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TRANSCRIPTION WITH SPEAKERS
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[00:00] SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Canada's podcast.
[00:05] SPEAKER_01: Hi, this is Celine Williams hosting for Montereo for Canada's podcast.
[00:09] SPEAKER_01: My guest today is Steven Salz, who is the Chief Executive Officer of Rival Recorp, Canada's
[00:15] SPEAKER_01: newest publicly listed eye gaming and sports betting company.
[00:20] SPEAKER_01: Welcome Steven.
[00:22] SPEAKER_02: It's for our community, for sure.
[00:24] SPEAKER_01: It's absolutely a pleasure.
[00:25] SPEAKER_01: I'd love to hear a little bit, I know we were talking before I hit record, but I'd
[00:30] SPEAKER_01: love to hear a little bit about your journey to becoming the CEO of Rivalry and how you
[00:37] SPEAKER_01: got to this point.
[00:41] SPEAKER_02: Sure.
[00:42] SPEAKER_02: Well, my first contract actually just said business.
[00:44] SPEAKER_02: It didn't even have a title CEO.
[00:45] SPEAKER_02: My account is business.
[00:47] SPEAKER_02: We're just looking back because we had to update our contracts before the company of
[00:50] SPEAKER_02: public.
[00:50] SPEAKER_02: I have two main operating co-founders.
[00:53] SPEAKER_02: There's four of us.
[00:54] SPEAKER_02: One is the chairman of the board and then Steve as well.
[00:58] SPEAKER_02: Another one is Ryan and Kevin.
[01:02] SPEAKER_02: We're operational.
[01:03] SPEAKER_02: Ryan's was technology.
[01:04] SPEAKER_02: He's an RCTO.
[01:05] SPEAKER_02: Kevin's was marketing.
[01:07] SPEAKER_02: He was our CMO for the technically now.
[01:09] SPEAKER_02: He's our CEO and then mindset business.
[01:11] SPEAKER_02: That was a little bit of the contract.
[01:13] SPEAKER_02: CEO, yes.
[01:18] SPEAKER_02: Rivalry is like a esports or competitive gaming focus sportsbook.
[01:22] SPEAKER_02: We offer everything and very much also like an internet culture brand.
[01:27] SPEAKER_02: Very like the Navy ridiculous silly in your face and very big brand kind of the thing
[01:32] SPEAKER_02: that we do.
[01:34] SPEAKER_02: My own background is super interesting gaming when I was younger.
[01:37] SPEAKER_02: A lot of people by age went into finance professionally.
[01:40] SPEAKER_02: So it was in investment banking for a little bit.
[01:43] SPEAKER_02: Not doing banking but doing equity research which is more writing research reports on
[01:48] SPEAKER_02: potential outcomes for public stocks.
[01:50] SPEAKER_02: So it was doing that for a bit.
[01:51] SPEAKER_02: And then in 2014 and 15 was really interested in what was happening in the virtual goods
[01:56] SPEAKER_02: marketplaces online.
[01:57] SPEAKER_02: So this is like NFTs, like pre-NFTs where there was a couple, there's a couple very large
[02:02] SPEAKER_02: games.
[02:02] SPEAKER_02: So the two of the biggest esports actually today still called CSGO and Dota 2.
[02:07] SPEAKER_02: One's a shooting game, one's a strategy game.
[02:09] SPEAKER_02: And the publisher for both those games is the same and they created a system where you
[02:13] SPEAKER_02: could actually transact in game items with other players for real money because some
[02:18] SPEAKER_02: are very rare, some are very common and some of the rare ones go for thousands of dollars.
[02:22] SPEAKER_02: And it's just an aesthetic that changes the way your weapon looks or you physically look
[02:25] SPEAKER_02: or whatever.
[02:27] SPEAKER_02: And then there was a way mechanically that you can run a third party marketplace to allow
[02:33] SPEAKER_02: users to transact those goods.
[02:35] SPEAKER_02: And I was like, this is, I would sign up like the one the publisher controls.
[02:37] SPEAKER_02: And the reason why people wanted to do that was because you could actually withdraw real
[02:40] SPEAKER_02: money.
[02:41] SPEAKER_02: Because in the internal one, you couldn't actually withdraw, even though you could buy
[02:44] SPEAKER_02: in self real money, you could actually take money out.
[02:46] SPEAKER_02: And these third party ones you could.
[02:48] SPEAKER_02: So I was trading items around those marketplaces while still working in finance because it
[02:53] SPEAKER_02: was these were like, there was billions of liquidity actually in these marketplaces and
[02:57] SPEAKER_02: they traded like stocks.
[02:58] SPEAKER_02: I thought it was interesting kind of compare my, brought my two passions together.
[03:01] SPEAKER_02: And then I reached out to these two guys, Ryan and Kevin, who eventually come like co-founders
[03:05] SPEAKER_02: at rivalry.
[03:06] SPEAKER_02: We're running a very large one out of Toronto called loot market and met them wanting to invest
[03:12] SPEAKER_02: in what they were doing.
[03:13] SPEAKER_02: We just ended up becoming business partners.
[03:15] SPEAKER_02: This goes into like 2016.
[03:17] SPEAKER_02: And then that was it.
[03:18] SPEAKER_02: And maybe, yeah, the partners co-founded what would eventually become rivalry, raise some
[03:22] SPEAKER_02: money and run from there.
[03:24] SPEAKER_02: But it was, yeah, it kind of didn't go in thinking I would be the CEO or that's what would
[03:29] SPEAKER_02: happen.
[03:30] SPEAKER_02: We all kind of just played to our strengths.
[03:31] SPEAKER_02: And then the role of the CEO kind of just fell more to my strengths than theirs.
