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TRANSCRIPTION WITH SPEAKERS
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[00:00] SPEAKER_01: It's Toronto's podcast on the Canada's podcast network.
[00:06] SPEAKER_01: Hi everyone, I'm Sling Williams, an international speaker and business strategist and I'd like
[00:11] SPEAKER_01: to welcome you to Toronto's podcast.
[00:14] SPEAKER_01: We are part of the Canada's podcast network, your source for great insights for entrepreneurs
[00:18] SPEAKER_01: from across Canada.
[00:20] SPEAKER_01: I'm here today with Ryan Petromo.
[00:23] SPEAKER_01: After having worked in almost every area of the retail industry, Ryan has a very unique
[00:27] SPEAKER_01: understanding of the landscape.
[00:30] SPEAKER_01: His focus is on using e-commerce to grow customers, build relationships, increase revenues and
[00:35] SPEAKER_01: profitability.
[00:36] SPEAKER_01: Thanks for joining us today, Ryan.
[00:38] SPEAKER_00: No problem, thanks for having me.
[00:40] SPEAKER_01: So I'd love to know a little bit more about what you do, what you're kind of working
[00:45] SPEAKER_01: on these days.
[00:48] SPEAKER_00: Well, this is a very interesting time to be answering that question.
[00:52] SPEAKER_01: I thought we might start there, right?
[00:54] SPEAKER_01: It's kind of a, it's a unique, and I mean, it's an even more unique landscape.
[00:57] SPEAKER_01: The new usual right now.
[00:59] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[00:59] SPEAKER_00: So what do I do?
[01:01] SPEAKER_00: I, for the past X number of years, for the past seven years, I've been working with a
[01:10] SPEAKER_00: variety of companies, but the sweet spot center of the bullseye, our retail companies, ranging
[01:16] SPEAKER_00: from sort of like SMEs, so the small to medium size, all the way up to, you know, large
[01:22] SPEAKER_00: global or national brands on how to effectively integrate an e-commerce sort of sales channel
[01:29] SPEAKER_00: into their business.
[01:31] SPEAKER_00: So the reason that that is interesting, particularly now, is given me and just to speak very specifically
[01:40] SPEAKER_00: from a geographic standpoint in Ontario, we've declared a state of emergency for a while.
[01:45] SPEAKER_00: So all non-essential businesses have closed down, which includes the large bulk of retailers.
[01:52] SPEAKER_00: Some people in the retail sector like grocers and stuff like that, they've been deemed
[01:55] SPEAKER_00: essential, but, you know, if you're selling sweaters or things like that, you aren't allowed
[02:02] SPEAKER_00: to be open, essentially, and serving the public.
[02:07] SPEAKER_00: But you can still, it's a gray area because e-commerce is still technically allowed.
[02:13] SPEAKER_00: So navigating through that is an interesting piece.
[02:18] SPEAKER_00: So what have I been working on now?
[02:20] SPEAKER_00: I have a couple of clients right now that my agency is working with that are basically
[02:25] SPEAKER_00: trying to work with what we've got given the current state of things.
[02:32] SPEAKER_01: So I'm going to ask this question, I don't know if there's an answer to it, but what have
[02:38] SPEAKER_01: you with how things have shifted in the past state of emergency number of weeks, three
[02:45] SPEAKER_01: or four weeks or whatever?
[02:46] SPEAKER_01: I don't, I feel like I'm in quarantine forever, I'm not 100% sure.
[02:49] SPEAKER_01: The past weeks, have you seen anything changing or shifting with the e-commerce space
[02:56] SPEAKER_01: or with the online world in general?
[02:58] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, pretty much.
[02:59] SPEAKER_00: I mean, if we want to talk about e-commerce and if we want to talk about online specifically,
[03:04] SPEAKER_00: just from an online standpoint, everyone is overloaded.
[03:08] SPEAKER_00: So I'll use a couple examples.
[03:11] SPEAKER_00: I have one client right now that we are at the beginning of March.
[03:16] SPEAKER_00: So when everything was, you know, in the before times as it were, we were, we plan to spin
[03:22] SPEAKER_00: up some Google ad campaigns.
[03:24] SPEAKER_00: When I offered out a hitch was great timing because we, that client specifically ended
[03:32] SPEAKER_00: up getting a ton of traffic for their website.
[03:34] SPEAKER_00: So we were able to do a test that would normally take at least a month in three weeks, at
[03:42] SPEAKER_00: least a month probably a month and a half.
