_00: It's, we have good downloads.
[13:08] SPEAKER_00: Don't get me wrong.
[13:09] SPEAKER_00: I'm very happy with it.
[13:10] SPEAKER_00: We have very active users.
[13:12] SPEAKER_00: We've had top-creator servers many, many times.
[13:16] SPEAKER_00: But they didn't hit the goals that I, the high goals I had set for myself when we started the company.
[13:21] SPEAKER_00: I really thought we'd have many millions of users by now.
[13:25] SPEAKER_00: And I know it's set the fact that the challenge and the one that we're still working on every day,
[13:31] SPEAKER_00: is adding more and more features that users will find more and more sticky and want to use every day.
[13:38] SPEAKER_00: And the cool thing is, is with this platform we have, because we have a CMS,
[13:41] SPEAKER_00: we have customers with unique content, rich content, valuable content,
[13:45] SPEAKER_00: unique CMS that they can use to enter it, and we have a platform that's easy and free for users and so on.
[13:51] SPEAKER_00: All the ingredients are there on this framework to do stuff that will cause adoption.
[13:56] SPEAKER_00: We have ideas that were very excited about coming to all months, that we think will really be something that's more than just a user saying,
[14:06] SPEAKER_00: well, this is a cool app. I'll try it once or twice, but do much more than that.
[14:09] SPEAKER_01: But let's move on to some things that are kind of interesting.
[14:13] SPEAKER_01: I love this one question. I ask everyone.
[14:16] SPEAKER_01: And it's really about mentorship, you know.
[14:19] SPEAKER_01: And I think most of us have had mentors in our business line.
[14:25] SPEAKER_01: And I think that's the best piece of advice that you've received.
[14:29] SPEAKER_01: You know, the one that you carry around, it never, it never goes away.
[14:33] SPEAKER_02: You keep coming back to that kind of.
[14:41] SPEAKER_02: That's a great question.
[14:50] SPEAKER_02: I remember once,
[14:53] SPEAKER_00: back when I still was doing regular jobs and thinking that it was important to simply change my title and keep climbing a ladder, which I did in my youth.
[15:02] SPEAKER_00: And thought, well, great, you know, now I'm working for a bigger company, making more money, managing more people.
[15:08] SPEAKER_00: And I remember being very frustrated at times in that last wage position like that in a large company.
[15:17] SPEAKER_00: And I was getting more frustrated, not being able to have control over the environment, the politics, of course.
[15:25] SPEAKER_03: And I remember talking to one of my mentors that I really trusted and respected.
[15:34] SPEAKER_03: And we were just chatty.
[15:37] SPEAKER_00: And they commented, Dan, you don't seem happy.
[15:42] SPEAKER_00: And I was like, I'm not, I'm frustrated, but I didn't see the problem, you know.
[15:47] SPEAKER_00: For me, it was like, well, this is what I do.
[15:49] SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm good at this.
[15:50] SPEAKER_00: I can manage larger, larger teams.
[15:52] SPEAKER_00: I can do these jobs.
[15:53] SPEAKER_00: But what they pointed out to me was, but you're not happy.
[15:59] SPEAKER_00: Why are you doing it? If you're not happy.
[16:03] SPEAKER_00: And I synthesized that into a discretion I use the only currency in life that's really worth any value is happiness.
[16:11] SPEAKER_00: There is no other currency.
[16:13] SPEAKER_00: Your, your, your wage is important to a certain degree. Maybe when you're younger, but certainly this age, it's the least important element to me.
[16:24] SPEAKER_00: And after that chat, it was only about a month or so later I quit and started doing my own thing.
[16:32] SPEAKER_00: So there is only one currency that matters and tapiness and people need it.
[16:36] SPEAKER_00: It's not easy to stay on that path.
[16:38] SPEAKER_00: It sounds like kindergarten advice, but it's not easy.
[16:40] SPEAKER_00: We often do things that don't make us happy.
[16:44] SPEAKER_01: So that's really interesting.
[16:46] SPEAKER_01: And the sense of what I'm going to ask you now is kind of similar to it.
[16:51] SPEAKER_01: You know, if you could go back in time, say 20 years ago, what advice would you give yourself?
[16:59] SPEAKER_03: 20 years.
[17:01] SPEAKER_03: Well, 20 years, I'd start doing my own thing.
[17:05] SPEAKER_00: I think what I would tell myself 20 years ago.
[17:10] SPEAKER_00: I had a lot of scars, I, in a sense, from working from bigger, bigger companies.
[17:14] SPEAKER_00: And so I became very allergic to the idea.
[17:17] SPEAKER_00: And for a long time, all I wanted to do was a loan wealth business.
