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TRANSCRIPTION WITH SPEAKERS
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[00:00] SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Canada's Podcast.
[00:05] SPEAKER_01: Hello, I'm Mario Toneguzi, managing editor of Canada's Podcast.
[00:09] SPEAKER_01: Joining me today on Edmonton's Podcast is Maria DeBroon, who is an author and CEO of Emerge
[00:17] SPEAKER_01: Solutions.
[00:18] SPEAKER_01: Thanks for joining us today, Maria.
[00:20] SPEAKER_02: Thanks, Mario, really happy to be here.
[00:22] SPEAKER_01: All right, let's talk about a new book that you have authored.
[00:29] SPEAKER_01: And it's titled, Understood, the Greatest Human Need and the Key to Engagement.
[00:35] SPEAKER_01: Let's talk, first of all, a little bit about what's the book all about, first of all, Maria.
[00:40] SPEAKER_02: So the book is about how we can actually advance our engagement efforts in organizations,
[00:48] SPEAKER_02: where we've seen a steady decline of engagement in organizations.
[00:54] SPEAKER_02: My work focused on how to help boost those engagement numbers through my firm and
[01:00] SPEAKER_02: Emerge Solutions.
[01:01] SPEAKER_02: And as I was doing the work, I noticed that there was this kind of one thing that seemed
[01:06] SPEAKER_02: to really support people and becoming more engaged.
[01:10] SPEAKER_02: And that was this feeling of being understood.
[01:14] SPEAKER_02: And so I started to get super curious about what that looked like, what some of the
[01:19] SPEAKER_02: science was behind that and what was the relationship between feeling understood and
[01:25] SPEAKER_02: being engaged.
[01:28] SPEAKER_01: Now, maybe if we backtrack for a second, how do you find what engagement is?
[01:35] SPEAKER_01: What is it?
[01:36] SPEAKER_02: So engagement, if we look at kind of all the research and just if we just think about
[01:41] SPEAKER_02: what it's like for us to be at work, a lot of it has to do with our social and emotional
[01:47] SPEAKER_02: connection to our work, our teams and our organization.
[01:52] SPEAKER_02: So how strong that connection is for us?
[01:58] SPEAKER_01: And how would you describe the state of employing engagement these days?
[02:05] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, unfortunately, it isn't all that great.
[02:10] SPEAKER_02: As I said, there's been a bit of a decline last year.
[02:13] SPEAKER_02: We actually saw another dip.
[02:15] SPEAKER_02: But for the most part, if we look at the statistics, Gallup does a state of workplace engagement.
[02:24] SPEAKER_02: Last year, they found that in the Canada US, 33% of people that show up at work are engaged.
[02:31] SPEAKER_02: So that's basically less than one in three people.
[02:34] SPEAKER_02: So that means people are coming in.
[02:37] SPEAKER_02: They're not connected.
[02:39] SPEAKER_02: They're showing up.
[02:40] SPEAKER_02: They're doing their basic work and then they're doing no more than that.
[02:45] SPEAKER_02: And some of them are, yeah, some of them are actually actively disengaged too, which is
[02:51] SPEAKER_02: kind of a dangerous spot to be in because actively disengaged as they're not.
[02:56] SPEAKER_02: They're actually vocally expressing their unhappiness or contention in the organization.
[03:00] SPEAKER_01: Okay.
[03:02] SPEAKER_01: Let me, why is this important engagement?
[03:06] SPEAKER_01: And what is the, the dominoe, the fact that guests of a company that does not have engaged employees?
[03:16] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so this one, it's kind of a challenging question to answer because we don't, as organizations,
[03:23] SPEAKER_02: we have a tendency not to measure what, what the financial implications would be for
[03:30] SPEAKER_02: having a disengaged employee.
[03:33] SPEAKER_02: There are a few statistics that are out there.
[03:35] SPEAKER_02: So if we look from the financial lens first, one of the things that Gallup also found
[03:41] SPEAKER_02: in their research was that disengagement costs the US and Canada businesses about $350
[03:48] SPEAKER_02: billion a year and lost productivity.
[03:52] SPEAKER_02: That's across all industry.
[03:54] SPEAKER_02: Queen's University, they have a center for business venturing, which talks about more about
[03:58] SPEAKER_02: small business and entrepreneurs.
[04:00] SPEAKER_02: And they've indicated that it's in the neighborhood about $10,000 in employee and that
[04:06] SPEAKER_02: cost to the organization per employee is turnover costs, low productivity and absenteeism.
[04:15] SPEAKER_02: So typically we will see low engaged engagement result in teams aren't working well together.