[03:44] SPEAKER_00: We did it in half the time just because of the amount of traffic that had ramped up.
[03:48] SPEAKER_00: We re-jigged some campaigns for April and we had also installed sort of an app onto
[03:56] SPEAKER_00: the site that was untested, unfortunately.
[03:59] SPEAKER_00: And that flagged the site as having malware and Google kept disapproving the ads.
[04:06] SPEAKER_00: So all that big lead in is to say, Google's a bit of a bear to deal with, but because of
[04:14] SPEAKER_00: everything with COVID-19, all of their support was completely pushed back.
[04:18] SPEAKER_00: So we've now had to escalate this.
[04:20] SPEAKER_00: It's taken a week and a half, two weeks of escalating the issue and we're still not even
[04:27] SPEAKER_00: close to having an answer.
[04:29] SPEAKER_00: Facebook ads, same thing like Facebook is now hyper sensitized to anything political
[04:34] SPEAKER_00: out there.
[04:35] SPEAKER_00: Different client is a media company, so they're kind of business as usual.
[04:41] SPEAKER_00: They broke a story before the CBC did.
[04:45] SPEAKER_00: Just excellent timing, good reporting, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
[04:49] SPEAKER_00: We tried to put some money behind that specific ad and it got shut down.
[04:56] SPEAKER_00: Because we haven't jumped through the Facebook hoops to be talking about political things.
[05:01] SPEAKER_00: So there are now more hoops to jump through and there are more stringent on how complicated
[05:07] SPEAKER_00: those hoops are.
[05:08] SPEAKER_00: So that's the state of the internet that I've seen so far.
[05:11] SPEAKER_01: Right.
[05:12] SPEAKER_00: The state of e-commerce, everyone is in a scramble, basically.
[05:18] SPEAKER_00: If you want to talk high-level e-commerce, delivery apps are getting hammered right now.
[05:24] SPEAKER_00: I had a very bad Instagram experience and it took two weeks of emailing support literally
[05:32] SPEAKER_00: every day.
[05:34] SPEAKER_00: And getting no response, I finally took to Twitter and they got back to me like that.
[05:38] SPEAKER_00: And the answer that they gave me was very standard and I wasn't super satisfied from it.
[05:44] SPEAKER_00: Now, I get it.
[05:45] SPEAKER_00: Instagram sites are two-sided marketplace, which is tricky.
[05:48] SPEAKER_00: But yeah, that went like my personal experience went with that, went from
[05:53] SPEAKER_00: I'll email support.
[05:54] SPEAKER_00: I'll get an automatic message back saying that they're overwhelmed, tried calling the
[05:59] SPEAKER_00: support line.
[06:00] SPEAKER_00: It went from a wait time of 101 minutes in the afternoon to a wait time at midnight of 109 minutes
[06:08] SPEAKER_00: to a couple days later, they shut down phone support completely.
[06:12] SPEAKER_00: So it took two weeks to of that and then taking to Twitter to finally get an answer.
[06:17] SPEAKER_00: So, manufacturing is ramping up.
[06:20] SPEAKER_00: Like, there's a couple small shops in my neighborhood on my street that are just like
[06:28] SPEAKER_00: clothing retailers.
[06:29] SPEAKER_00: They're shut down restaurants or shut down and they're relying on
[06:32] SPEAKER_00: Uber Eats and DoorDash and things like that.
[06:35] SPEAKER_00: And there's videos coming out saying, hey, this is why my personal favorite Mexican restaurant
[06:41] SPEAKER_00: decided to close completely and try and weather the storm because it's not worth it.
[06:47] SPEAKER_00: For them to do that because of the margin that they take using those apps.
[06:52] SPEAKER_00: So everything's shifting basically, long story short.
[06:56] SPEAKER_01: I'm not surprised.
[06:57] SPEAKER_01: I just I was curious what your perspective or what your experience with it had been
[07:03] SPEAKER_01: being in the industry, right?
[07:05] SPEAKER_01: Like, I mean, we're in a circumstance we haven't seen before, right?
[07:07] SPEAKER_01: So lots of industries are are affected and I would imagine e-commerce like a lot of other
[07:12] SPEAKER_01: industries.