[03:36] SPEAKER_02: But it started off as just business.
[03:38] SPEAKER_02: And then at the KCO.
[03:40] SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
[03:41] SPEAKER_01: I mean, I feel like there's a lot of CEOs out there who can relate to business being a
[03:45] SPEAKER_01: strength and CEO being the result of that.
[03:48] SPEAKER_01: It's like, yeah, this is the thing.
[03:50] SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
[03:51] SPEAKER_02: There was like three of us in his basement in Shida, town in Toronto for us.
[03:56] SPEAKER_02: And then yeah, now it's like 100 and whatever, 110, 150 people globally in 20 countries.
[04:01] SPEAKER_02: So it's changed, it's changed a lot in the last four years, one half years.
[04:05] SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
[04:06] SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
[04:07] SPEAKER_01: Yes, that's a very different role when you're CEO with that many people versus the head
[04:13] SPEAKER_01: of business in someone's basement.
[04:16] SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
[04:16] SPEAKER_02: It's a different world.
[04:17] SPEAKER_02: That didn't mean much.
[04:18] SPEAKER_02: No.
[04:20] SPEAKER_01: So I'm curious.
[04:23] SPEAKER_01: And get this is based on what you just said, actually, I don't know, I would have asked
[04:28] SPEAKER_01: this otherwise, but I am curious.
[04:30] SPEAKER_01: That's a lot of change in four or four and a half years, right?
[04:33] SPEAKER_01: That's that's a lot of growth.
[04:34] SPEAKER_01: It in congratulations because it is, it's a tremendous amount of growth.
[04:39] SPEAKER_01: But it's also a lot of change for you as stepping into the role of CEO and having 120
[04:45] SPEAKER_01: people in 20 countries.
[04:49] SPEAKER_01: So it's not only the remote element, but the cultural element, but the growth element,
[04:55] SPEAKER_01: but all of these things together.
[04:57] SPEAKER_01: And I'm curious, you know, what has that been like for you?
[05:01] SPEAKER_01: What have you learned?
[05:05] SPEAKER_01: What have you noticed?
[05:05] SPEAKER_01: What have you observed?
[05:06] SPEAKER_01: What's that experience been like for you in such a protracted period of time?
[05:11] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, there was a lot of personal change as well because it's just like critical
[05:15] SPEAKER_02: years even for myself.
[05:16] SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I started the company, I was 25 and 31 now, just turned 31.
[05:21] SPEAKER_02: I got married, I had a kid, I don't have a second kid, got a dog and then took the
[05:27] SPEAKER_02: kind of thing.
[05:27] SPEAKER_01: So all paced out just like, yeah.
[05:30] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and then the company also went public last year.
[05:33] SPEAKER_02: So it all happened within like the same window and then COVID has been like two of those
[05:37] SPEAKER_02: years, which is a lot.
[05:39] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so I don't know how to answer that question.
[05:44] SPEAKER_02: I guess, yeah, I'm really sure they answered that question.
[05:49] SPEAKER_02: I think like more, definitely like more, like you become callous, there's like like like
[05:54] SPEAKER_02: I somehow said this thing, it's like callous thing of the brain.
[05:57] SPEAKER_02: It's like when you lift weights, you get callous on your hands and it's just like callous
[06:00] SPEAKER_02: thing of the brain.
[06:00] SPEAKER_02: I look back and think like the things that would upset me are like emotionally frustrated
[06:05] SPEAKER_02: me and you're one and you're two versus today are like, you know, extremely different.
[06:10] SPEAKER_02: So you just become more callous mentally.
[06:14] SPEAKER_02: But I think also like you have to, yeah, it's huge about self growth.
[06:18] SPEAKER_02: I saw someone else say it's also been like building a business is like just exercise
[06:21] SPEAKER_02: and like self development or something like this.
[06:23] SPEAKER_02: It was some like that.
[06:24] SPEAKER_02: I think that's true.
[06:25] SPEAKER_02: Like you, you have to personally develop enormously if you want to scale a business properly
[06:31] SPEAKER_02: and have like the maturity that's required to come with it.
[06:33] SPEAKER_02: Be very kind of vulnerable to your own, um, buckups and the things you're about to,
[06:38] SPEAKER_02: because you'll find your bad at the time of shit.
[06:40] SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, there's a lot of that.
[06:43] SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
[06:44] SPEAKER_02: But it varies like I learned a lot from like, yeah, building culture is hard, you know,
[06:48] SPEAKER_02: recruiting is hard, creating great communication in a company is hard, goal setting is hard,
[06:54] SPEAKER_02: giving feedback is hard.
[06:56] SPEAKER_02: Like, ever, yeah, you just learn lots of different things throughout.
[07:00] SPEAKER_01: So lots of, lots of hard aspects of building a company is the, is the lesson here, which
[07:05] SPEAKER_01: is, yeah, by the way, is real, right?
[07:09] SPEAKER_01: Like it's, it's, it's real and it's important to acknowledge that it is hard to do all these
[07:13] SPEAKER_01: things.
[07:13] SPEAKER_01: It is, these are not easy things to do.
[07:16] SPEAKER_01: Not also, not only are they not simple, but they're not easy to do.
[07:21] SPEAKER_01: And I think it's important to acknowledge that as part of everything that you've done
[07:26] SPEAKER_01: in the past six years, because it's a lot.
[07:29] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think it's like the stamina because you have to have like urgency every day, but
[07:32] SPEAKER_02: also be patient at the same time, which is difficult.
[07:35] SPEAKER_02: It's, it's like, there's all these like dichotomies I find, like when you're building a business.