[04:21] SPEAKER_02: We're not getting what we need out of them.
[04:23] SPEAKER_02: We don't get the progress that we're hoping.
[04:27] SPEAKER_02: There's lower profits potentially.
[04:30] SPEAKER_02: So all of these things combined.
[04:31] SPEAKER_02: But then if we shift over to kind of the, away from the financial cost again to the
[04:36] SPEAKER_02: emotional tool it takes, we're actually seeing that people are, you know, not, as I said,
[04:42] SPEAKER_02: not connected and that their relationships at work just aren't working.
[04:45] SPEAKER_02: And so we're seeing more silos.
[04:47] SPEAKER_02: It takes longer to get things done.
[04:49] SPEAKER_02: And then on a personal level, people actually don't, they feel frustrated by their experience
[04:55] SPEAKER_02: at work.
[04:55] SPEAKER_02: There's some anxiety.
[04:58] SPEAKER_02: They feel stressed because they can't get someone to work with them very well and they
[05:02] SPEAKER_02: can't, that means that their work is impacted.
[05:05] SPEAKER_02: So we just see this kind of negativity start to happen both individually and then potentially
[05:12] SPEAKER_02: around team cohesion and our overall well being.
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[05:25] SPEAKER_01: So how does the company go about changing when they have an environment and a culture like
[05:33] SPEAKER_01: that?
[05:34] SPEAKER_01: How does the company go about changing it?
[05:36] SPEAKER_02: I think one of the things that is the most valuable is if we think about engagement as
[05:42] SPEAKER_02: a social and emotional connection to our work and the people that we're with, one of the
[05:47] SPEAKER_02: biggest indicators or influences on people's engagement is actually their relationship with
[05:53] SPEAKER_02: their leader.
[05:55] SPEAKER_02: And so statistically they say that 70% of the variance in how engaged someone is has to
[06:02] SPEAKER_02: do directly with how they're experiencing their leader.
[06:05] SPEAKER_02: So I think there's just an opportunity in our organizations to actually look at how
[06:10] SPEAKER_02: we are leading and talk about what it means to be a leader in our organizations and beyond
[06:17] SPEAKER_02: getting the work done, what does it take to actually help people succeed?
[06:22] SPEAKER_02: And I think one of the places that we can start is just developing this shared understanding.
[06:28] SPEAKER_02: So how can we create some shared understanding between us and the people that we're working
[06:34] SPEAKER_02: with amongst our teams and just see what sort of environment we can create for them that
[06:39] SPEAKER_02: would actually foster understanding.
[06:41] SPEAKER_02: And there's this really strong relationship in the research about when we feel understood,
[06:46] SPEAKER_02: it exhibits a lot of the characteristics of what an engaged employee looks like.
[06:51] SPEAKER_02: You think that there's just this huge opportunity to look at this element of feeling understood
[06:57] SPEAKER_02: and understanding in our organizations to help us foster those relationships and help
[07:02] SPEAKER_02: strengthen those social and emotional connections.
[07:06] SPEAKER_01: Is it the bigger the company, is it the tougher to engage in employees?
[07:15] SPEAKER_01: I mean, I imagine a small architecture firm, you know, in downtown Edmonton, could
[07:21] SPEAKER_01: probably have more engaged employees than a company that has 100 employees.
[07:29] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think definitely, but I think some of the things that we're even seeing in those
[07:33] SPEAKER_02: smaller organizations is we're needing to change more rapidly.
[07:38] SPEAKER_02: So we're faced with change more often in our organizations, which can cause some stress
[07:43] SPEAKER_02: and anxiety for people.
[07:46] SPEAKER_02: The way that we're working has shifted dramatically in the last four to five years with our hybrid
[07:50] SPEAKER_02: and remote models.
[07:52] SPEAKER_02: So how people are relating to each other and working in those types of models.
[07:57] SPEAKER_02: And then just the experiences that we're having with our client expectations.
[08:03] SPEAKER_02: But really, like, even if you're a smaller firm, there are some of these external factors
[08:08] SPEAKER_02: that influence what people's experiences at work.
[08:12] SPEAKER_01: Now, okay, I brought up a really interesting topic, right?
[08:16] SPEAKER_01: And I wanted to talk about this, the hybrid and remote work thing.
[08:22] SPEAKER_01: I guess it's, how do you look at this?
[08:25] Speaker UNKNOWN:
[08:26] SPEAKER_01: So you look at the remote work model and yeah, employees going to be happy because he,
[08:33] SPEAKER_01: you know, he wants that, right?
[08:35] SPEAKER_01: Yet, they're away from that and they're not engaged with the company and with others, right?