[07:12] SPEAKER_01: There's some upsides to it because I'm sure there's people at home who are like,
[07:16] SPEAKER_01: well, I could use that sweater and I got nothing better to do than to buy it right now and
[07:20] SPEAKER_01: haven't sent to me.
[07:22] SPEAKER_01: So there's definitely some upsides for sure I would imagine and some challenges to your points.
[07:27] SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
[07:27] SPEAKER_01: So I appreciate you sharing that.
[07:28] SPEAKER_00: And one thing that I'll go through, I can send you this after.
[07:34] SPEAKER_00: This is a sort of a list of
[07:39] SPEAKER_00: that was put together by a company called Stackline at the US of the 100 fastest growing
[07:44] SPEAKER_00: and declining categories in e-commerce.
[07:47] SPEAKER_00: Unsurprising, the disposable glove category is up by 670%.
[07:52] SPEAKER_01: Sounds about right.
[07:54] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that sounds about right.
[07:55] SPEAKER_00: And just coming at it number two, I did not expect to see this.
[07:59] SPEAKER_00: Bread machines, 650 to percent.
[08:03] SPEAKER_01: I wish I could say I'm surprised by that, but given the number of people on just my friends
[08:07] SPEAKER_01: list on Facebook who have taken to making bread and the yeast shortage we are experiencing
[08:13] SPEAKER_01: in Ontario, not super surprised.
[08:16] SPEAKER_00: Right.
[08:17] SPEAKER_00: And the first loser, luggage is in suitcase down 77%.
[08:21] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Tim, again, this is right in line.
[08:24] SPEAKER_01: And yeah, if you send the link, we'll put it in the show notes for sure just for people who are
[08:28] SPEAKER_01: curious.
[08:29] SPEAKER_01: So I'd love to shift gears a little bit and talk about you and your experience
[08:33] SPEAKER_01: becoming an entrepreneur.
[08:35] SPEAKER_01: Can you tell me a little bit about what made you decide to start your agency and you know,
[08:39] SPEAKER_01: even some of your background to getting into it?
[08:41] SPEAKER_00: No problem.
[08:42] SPEAKER_00: We will harken back to the odd 2000s, whatever it was back when I was in university.
[08:50] SPEAKER_00: So this was way back in the day.
[08:53] SPEAKER_00: And originally was on the teacher's, the teacher track with the goal of being a high school history
[09:00] SPEAKER_00: teacher.
[09:01] SPEAKER_00: And the reason behind it was because I liked, history is very, history is very data driven.
[09:06] SPEAKER_00: I can now look back on it and realize these things.
[09:09] SPEAKER_00: And it's great to show cause and effect.
[09:13] SPEAKER_00: And I really had a good experience in high school just seeing all the dots get connected
[09:19] SPEAKER_00: and was like, oh, this is super cool.
[09:21] SPEAKER_00: And history doesn't, I mean, there's the idea that like,
[09:25] SPEAKER_00: history is written by the victor.
[09:26] SPEAKER_00: But for the most part, there's a lot of facts that don't change.
[09:30] SPEAKER_00: So you're dealing with data points that you can sort of use to plot the path effects.
[09:36] SPEAKER_00: Halfway through wasn't super into it, sort of changed my mind a bit.
[09:40] SPEAKER_00: Really got into sort of a lot of like Facebook and Instagram wasn't even a thing yet.
[09:48] SPEAKER_00: Twitter was like, these things were picking up and it was like, okay, how does all this
[09:53] SPEAKER_00: interplay?
[09:54] SPEAKER_00: Having a, you know, a decent understanding of this, all this emerging digital stuff really gave
[10:01] SPEAKER_00: way to sort of like a sniffing around the marketing side of things.
[10:04] SPEAKER_00: But back then, they didn't really have courses like that.
[10:09] SPEAKER_00: And I had gone to Western, University of Western Ontario.
[10:14] SPEAKER_00: Because they were both in the same building, they did this weird combination of the journalism
[10:20] SPEAKER_00: department and the computer science department because they shared a building and made this like
[10:25] SPEAKER_00: faculty that was called media and information and technology, which is just weird now, which
[10:31] SPEAKER_00: eventually became sort of like a more digital focused program.
[10:36] SPEAKER_00: So I was sort of like at the beginning of that and it was super interesting.
[10:39] SPEAKER_00: After sort of switching around and like attempting to refocus my goal,
[10:44] SPEAKER_00: ended up finishing my degree and was just like, well, I guess I'll get a job.