[07:40] SPEAKER_02: So yeah, you have to have like maximum urgency and velocity like every single day to survive,
[07:44] SPEAKER_02: especially when you're in the early stages, but you also have to be like super patient on
[07:48] SPEAKER_02: your vision of your thesis at like the exact same time.
[07:50] SPEAKER_02: So it's like balancing like there's all these like little balances you have to have, like
[07:54] SPEAKER_02: going the whole way through.
[07:55] SPEAKER_02: It's the same with like culture where you want to have like a performance oriented culture,
[07:59] SPEAKER_02: but you also don't want to burn people out in micro management.
[08:03] SPEAKER_02: Like you can have both, but it's difficult to like find that balance.
[08:06] SPEAKER_02: So a lot of that.
[08:08] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's it reminds me of I think it's Brené Brown, and I might be attributing this
[08:15] SPEAKER_01: concept incorrectly, in which case I apologize to Brené Brown and whoever I've not
[08:19] SPEAKER_01: attributed this properly to, but I think it is her.
[08:22] SPEAKER_01: And she speaks about how one of the key elements of leadership is being able to hold
[08:28] SPEAKER_01: these two thoughts that are completely opposite, oppositional at the same time, because
[08:34] SPEAKER_01: both are true.
[08:36] SPEAKER_01: And that that is one of the biggest challenges that leaders face is recognizing that it's
[08:42] SPEAKER_01: always a yes and a not an either or and we tend to think that it's either or and we tend
[08:48] SPEAKER_01: to think that's it can't it's got to be one or the other, but as leaders and especially
[08:53] SPEAKER_01: as a CEO, you would be seeing all the time.
[08:56] SPEAKER_01: It's both that finding that finding that balance is critical.
[08:59] SPEAKER_01: And I'd be curious for you, how have you, what has worked for you or what have you
[09:04] SPEAKER_01: learned in doing that in finding the balance or holding both of those two things to be
[09:12] SPEAKER_01: true at the same time?
[09:14] SPEAKER_02: And I like it's more like you have to be super self-reflective the whole way and be
[09:19] SPEAKER_02: like really, really thoughtful about everything you do.
[09:21] SPEAKER_02: So like when you come into like when you face one of those challenges, like one of the things
[09:24] SPEAKER_02: I do a lot is like I write usually at the end of the day, like at night, and I just
[09:27] SPEAKER_02: try to like write down a very, you know, if there was a some kind of yeah, some dichotomy
[09:35] SPEAKER_02: that I face where you have to be in the same moment, you feel like extremely brutal and
[09:39] SPEAKER_02: kind of go for the kill, but at the same time be like very kind and generous, which actually
[09:42] SPEAKER_02: happens a lot when you're doing things when you're building a business.
[09:45] SPEAKER_02: So you have to kind of reflect on it at the end of the day and understand like why that
[09:49] SPEAKER_02: situation happened and how you approached it and how it made you feel.
[09:53] SPEAKER_02: So you have to have like huge emotional control is the one thing I'd say.
[09:58] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, this was I think which to be quoting people the whole time, but this quote is like,
[10:03] SPEAKER_02: this was like Napoleon or something, but it's like I brought it down, it's this
[10:06] SPEAKER_02: in French originally, but it was something about how like you can't,
[10:12] SPEAKER_02: if you can't stay like if the person let's say at the top, let's just say like, you know,
[10:17] SPEAKER_02: lots of people like us at the top, but if leadership of the company can't say like
[10:20] SPEAKER_02: compose an even keels, then you can't expect like anybody else to.
[10:24] SPEAKER_02: So if you lose like emotional control, you know, it's it's just, it starts like feed into the
[10:31] SPEAKER_02: the culture everywhere and then people will be super reactive and panicky to everything.
[10:35] SPEAKER_02: You can't have that. So like in the absolute census worse moments we have like a lot of
[10:39] SPEAKER_02: these times where like it feels like things are absolutely blowing up or we're very global
[10:43] SPEAKER_02: business. We operate multiple markets. I think can't happen in a market that can like feel like
[10:46] SPEAKER_02: it's exploding the entire market and you've worked a year for it. And you know, the country
[10:50] SPEAKER_02: leading that market will come like extremely emotionally heated and worried and just like tons of
[10:55] SPEAKER_02: fears and you know, you have to yeah, you have to be like unbelievably calm and patient the whole
[11:01] SPEAKER_02: way. But then which I will to them, but then on the other side, you know, I'm very aggressively
[11:07] SPEAKER_02: and potentially with a lot of emotion, making sure like I get stuck with it fixed without them
[11:11] SPEAKER_02: feeling you know, all that energy come off me. So it's like you're constantly dealing with that,
[11:16] SPEAKER_02: but I found definitely writing has helped a lot and reading. Yeah, you have to read and learn from
[11:21] SPEAKER_02: other people's experiences otherwise. You're not going to be able to like recontextualize what's
[11:25] SPEAKER_02: happening with you and you're going to feel like it's particularly bad and horrible when in reality,
[11:29] SPEAKER_02: you know, comparatively, it's probably not. So that will help as well at least I found.
[11:34] SPEAKER_01: I think that's a really important point to land is that that the the opportunity to recontextualize
[11:41] SPEAKER_01: and to put them in perspective at that be what I would add from my own experience to put them
[11:46] SPEAKER_01: in perspective where it's we tend to catastrophize in the moment like I am the only one this happens
[11:52] SPEAKER_01: to. It's the worst thing ever. So being able to recontextualize and put it in perspective where it's
[11:57] SPEAKER_01: like, Oh, I'm not alone. I'm not the only one. It's not as bad as I I feel like that is really
[12:04] SPEAKER_01: important when you are leading any organization let alone a fast growing one.