[08:41] SPEAKER_01: So what impact does this remote thing have and has and what the companies need to do
[08:50] SPEAKER_01: to, I don't know, maybe facilitate that that can actually lead to better engagement?
[08:58] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so I think it's such an important space that we're in right now with trying to navigate
[09:04] SPEAKER_02: that and really tough for leaders to navigate it.
[09:07] SPEAKER_02: I think the biggest thing is that we're instilling some really purposeful and deliberate ways
[09:14] SPEAKER_02: to create connection for people.
[09:17] SPEAKER_02: And so that can look like a lot of different ways in the virtual environment,
[09:23] SPEAKER_02: but it's actually being aware that it's really important that we're talking to one another
[09:29] SPEAKER_02: on a regular basis.
[09:30] SPEAKER_02: It's really easy for us to get into our little bubbles.
[09:33] SPEAKER_02: And I think I've got my work done.
[09:35] SPEAKER_02: Check, check, here I go.
[09:37] SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
[09:38] SPEAKER_02: Not really understanding the impact of all of that.
[09:40] SPEAKER_02: So leaders can, you know, often bring their teams together, whether that's once a week,
[09:46] SPEAKER_02: whether they start the week on a Monday morning where it's everybody comes together,
[09:50] SPEAKER_02: we're going to have just a Q&A about what's happening, how is your weekend,
[09:55] SPEAKER_02: so a bit of that social connection.
[09:57] SPEAKER_02: And then we're going to talk about what's on our place for the week and where do we see some connections
[10:02] SPEAKER_02: that, you know, I'm working on this and I can see that I'm going to be reaching out to you.
[10:07] SPEAKER_02: This week is a result of that that you can expect to hear from me.
[10:11] SPEAKER_02: So we're just starting to share some information and build some connection with one another
[10:18] SPEAKER_02: through the context of what's on your mind, what's on your plate this week, how can we support one another.
[10:25] SPEAKER_02: And it's just that simple act of being really purposeful that can help people feel more connected.
[10:31] SPEAKER_02: They're more open to collaborating with one another.
[10:33] SPEAKER_02: They know what to expect.
[10:35] SPEAKER_02: So it yields all sorts of really positive connection activities.
[10:41] SPEAKER_01: So I'm wondering, you know, in what you've seen and heard,
[10:48] SPEAKER_01: is there a connection between the different industries?
[10:52] SPEAKER_01: Like, are certain industries more prone to have more or less engaged employees?
[11:02] SPEAKER_01: And also the where they are, because I'm thinking, you know, downtown Edmonton corporate Edmonton,
[11:09] SPEAKER_01: like, you know, it's probably more people that are less engaged than say some other environment, right?
[11:17] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think the interesting thing about the engagement piece is it is so dependent on not necessarily your location or where you go,
[11:27] SPEAKER_02: but so dependent on the relationships that you have in your work environment.
[11:32] SPEAKER_02: So yes, you could probably say that there's certain industries on engineering firm, right, versus, you know,
[11:41] SPEAKER_02: a recreation center where people are working very different experiences in that work environment.
[11:48] SPEAKER_02: I think what's what's most valuable or useful is to think about engagement around that relational piece.
[11:56] SPEAKER_02: So regardless of what industry you are, we still have this basic human need to feel connected and to have some sort of relationship
[12:04] SPEAKER_02: with the people that we're working with.
[12:06] SPEAKER_02: And so that's really where my work focuses on.
[12:10] SPEAKER_02: It's that there's a there's a more human element to engagements that we're trying to bring to the top.
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[12:28] SPEAKER_01: Now, this is such a fascinating topic.
[12:33] SPEAKER_01: And I'll a little later get into a personal thing, but in terms of engagement, but I'm also curious about two other things.
[12:44] SPEAKER_01: And the first thing is, if you have an environment that's less engaged, is it also creates an environment where the turnover of people is more likely?
[13:03] SPEAKER_02: Statistically, yes, that's what it does show.
[13:06] SPEAKER_02: And so we will make our own choices, right?
[13:10] SPEAKER_02: In the path that we want to take in this and the space that we want to keep.
[13:13] SPEAKER_02: If we, one of the things that I found really interesting is that we spend about on average 90,000 hours at work through our lifetime.
[13:22] SPEAKER_02: And that's depending on what position you hold, it could be much higher than that, right?
[13:28] SPEAKER_02: And especially in a leadership position.
[13:31] SPEAKER_02: So what we're experiencing at work, we carry with us in all different aspects of our life.
[13:38] SPEAKER_02: And so if we're in a work environment where we're not connected, we don't feel like we're making a difference.