[10:50] SPEAKER_00: I don't know what I want to get as a career job.
[10:52] SPEAKER_00: So I'll just get like four part time jobs, which was exhausting.
[10:57] SPEAKER_00: One of which was with a retail company because I knew someone and it was easy and blah, blah, blah,
[11:02] SPEAKER_00: blah, blah. I'm good to talk to people.
[11:04] SPEAKER_00: So that retail company that I sort of started with like as a part time weekends type of gig
[11:10] SPEAKER_00: in university, I ended up being with that company for eight years, opening a second store in London
[11:16] SPEAKER_00: and then promotion offer, promotion offer, promotion offer until finally there was one that was
[11:21] SPEAKER_00: just like, hey, we need to start selling things off our website.
[11:25] SPEAKER_00: We like you.
[11:26] SPEAKER_00: Did you want to do this?
[11:28] SPEAKER_00: And it was sort of like, well, I don't really know exactly what that consists of and I don't have
[11:33] SPEAKER_00: any like technical jobs, but I can figure it out.
[11:35] SPEAKER_00: So that was sort of my entry point into e-commerce in retail apparel back in 2008.
[11:42] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[11:43] SPEAKER_00: And then ran that for a while and that was Shopify was just sort of like it was coming to become a
[11:50] SPEAKER_00: thing like they had been selling snowboards and it was growing out a little bit, but it was very
[11:55] SPEAKER_00: not what it is now.
[11:57] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[11:57] SPEAKER_00: So yeah, so grew that out.
[11:59] SPEAKER_00: Eventually found myself in Toronto and commuting from Toronto to St.
[12:04] SPEAKER_00: Kaplan's every day was exhausting.
[12:06] SPEAKER_00: So decided to decide it was time to move on.
[12:08] SPEAKER_00: I think I'd done, I felt like I'd done what I needed to do with that and bounced to a company that
[12:16] SPEAKER_00: was just in Brantan.
[12:18] SPEAKER_00: Unbelievably closer.
[12:19] SPEAKER_00: Well, life changing move, it was great until the business model of the company, which for the record
[12:26] SPEAKER_00: had fairly deep-locketed investors wasn't sustainable and they had wanted to sort of reignite their
[12:35] SPEAKER_00: the re-commerce.
[12:36] SPEAKER_00: That's why they brought me in.
[12:37] SPEAKER_00: And it was just like, yeah, we need to do some downsizing.
[12:41] SPEAKER_00: So that sort of happened that I was like, well, I think I'll I'm going to take the package that
[12:45] SPEAKER_00: they're offering and then figure out what my next move is.
[12:48] SPEAKER_00: So at that point, I was kind of like, well, do I find another job in this field that's not exactly
[12:57] SPEAKER_00: solid now.
[12:58] SPEAKER_00: It's still very floating around and like it's primarily project managers and like development people.
[13:06] SPEAKER_00: So and then they smash those people together and try and get stuff done.
[13:10] SPEAKER_00: So do I do that or or what?
[13:13] SPEAKER_00: And I remember going out for friend of mine's birthday party,
[13:17] SPEAKER_00: way out in the East End at a Brevarian restaurant.
[13:20] SPEAKER_00: And I got picked up by someone that was driving and we ended up picking up another friend of theirs.
[13:27] SPEAKER_00: And Julie and I sat were in the back seat of this car driving from like Blur and Landsdown to like
[13:31] SPEAKER_00: Hayley Lincoln and Kingston Road.
[13:33] SPEAKER_00: So we had some time to chat.
[13:35] SPEAKER_00: Turns out Julie and her husband Rob owned a skate shop that was on college street.
[13:42] SPEAKER_00: And the company that I was working for before the apparel company was a
[13:47] SPEAKER_00: active wear like skate surf type of branded company.
[13:53] SPEAKER_00: So Julie and I knew a bunch of the same people like all of our vendors.
[13:56] SPEAKER_00: It's like, oh, I know Sean.
[13:58] SPEAKER_00: Oh, I know that guy.
[13:59] SPEAKER_00: I love blah, blah, blah.
[13:59] SPEAKER_00: And they were they were like literally the classic.
[14:02] SPEAKER_00: I mean, they weren't along pop yet.
[14:05] SPEAKER_00: But after they had kids, they definitely became a mom and pop shop type of thing.
[14:09] SPEAKER_00: And Julie was also her day job while Rob ran the store was she was a UX designer.