[12:11] SPEAKER_02: The thing I do is like even like some visualization where I'll say, okay, well, does that the ideal
[12:16] SPEAKER_02: version of myself would they like care about this or like would they let this bother them or someone
[12:20] SPEAKER_02: that like I admire not even doesn't have to be a present-day person again like I we talked before
[12:24] SPEAKER_02: the podcast I read a lot of history and like very fascinated by the last kind of hundred years of
[12:27] SPEAKER_02: history. So you could also like someone you admire from history even you know they let this bother
[12:32] SPEAKER_02: them. In most cases, the answer is no and even the future version of self-meansers no because I find
[12:41] SPEAKER_02: this you stay small like you stock you you know you know you don't develop so yeah you got to try
[12:46] SPEAKER_02: and recontextualize and definitely I find if you have some some marker whether it's like a person
[12:52] SPEAKER_02: a version of yourself whatever that you can put it up against it helps a lot definitely. Yeah,
[12:56] SPEAKER_01: I think that's a great I think that's a great piece of advice for anyone listening to this to
[13:00] SPEAKER_01: keep in mind that having that whatever that marker is for you that works to continuously reassess
[13:07] SPEAKER_01: against that and in those challenging moments I think that's a really great piece of advice.
[13:13] SPEAKER_01: I'm curious as you have grown the business and dealt with more personalities and stepped more and
[13:20] SPEAKER_01: more into leader from business into CEO leadership generic business into CEO leadership.
[13:27] SPEAKER_01: What have been the biggest challenges that you've faced whether it's I listen I'm not saying
[13:33] SPEAKER_01: personal or not business or not but what have been the biggest challenges that that you've faced and
[13:40] SPEAKER_01: um what did what did you learn from them or what did you do to move through them as you as they came up.
[13:46] SPEAKER_02: The hardest thing for me I think my co-founders as well because they both they're a bit old to the
[13:50] SPEAKER_02: mean that they've built other companies but never I like to scale that this one I got into that we
[13:54] SPEAKER_02: discounted was culture and how insanely difficult it is to build culture and that really like when
[13:58] SPEAKER_02: I look at it the success of the company is just because of the success of the culture and I want to say
[14:02] SPEAKER_02: it's perfect today and it can always get better but we definitely have like very good culture we know
[14:07] SPEAKER_02: from yeah a few different kind of case studies or points of success that we can be a point to but it
[14:12] SPEAKER_02: took us like years to get there but that was like probably the biggest failure at the beginning is
[14:16] SPEAKER_02: like completely under investing in people and culture and how we thought about all those things
[14:20] SPEAKER_02: and feedback and setting up like the architecture of like you know career progression mapping
[14:25] SPEAKER_02: and everything for individuals stuff like that you just don't think about because I think the type
[14:29] SPEAKER_02: when you start a business you wear like all the hats and you're usually very like you know let's say
[14:34] SPEAKER_02: go get her type where you don't care about your title and you'll come back in this
[14:37] SPEAKER_02: schedule like if the job done and whatever like you know you put me anywhere and like I'll do it
[14:41] SPEAKER_02: give me the crappiest computer doesn't matter like no sleep like I'll just get it done you kind of
[14:46] SPEAKER_02: have that mentality when you start that's definitely changes over a couple years but you start with
[14:50] SPEAKER_02: that mentality and then it took myself and my partners because we're all wired that way
[14:55] SPEAKER_02: it took us longer than it should have to realize well the you know not every single person that
[14:59] SPEAKER_02: works here thinks the exact same way that we do about that particular thing and that we can't
[15:03] SPEAKER_02: build a culture around you know grinding and you know just killing ourselves every day because that
[15:07] SPEAKER_02: is not going to work at scale and it didn't pretty quickly that that's a go while we saw it like a
[15:13] SPEAKER_02: lot of like outside advice and counsel and speaking to like you know four members and other founders
[15:19] SPEAKER_02: that we know on our network that we kind of go through it and it's interesting because like I'd
[15:22] SPEAKER_02: say the most consistent thing that I get as a challenge at fatter space is culture building is
[15:26] SPEAKER_02: probably the most like consistent one by far so that was the hardest one we definitely failed at
[15:31] SPEAKER_02: the beginning and I think it was just seeking like as much advice as we possibly could and then
[15:35] SPEAKER_02: being introspective because the culture ultimately is a good reflection view in your own principles
[15:39] SPEAKER_02: for sure the founders of the company so it was a lot of again like introspection works I think
[15:45] SPEAKER_02: that's what people discount is you can be like brilliant technically even if you're doing like a
[15:49] SPEAKER_02: really hard engineering based business and you can have like yeah extremely brilliant technical
[15:53] SPEAKER_02: skills and incredible engineers but if you don't get the culture right you can still bail like it's
[15:58] SPEAKER_02: it's and I think people go in to building a business massively this can be like the soft
[16:05] SPEAKER_02: component of the build which ultimately I think is actually one of the bigger drivers success
[16:09] SPEAKER_02: than the actual like technical component most of the time.