[17:23] SPEAKER_00: And that was a mistake.
[17:25] SPEAKER_00: I should have made the transition earlier to true entrepreneurship.
[17:30] SPEAKER_00: Well, on wealth is fine.
[17:31] SPEAKER_00: You can build a consultancy.
[17:32] SPEAKER_00: You can build a tiny little app or two yourself.
[17:34] SPEAKER_00: But if you don't really raise money and get serious and try to build a real company,
[17:40] SPEAKER_00: you're not going to achieve much.
[17:41] SPEAKER_00: You're going to stay small and you're not going to do much.
[17:44] SPEAKER_00: I wish 20 years ago, I could go back and say, don't be so afraid.
[17:49] SPEAKER_00: Don't live in that developer cave.
[17:52] SPEAKER_00: Get out of the cave and be willing to take a risk and actually do it.
[17:56] SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm positive if I had started a little bit earlier, trying to build a larger company,
[18:01] SPEAKER_00: raise money, do the right thing to build a true larger vision and plan I could have.
[18:07] SPEAKER_00: And I didn't.
[18:09] SPEAKER_00: So if I can go back 20 years, I kicked myself and say, don't be so afraid.
[18:14] SPEAKER_00: I mean, it was fine.
[18:15] SPEAKER_00: It was fun doing what I did.
[18:17] SPEAKER_00: But I'm happier now because I'm achieving more that has a real impact in the world.
[18:24] SPEAKER_01: Okay. That's some good, good thoughts there.
[18:28] SPEAKER_01: Let's move on to some, you know, slightly more, slightly lighter stuff.
[18:35] SPEAKER_01: Okay.
[18:36] SPEAKER_01: Even more than a night person.
[18:41] SPEAKER_03: Well, I'm both.
[18:43] SPEAKER_00: I work is important to me, you know, my children are growing up out of the house.
[18:50] SPEAKER_00: I love what I do.
[18:52] SPEAKER_00: So what I tend to do is I will get up at a reasonable hour.
[18:57] SPEAKER_00: Sometimes very early.
[18:59] SPEAKER_00: I support and so on.
[19:01] SPEAKER_00: Stay physically active.
[19:03] SPEAKER_00: And then I'll run the company. I'll do the hat, which is the CO hat.
[19:06] SPEAKER_00: And that's easily three quarters of my day to half of my day.
[19:10] SPEAKER_00: And then what I often do is in the evenings or on the weekends, I'll code.
[19:14] SPEAKER_00: And that's when I can be non interrupted because coding requires non-interruption.
[19:21] SPEAKER_00: So I'm a little bit of each to be honest.
[19:24] SPEAKER_00: I don't, I can do either.
[19:26] SPEAKER_00: When I burn it, the candle both ends too much.
[19:28] SPEAKER_00: Then I often will just take a big break.
[19:30] SPEAKER_00: I'll sleep in like crazy, not work a day or something like that.
[19:34] SPEAKER_00: But I love being able to just work when I want to work, whatever that is.
[19:39] SPEAKER_00: And of course, our company is, we built it on a foundation of 100% remote.
[19:43] SPEAKER_00: We do have offices.
[19:44] SPEAKER_00: But there are only work share offices for addresses, one in Toronto, one in one.
[19:48] SPEAKER_00: That was fundamental.
[19:51] SPEAKER_00: All my employees work from home.
[19:53] SPEAKER_00: They love it.
[19:53] SPEAKER_00: I want to give them all that same freedom that I respect to bill.
[19:57] SPEAKER_01: If you had to pick one word to describe yourself, what would that word be?
[20:04] SPEAKER_01: It can be two words.
[20:06] SPEAKER_01: What would it be and why?
[20:10] SPEAKER_00: I once had a colleague describe me as a bulldog.
[20:15] SPEAKER_00: And I always thought that stuck.
[20:17] SPEAKER_00: I thought it was hilarious.
[20:18] SPEAKER_00: And the reason I particularly use that word one day, we were working on a very particular
[20:22] SPEAKER_00: challenging problem.
[20:24] SPEAKER_00: Basically, everyone had given up on it.
[20:26] SPEAKER_00: Well, they can't be solved.
[20:28] SPEAKER_00: And I said, I just refused to give up.
[20:31] SPEAKER_00: And it wasn't a huge problem.
[20:33] SPEAKER_00: It was a one day problem.
[20:34] Speaker UNKNOWN: 
[20:34] SPEAKER_00: But I eventually did come up with a solution to the problem.
[20:38] SPEAKER_00: And he just kind of shook his head at the end of it is like, and you're a bulldog.