[13:45] SPEAKER_02: We don't feel heard, we don't feel seen, we don't feel valued.
[13:48] SPEAKER_02: We are more likely to make a choice to look for an environment where we will get those things because they are fundamentally what we need as human beings to feel that we can do good work.
[14:03] SPEAKER_01: The other aspect that that I was curious from a demographic point of view in today's world,
[14:12] SPEAKER_01: what demographic is more likely to be less engaged these days?
[14:16] SPEAKER_02: We're seeing so far in the statistics that it's, you know, the Gen Z Gen X.
[14:24] SPEAKER_02: And what we're seeing is that it's because they are looking to come in and work differently, which is rubbing up a little bit against what our traditional forms of workplace are.
[14:37] SPEAKER_02: So yeah, this is presenting a challenge for leaders, right?
[14:41] SPEAKER_02: To manage these multi-generational workplaces and some of them, especially in small businesses, you can see up to five different generations in one workplace with all of these different experiences that they're bringing with them.
[14:55] SPEAKER_02: And you get an appreciation as a leader to actually say, okay, so how I grew up in the way that I did my education,
[15:03] SPEAKER_02: the work experience that I have is fundamentally different than what is coming in.
[15:08] SPEAKER_02: The younger generation is just like, it was all technology. I'm used to picking up my phone and asking a question and getting an answer.
[15:17] SPEAKER_02: The older generation is, I'm used to having to walk down the hallway and ask the question of somebody, right?
[15:25] SPEAKER_02: So it's just like these really interesting dynamics that are starting to show up and how we actually have some conversation and generate some understanding about what each of us is bringing in to the workplace
[15:37] SPEAKER_02: and what those strengths are and how we can leverage it can be super important for organizations right now.
[15:43] SPEAKER_01: All right. So last question I have and it's kind of a, as I said, personal thing. So, you know, I work in that kind of mentioned, you know, for a big company for 35 years before getting laid off, but that's another story.
[16:01] SPEAKER_01: But over the years, you know, you know, the company realizes that they got to do some stuff with employees, right?
[16:09] SPEAKER_01: So they introduce all these, excuse me, training sessions, right? And now, raw, good stuff happening, you know, and all that stuff.
[16:18] SPEAKER_01: But I always found that, you know, the execution of what, you know, from the training sessions never happened, right?
[16:27] SPEAKER_01: Because the people that were supposed to execute it, which would be your managers and leaders never followed through. And, you know, how do you, how do you, how do you get into a company mindset that the need, they need to buy in from all levels to make sure this happens.
[16:53] SPEAKER_02: Yeah. So that's probably one of the biggest challenges and the ones that I'm confronted with all of the time, because I'll get called in to work with a specific team.
[17:02] SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
[17:02] SPEAKER_02: You do all this great work. And then they're all excited. Yeah.
[17:06] SPEAKER_02: And nothing happens after that.
[17:07] SPEAKER_01: Exactly. And then it's first is then it becomes worse, right?
[17:11] SPEAKER_02: It does.
[17:12] SPEAKER_02: So one of the first places that I stop is I'm like, okay, so yes, I'm happy to work with your team. But let's talk about what your leadership thinks about this.
[17:22] SPEAKER_02: Where they want to go. What sort, what does leadership look like here in this organization?
[17:29] SPEAKER_02: And then I find that it's really, really important to invite those leaders into make sure that they're having the same training.
[17:37] SPEAKER_02: Is part of the challenge is we come up with new language and we're super excited. We try it in a meeting. And then all of a sudden, nobody else gets it or they just shut down. You're like, well, forget it.
[17:46] SPEAKER_02: I'm not going to do it. Right. So it's really, really challenging, but you have to start with the leadership in an organization.
[17:53] SPEAKER_02: You have to have those conversations first to get really clear about what their objectives are and their outcomes and how they can support.
[18:01] SPEAKER_02: The work and the investment that's being made. And I think that's the other piece here that we miss sometimes like to do this training cost money.
[18:09] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you're making the investment not just financially to bring the training in, but also people's time.
[18:15] SPEAKER_02: And so it costs you money to do this. You want to be sure that you're making the most of it.
[18:23] SPEAKER_01: Excellent. Well, thanks so much Maria for joining us today. That was wonderful.
[18:29] SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Mario. It was a great conversation.
[18:32] SPEAKER_01: All right. That was Maria De Bruin, who is an author and CEO of Emerge Solutions.
[18:38] SPEAKER_01: This has been Edmonton's podcast. I'm Mario Tonogus, he managing editor of Canada's podcast. Thanks for joining us today.