[16:20] SPEAKER_00: with commission and Matthew Boswell of the competition bureau here about competition and
[16:25] SPEAKER_00: marketing rules every business you'd know click the link in the description to learn more about
[16:31] SPEAKER_01: creating an effective compliance program. I'm going to take a clip of this I'm just going to use
[16:38] SPEAKER_01: this to promote my business going for and I say this because I I am nodding along to everything
[16:47] SPEAKER_01: that you're saying because the work that I do is all in leadership and culture like that's the
[16:50] SPEAKER_01: business that I run is in that and I see this all the time and what I always say to founders and
[16:56] SPEAKER_01: leaders because I do work with a lot a lot of large organizations is it doesn't matter how good
[17:01] SPEAKER_01: your product is it does not matter what you're selling if the people don't want to everything
[17:07] SPEAKER_01: depends on your people everything depends on your people wanting to be there wanting to sell it
[17:11] SPEAKER_01: wanting to develop it wanting to do whatever their role is inside the organization so if you are not
[17:15] SPEAKER_01: developing those people leading those people and creating a culture that they want to be a part of
[17:19] SPEAKER_01: they're not going to stay around because there's a very small percentage of people who are
[17:24] SPEAKER_01: ever as bought in as the founders to the idea and if you're relying on people to be that bought in
[17:31] SPEAKER_02: it's there's a tipping point yeah we don't like I think maybe I was not even the first couple
[17:36] SPEAKER_02: months but like I take I pretty quickly realize just because I'm some most of us after all so from
[17:41] SPEAKER_02: like let's say my generation it's like younger generation, excuse me younger the our staff base
[17:47] SPEAKER_02: and I say I think it also is like generationally different like my parents generation it was
[17:51] SPEAKER_02: you know very much being the company person you know working there for 20-30 years getting
[17:56] SPEAKER_02: whatever the gold wash that was like the thing and like loyalty was a thing your boss could be
[18:00] SPEAKER_02: you know asked to you and you just stuck around but like sticking around was like a merit batch it
[18:04] SPEAKER_02: was a really different whereas now not to say it's like the gig economy and I don't even think
[18:08] SPEAKER_02: that conceptually is a good thing but you know I think that it is a generation that grew up with
[18:14] SPEAKER_02: very different ideals put into their heads about who they are and the type of people they are
[18:18] SPEAKER_02: and what they're capable of and you know I think people are just going to switch jobs more frequently
[18:24] SPEAKER_02: with we already see that I think it's just like this this nature of the economy with the new generation
[18:29] SPEAKER_02: coming up is just going to be very different in the way that people go to jobs in the way that
[18:33] SPEAKER_02: their identity is shaped by their work which is just super different than past ones we're just super
[18:37] SPEAKER_02: very cognizant of that so I say like the culture that we built at rivalry but I think this could
[18:42] SPEAKER_02: be universal obviously some idea and you know people will do what they want we think people just
[18:48] SPEAKER_02: want to work at a place that obviously compensate them at or above market for sure to do work that they
[18:54] SPEAKER_02: feel they're very good at with people that they also feel that are talented and the culture that
[18:57] SPEAKER_02: respects them that will significantly increase the probability of them succeeding in their own personal
[19:03] SPEAKER_02: professional goals after they leave your company like that's our big thing and we even talk about
[19:07] SPEAKER_02: it when we're interviewing people that haven't yet worked for rivalry is my actual goal for the culture
[19:12] SPEAKER_02: is I want the probability of your success after you leave rivalry to be greater than you
[19:18] SPEAKER_02: haven't done the exact same thing and a comparable company like that's really the goal of the culture
[19:22] SPEAKER_02: is like a performance oriented culture that respects you and it has you working with people
[19:26] SPEAKER_02: ideally that you want to work with that are talented and that whatever you do after you want you know
[19:31] SPEAKER_02: Rosalina alumni to be doing things that are like absolutely incredible I don't care if you stay with us
[19:35] SPEAKER_02: for one two three years like do what you want but you should this should be like a training round to
[19:41] SPEAKER_02: just be like a significantly better version of yourself once you exit whatever you want to exit
[19:46] SPEAKER_02: so it's not a culture that places um necessarily more value on staying longer like I guess I'd say
[19:53] SPEAKER_02: yeah that's that's kind of how we how we do it yeah and I think that's a really healthy perspective
[19:58] SPEAKER_01: to have right like I think when you can um what when I do I work with a lot of larger organizations
[20:06] SPEAKER_01: and we're often talking about you know the employee experience start to finish and when I come at
[20:11] SPEAKER_01: it from a culture standpoint I will say ultimately when someone leaves your organization you want them
[20:17] SPEAKER_01: to be wherever they are going to be cheerleading for you even others out there because they had such a good
[20:23] SPEAKER_01: if you have people who are like rivalry was awesome and I learned so much that means you've
[20:29] SPEAKER_01: done your job from a culture perspective because they don't have to do it and that's it sounds to me
[20:34] SPEAKER_01: as you're speaking I'm like that is completely aligned that's what you're setting yourself that's the
[20:39] SPEAKER_02: success you're setting up for those people yeah it's just it's just difficult like I think so the
[20:43] SPEAKER_02: point you made I very quickly realized it does not realistic have people have the same excitement
[20:49] SPEAKER_02: about the company vision that I do because I'm one who built it with my partners right so it's just
[20:55] SPEAKER_02: I completely realistic with that and that's why the goal of the culture is not to have like who
[20:59] SPEAKER_02: can be the most bonded for the vision for the longest and stay the longest it's you know who can gain