[20:42] SPEAKER_00: And I don't give up.
[20:45] SPEAKER_00: I, you have to be able to as an entrepreneur to see through the dark times.
[20:50] SPEAKER_00: 90% of the time, you can't actually see the end of the road in front of you.
[20:55] SPEAKER_00: The fog is too great.
[20:56] SPEAKER_00: That is the nature of running a tech startup.
[20:58] SPEAKER_00: There will be days you don't know where the next paycheck is getting paid from.
[21:01] SPEAKER_00: There will be days you don't know what the right feature to build.
[21:04] SPEAKER_00: There will be days you don't know, oh my god, you know, are we ever going to get this done.
[21:09] SPEAKER_00: You have to be dogmatic.
[21:12] SPEAKER_00: And I'm very proud of the fact that some people view me as a don't give up bulldog.
[21:17] SPEAKER_00: It's not necessarily optimism.
[21:19] SPEAKER_00: That is a different trade.
[21:21] SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't necessarily describe myself as a great optimist.
[21:25] SPEAKER_00: It's just I don't give up.
[21:26] SPEAKER_00: I don't like the idea of failing.
[21:28] SPEAKER_00: Often that just means pivoting all the time.
[21:31] SPEAKER_00: It might be that.
[21:33] SPEAKER_00: Okay, you don't actually succeed on today's goals or where you go.
[21:36] SPEAKER_00: You just find that when you look back, it's like, wow, we really changed our mind about what's the right path and be willing to do that at all times.
[21:43] SPEAKER_01: Let me sort of say, you know, what's keeping you up at night these days.
[21:50] SPEAKER_00: These days currently I probably say the thing that worries me is employee retention because we're in such a crazy time.
[21:58] SPEAKER_00: I'm on unemployment rates are so low and people can just take a job any time.
[22:03] SPEAKER_00: That's complicated in the tech field in that I can't possibly afford to pay the same rates as the large monolithic companies here in town like the Googles of the world.
[22:13] SPEAKER_00: Very few tech startups can really compete at a day one with those kind of advantages and salaries.
[22:20] SPEAKER_00: So that's worryin some.
[22:23] SPEAKER_00: For me, I start every day as a founder and as an operating person, saying, just assume all your best people are going to quit on you today.
[22:32] SPEAKER_00: So what can you do to help keep them there and keep them happy?
[22:35] SPEAKER_00: I literally ask my employees every week, are you happy?
[22:38] SPEAKER_00: And it's surprising that money is very rarely the factor that actually is the highest motivator for you know, it's a factor.
[22:45] SPEAKER_00: But I often tell you things like well, you know, I'd like this or I'd like that.
[22:51] SPEAKER_00: Usually I was more into autonomy and self direction, which are very easy to provide if you're a good manager, you know, let great people do great things for you.
[23:00] SPEAKER_00: So that's probably the most current thing that's a bit concerning other than cash flow, which as you pointed out is universal in everything.
[23:10] SPEAKER_00: So I will not bore people with that standard answer.
[23:14] SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm looking at our time and I think we could chat for quite some time longer, but I've got to keep to my 25 to 30 minutes.
[23:21] SPEAKER_01: And it's been really, really interesting down how can people get a hold of your online?
[23:26] SPEAKER_01: What's the best way to do it? It's got some questions.
[23:29] SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's a great question.
[23:32] SPEAKER_00: Probably through our website and email. So dresscape.com, DRIFTSCAPE.com is our company.
[23:43] SPEAKER_00: There's just contact us at high at dresscape.com.
[23:50] SPEAKER_00: And I'll end up getting that.
[23:52] SPEAKER_00: And that would probably be the best way.
[23:55] SPEAKER_00: I'm not active on social media at all.
[23:58] SPEAKER_00: I know that sounds very strange for a tech dude like me, but I'm not fond of monetizing eyeballs at all.
[24:05] SPEAKER_00: I hate it so much that I refuse to participate in those those environments.
[24:10] SPEAKER_00: So email is it.
[24:12] SPEAKER_00: If someone wants to reach me and talk more, and then really, of course, that I reply and, you know,
[24:17] SPEAKER_00: give him a call.
[24:19] SPEAKER_00: So through our website, I think is probably the best way.
[24:24] SPEAKER_01: That's been great meeting you.
[24:26] SPEAKER_01: I'm coming on campus podcast.
[24:27] SPEAKER_01: I think there's some real words of wisdom in there that we got through today.
[24:31] SPEAKER_01: So thank you very much. Great meeting you.
[24:34] SPEAKER_00: Wonderful meeting you. Thank you so much for your time.