[21:04] SPEAKER_02: the most from a really performance oriented culture and then find themselves leaving here achieving
[21:09] SPEAKER_02: like even greater success that have a knock in here that's that's really all we want to be honest yeah
[21:13] SPEAKER_01: and I think that's fantastic and I and I appreciate you bringing up culture is like the you know the
[21:18] SPEAKER_01: biggest challenge and and also opportunity to learn because I think we don't know we often talk
[21:24] SPEAKER_01: the number of times I hear people talk about getting funding or or going public and it's not to say
[21:29] SPEAKER_01: those things aren't challenging I want to make that really clear I understand they are it's not to
[21:33] SPEAKER_01: take away from that but we don't often founders don't talk about the softer skills and the challenges
[21:40] SPEAKER_01: that come with that softer side of business and they're real so I think it's really important you
[21:44] SPEAKER_01: brought that up especially because you're in an industry that is more technical than some of the
[21:50] SPEAKER_02: other ones yeah I think solving technical problems is obviously like extremely difficult and that's
[21:56] SPEAKER_02: a good pre-requisite to success but I don't think it's a determinant of success as much as building
[22:03] SPEAKER_02: a great highly scalable organization that attracts really talented people to do their best work
[22:09] SPEAKER_02: and enjoy themselves that will lead likely to more success than just solving really hard engineering
[22:14] SPEAKER_01: problems well you need both but yeah yeah it's again it's one of those it's not either or it's
[22:20] SPEAKER_01: both on and right yeah yeah I think that's I think that's a great point um so I'm curious for those who
[22:29] SPEAKER_01: um you know aren't familiar with rivalry and aren't really familiar with what you do and we've
[22:34] SPEAKER_01: talked about it being a bit technical can you give us a quick overview of what it is that
[22:39] SPEAKER_01: that you do that the or that you do specifically Steve but what the what the company does and
[22:45] SPEAKER_01: and kind of what they're the world they play in is yeah so we're definitely we see yourself as
[22:51] SPEAKER_02: like a media and sports betting business so we are like our core product that we make money on
[22:55] SPEAKER_02: is sports betting so the way sportsbook makes money it's somewhat simple on surface and
[23:00] SPEAKER_02: like against like kind of the math beneath it but basically you're the house you know people have
[23:03] SPEAKER_02: seen any you know uh lots of TV shows and movies around you know casinos or sports betting or bookies
[23:08] SPEAKER_02: or whatever maybe you're the house so what happens is you've got two teams playing each other people bet
[23:13] SPEAKER_02: on either side because you have to pay out no matter who wins you're taking out risk for taking
[23:18] SPEAKER_02: on the risk you basically keep a little bit off the top of the pot so to say and that confidence
[23:23] SPEAKER_02: you for the risk because it is possible you could lose a lot uh it's as well as we could win a lot
[23:29] SPEAKER_02: but you create some margin of error in the way that you manage your sportsbook and that allows you
[23:33] SPEAKER_02: to generate revenue to compensate for the risk that's basically all of this the way that we operate
[23:38] SPEAKER_02: things around where you know is we're very esports focused so esports is like competitive video games
[23:43] SPEAKER_02: very very popular thing now you know most people out of the age of 30 in most countries are more
[23:47] SPEAKER_02: likely to watch a major esport that they are traditional or like physical sport so and the
[23:52] SPEAKER_02: viewership like the concurrent viewership from most large esports is bigger than almost any sport
[23:57] SPEAKER_02: in the world other than maybe some NFL games and some soccer games in Europe so it's like extremely
[24:02] SPEAKER_02: extremely popular around the world it's kind of like the sport of the internet it like the next big
[24:06] SPEAKER_02: kind of wave of what let's say younger demos looking to participate in and then that's like our
[24:12] SPEAKER_02: bread and butter is focusing on that and then we offer betting on everything else with all the major
[24:16] SPEAKER_02: esports there's like a dozen of them and then major traditional sports like soccer hockey whatever
[24:20] SPEAKER_02: and then the positioning of the business in almost like 50% of the staff are like very creative
[24:25] SPEAKER_02: focus of creative marketing branding partnerships all that kind of stuff so we're a very very large
[24:31] SPEAKER_02: media brand in the place that we the space that we plan so the monthly engagement into rivalry is
[24:37] SPEAKER_02: more than the aggregate of all of our peers combined so we're like an extremely engaged brand
[24:41] SPEAKER_02: globally and the thing that we do like by far the biggest and yeah we have 150 brand partners
[24:46] SPEAKER_02: and creators who work with you know 25 plus social and video content channels lots of original
[24:51] SPEAKER_02: production original content everything like that so yeah very like relevant contextually relevant
[24:56] SPEAKER_02: kind of needy ridiculous you know gaming internet based cultural content I guess it's like I'd say
[25:03] SPEAKER_02: yeah so that drives like brand growth and acquisition and then the sportsbook is how we take money
[25:08] SPEAKER_01: on customers that come in so the I mean that's fascinating and I could ask you 1000 questions
[25:17] SPEAKER_01: but I'm going to ask you this question with all of that what is what do you see as either the future
[25:24] SPEAKER_01: for rivalry or the future for this and I'm you know I'm saying industry recognizing that it that's
[25:31] SPEAKER_01: a big word to use in this case but what do you see as the future for both for either rivalry and or
[25:38] SPEAKER_01: kind of the industry this world in general because I think it's a lot of people are
[25:44] SPEAKER_01: unfamiliar with it or unfamiliar with this aspect of it sure it's becoming like legal everywhere now
[25:51] SPEAKER_02: so even Ontario is the process of legalizing sports betting will be able to offer rivalry in Ontario
[25:56] SPEAKER_02: shortly Ontario is already the one of the biggest like offshore sports betting markets in the world
[26:01] SPEAKER_02: like people here bet perfect significant yeah a significant amount so now the government's legalizing
[26:07] SPEAKER_02: it because it's actually very similar to cannabis like okay people are doing it a lot why don't
[26:10] SPEAKER_02: we just like tax it make a little bit of money on it so which is rational so that's that's and
[26:16] SPEAKER_02: also regulate it because there is like good reason to regulate this industry to be honest so
[26:21] SPEAKER_02: not only comparing it to cannabis but just because a lot of Canadian people will be familiar with it
[26:24] SPEAKER_02: it is kind of that we're like cannabis God destigmatized by the legalization in a way and people
[26:29] SPEAKER_02: will realize that maybe it's not so bad betting is actually very similar where it is very much part
[26:35] SPEAKER_02: of the culture and a lot of other places in the world like Europe Asia even South America where
[26:40] SPEAKER_02: it's not seen in a stigmatized way as it is in like North America in certain parts of more like
[26:44] SPEAKER_02: call it central Europe I'd say where it's just like part of culture and that's what's starting to
[26:49] SPEAKER_02: happen globally is that people are realizing that it is just part of the culture watching competitive
[26:56] SPEAKER_02: things period like people just want to put you know their money where their mouth is and have some
[27:00] SPEAKER_02: skin in the game so I think that's a big part of what we're seeing is like there's de-stigmatization
[27:04] SPEAKER_02: stigmatization of sports betting slots in casinos something very different but like just sports
[27:08] SPEAKER_02: betting itself is definitely becoming destigmatized and even our approach arrived where is like
[27:12] SPEAKER_02: hyper casual so our whole thing is like people spending what they spend on like Uber Eats in a week
[27:17] SPEAKER_02: and that's really all people do is like it's just that kind of spending it's you know like your
[27:20] SPEAKER_02: Netflix subscription every month it's like that's the limit of it and we just do a lot of volume of
[27:24] SPEAKER_02: that kind of spending so just as like a straight entertainment product I think is just entering the
[27:29] SPEAKER_02: mainstream in a more meaningful way this thing with that cannabis one from like this negative
[27:33] SPEAKER_02: weird thing where now cannabis consultants are being involved in lots of you know more mainstream
[27:37] SPEAKER_02: places and doesn't get looked down upon the same way so I think that's what's just happening
[27:41] SPEAKER_02: culturally with it and then for rivalry you know sports betting is where we're starting but I don't
[27:46] SPEAKER_02: really think it's gonna be the end of what we do we're very much just building like really great
[27:49] SPEAKER_02: experiences that I'd say like the forefront of internet culture because that's just like the world
[27:53] SPEAKER_02: that we live in so we saw we see lots of opportunity to like when you've got a great consumer brand
[27:58] SPEAKER_02: then you can do more with it like great consumer brands can go kind of war horse on also
[28:02] SPEAKER_02: sports betting is a main product people really like and consume our content we want to do more of
[28:06] SPEAKER_02: that maybe start a lot of time seeing more like the media side of the business there's just a lot
[28:10] SPEAKER_02: of other kind of components that we can slot it because we'll just kind of love consuming what we do
[28:14] SPEAKER_02: and are just like super engaged in our ecosystem so yeah ideally going like bigger and broader
[28:19] SPEAKER_01: the future that just sports betting um it's it's it's really interesting because I
[28:27] SPEAKER_01: I mean I'll give you an example of I did not know the sports betting was illegal
[28:32] SPEAKER_01: uh because I think of things like if you're from Toronto this will you know the woodbine race track
[28:38] SPEAKER_01: and there's all these different like horse racing and and absolutely right so this is so this is
[28:44] SPEAKER_01: right so this is what I was gonna say is I know the woodbine I know that horse racing like people go
[28:49] SPEAKER_01: to woodbine racetrack and bet and there was the I mean I assume it's related but there was one
[28:54] SPEAKER_01: in sort of the beaches the whatever that betting place was so I just assumed that it was
[29:01] SPEAKER_01: legal to bet on gate but I as someone who doesn't do it I was like oh you can probably just go and
[29:06] SPEAKER_01: bet anywhere so I think it's really interesting that some things have been legal and some things
[29:12] SPEAKER_01: haven't and it sounds like this is becoming a case of eventually all sports betting will be legalized
[29:18] SPEAKER_01: and destigmatized and open up a whole whack possibilities in different ways as a result yeah people
[29:27] SPEAKER_02: in Ontario are betting it's like not a super career number but they're betting over a billion dollars
[29:31] SPEAKER_02: a year offshore on sports betting currently already that is wild so the government is just like well
[29:39] SPEAKER_02: why don't we regulate it and then tax it a little bit and that makes sense that's what you should do
[29:43] SPEAKER_01: so out of curiosity and you may not have an answer for this I recognize that yeah what is what
[29:48] SPEAKER_01: would be the appeal or the the reason to if I if I'm already betting offshore and I have this whole
[29:55] SPEAKER_01: thing because this is easy like why would why would I change that it's not super easy so like
[30:01] SPEAKER_02: what happens is most markets are like that where you are betting offshore the thing that's the most
[30:05] SPEAKER_02: challenging about betting is getting your deposit money in and out when it's in a quasi gray zone
[30:10] SPEAKER_02: which is what it is in Ontario right now it's hard for TD bank to you know it's not the easiest
[30:15] SPEAKER_02: thing to get your wire transfer your whatever out to your sports betting will have some all short
[30:21] SPEAKER_02: sports book from your like TD bank like it's gonna be a little clunky yeah so it makes that smoother
[30:27] SPEAKER_02: and way easier and like the consumer experience way better and then from a sports book perspective
[30:32] SPEAKER_02: you can market legally because there's a reason why currently in Ontario you don't see
[30:36] SPEAKER_02: you don't get spam with sports betting out so you're like driving on the highway or doing whatever
[30:39] SPEAKER_02: it's not to say that's what's coming but it's just it will be able to be legally marketed like
[30:43] SPEAKER_02: other consumer products in the province whereas right now you can't market it that way
[30:48] SPEAKER_01: right okay that makes sense yeah also i'm looking forward to driving on the highway and being
[30:53] SPEAKER_02: spammed with sports betting you will you will it's gonna be yeah ask people in New York how they're
[31:01] SPEAKER_02: feeling about the recent thing because it just thing lies in New York like a few weeks ago and it is
[31:05] SPEAKER_02: like it's i'm hearing it's a little insane there what people are like every paid out on your
[31:10] SPEAKER_02: Instagram and Twitter if you're in New York or if you're sitting in a taxi those little videos
[31:14] SPEAKER_02: that are running it's like literally just sports money right now i don't think it's gonna be like
[31:18] SPEAKER_02: that i i don't think it's gonna be like that here because the government and the regular appetype
[31:23] SPEAKER_02: is a little different here than it is the US i don't think it's gonna be as bad but i'd say that by
[31:26] SPEAKER_02: the end of the year people are gonna start to see a a lot more sports betting answer yeah
[31:31] SPEAKER_01: yeah which is basically zero yeah yeah super interesting i appreciate the context and i
[31:36] SPEAKER_01: appreciate the information because i think it's interesting i think it's interesting for you know
[31:40] SPEAKER_01: listeners and our viewers of this um i'm cute before we wrap up i always like to say is there anything
[31:47] SPEAKER_01: that we didn't get to that you wanted to to talk about or emphasize that we did speak about because
[31:52] SPEAKER_01: i think it's you know it's your time and we talked i mean i appreciate you sharing we spoke about a
[31:57] SPEAKER_01: lot of different things so is there anything that you want to leave our listeners with before we
[32:01] SPEAKER_02: wrap this up i'd say for maybe just for people that want to be entrepreneurs that are listening to
[32:09] SPEAKER_02: this or looking to start this this that i discounted at the beginning and i think a lot of people say
[32:13] SPEAKER_02: this which is like how you take care of yourself like personally and your energy levels and
[32:18] SPEAKER_02: is always gonna know how to choose a former like prime minister of Singapore and Singapore is
[32:24] SPEAKER_02: like an interesting case study also and like commercial success is like a country that i recommend
[32:28] SPEAKER_02: people read history about anyways the guy who kind of built it from the you know 40s and 50s up
[32:33] SPEAKER_02: to today is a guy named Lee Kuan Yew he's like a very well-known kind of politician statesman
[32:37] SPEAKER_02: he wrote a biography he talked about how he took care of himself and like his body himself physically
[32:44] SPEAKER_02: how he prioritized that at the beginning and that spoke to him so much longevity because he was one
[32:48] SPEAKER_02: of those guys just come going and going forever basically and an algae he used that i liked and i
[32:53] SPEAKER_02: tell people who overworked himself this in the company as well it's a bit of an ultimate analogy
[32:58] SPEAKER_02: but basically saying that you know if you have a farm and you got a horse that is telling your
[33:02] SPEAKER_02: fields you know you take care of that horse extremely well if you speak to people in rural
[33:07] SPEAKER_02: environments that have an animal that is responsible for like you know a lot of their livelihood you
[33:11] SPEAKER_02: take care of that animal really well you make sure it's you know horses are good it's hubs are clean
[33:14] SPEAKER_02: it doesn't get overworked like it doesn't strance muscles because your tired livelihoods to that
[33:18] SPEAKER_02: you like really really take care of that animal like it's truly well you make sure it's rested
[33:22] SPEAKER_02: it eats well it's like health is perfect that's you when you're building a business you are the horse
[33:28] SPEAKER_02: so you know you've got to you you've got to really take care of yourself because doing
[33:36] SPEAKER_02: like performance oriented like high intensity work for a short period of time having taken care
[33:42] SPEAKER_02: of yourself and slept well and ate well and you had some release fell for your brains you can't
[33:46] SPEAKER_02: be out all the time guaranteed like it took me a while to learn this because I was very much work
[33:50] SPEAKER_02: like 18 hours a day kind of mindset at the beginning but it's different now you will actually get
[33:55] SPEAKER_02: way more work done and be higher output and do better work at like 10 to 12 hours of like high
[34:01] SPEAKER_02: performance work where you maintain yourself then pushing for 18 hours just for like you know
[34:07] SPEAKER_02: the sake of it because like you think you should because you saw some guy on the internet that was
[34:11] SPEAKER_02: doing it it's just that's a really hard lesson and it's hard to convince yourself of but I would
[34:16] SPEAKER_02: do that from the beginning and you'll see results like really really quickly so yeah I appreciate
[34:21] SPEAKER_01: and I appreciate that thank you for sharing and I think it's a you know it's the
[34:28] SPEAKER_01: opposite of the hustle message that we get so often which is just like drive power push more
[34:33] SPEAKER_01: do and it's like well actually study show us really consistently the people can only be actually
[34:38] SPEAKER_01: productive for five hours a day so why are we telling people to eat?
[34:43] SPEAKER_02: They show like when you're on if you do if you have six hours of sleep or less for more than two
[34:48] SPEAKER_02: three days or your mental acuity is that of being drunk? Yep. Yeah so don't do it. Yeah that's
[34:54] SPEAKER_01: worth yeah so everyone take this as the note to stop doing that and actually take care of yourself. Yeah
[35:01] SPEAKER_01: I think that's great and I appreciate you sharing that Steven it's been really lovely speaking with
[35:06] SPEAKER_01: you I appreciate the time that you've taken to talk with us today and for getting into all of that
[35:11] SPEAKER_01: thank you and for all of our listeners thanks for listening to Canis podcast like comment and
[35:16] SPEAKER_01: subscribe to all our channels to get the latest podcasts from entrepreneurs across Canada.