[14:17] SPEAKER_00: So she got a bunch of stuff.
[14:19] SPEAKER_00: She knew how things worked.
[14:21] SPEAKER_00: So yeah, she's like, they were they were using they were just having a really
[14:27] SPEAKER_00: difficult time trying to get their website up.
[14:30] SPEAKER_00: And Julie, the problem was is that Julie knew there's a bunch of stuff that Julie knew
[14:35] SPEAKER_00: because she's in that industry.
[14:37] SPEAKER_00: But then there's this whole bucket of stuff that she's just like, I have I can figure it out,
[14:43] SPEAKER_00: but like, I don't know what this all this stuff is.
[14:46] SPEAKER_00: And it that's when sort of the light bulb went off of, oh, I have a whole bunch of skill sets
[14:54] SPEAKER_00: that are exactly applicable to this situation.
[14:57] SPEAKER_00: And then I met with Julie like then Julie and I exchanged info.
[15:01] SPEAKER_00: I met up with Julie and Rob like a week or two later and then
[15:05] SPEAKER_00: the rest is history.
[15:07] SPEAKER_00: And that's sort of where it started.
[15:10] SPEAKER_00: And while I have some mixed feelings about Shopify in general,
[15:14] SPEAKER_00: they've helped normalize this in the market.
[15:18] SPEAKER_00: And it took me a while to sort of get to where I am now.
[15:21] SPEAKER_00: Like there was there was a lot of time of like getting really good at doing groceries at the
[15:25] SPEAKER_00: dollar store because the cult like the companies weren't there yet.
[15:32] SPEAKER_00: And doing that, doing a lot of networking, meeting a lot of people, building those relationships
[15:37] SPEAKER_00: to then eventually it just started working.
[15:40] SPEAKER_00: Like it just hit.
[15:41] SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, oh, okay, this is kind of what I was hoping for, but I had no
[15:48] SPEAKER_00: lighthouse like I had no light to focus on to and I thought I was moving in the right direction.
[15:53] SPEAKER_00: And yeah, turns out I was.
[15:56] SPEAKER_00: How's that for a giant ramble?
[15:58] SPEAKER_01: But I think but you brave a really important point that there are times where you have an experience
[16:06] SPEAKER_01: and you know, often working for someone else, but you know that things are heading in a particular
[16:11] SPEAKER_01: way in the industry in general, but you're ahead of the curve.
[16:16] SPEAKER_01: And it takes a while for things to catch up.
[16:19] SPEAKER_01: And it's not, I think for entrepreneurs especially that's a that's a more common story
[16:24] SPEAKER_01: than we often talk about because you are seeing something that is going to grow and be a possibility.
[16:31] SPEAKER_01: And you know, you're kind of waiting for everyone else to catch up and making things work as best
[16:36] SPEAKER_01: you can until that point in time.
[16:38] SPEAKER_01: And then the convergence happens.
[16:40] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's sticking to your guns.
[16:44] SPEAKER_00: But it's mainly it's sticking to your guns not necessarily in the face of everyone telling you
[16:51] SPEAKER_00: that it's a bad idea because there's that too, right?
[16:54] SPEAKER_00: Like the convergence doesn't always happen or you can't sustain yourself until the convergence happens.
[17:01] SPEAKER_00: And you know, in that period before things took off, yeah, I was applying for jobs like I had
[17:08] SPEAKER_00: I ended up working for a friend of mine that was doing a lifestyle brand for dogs.
[17:19] SPEAKER_00: And yeah, that was just like it's a startup.
[17:23] SPEAKER_00: I would love a paycheck. This would be great.
[17:26] SPEAKER_00: It's also because this is what I enjoy doing.
[17:31] SPEAKER_00: But it's realizing that I also very much enjoy trisket's.
[17:37] SPEAKER_00: However, if that's what I did as a job, I would not look the way that I do type of things.
[17:45] SPEAKER_00: So it's finding that balance of I really like this.
[17:49] SPEAKER_00: And this is a good side hustle.
[17:50] SPEAKER_00: I don't know how long I can last until the convergence happens.
[17:55] SPEAKER_00: I was really fortunate that I had a family that like my mom was super supportive.
[18:01] SPEAKER_00: And friends and colleagues that were also supportive and trying to push me in the right direction
[18:07] SPEAKER_00: even though I wasn't always able to hear what they were talking about.
[18:10] SPEAKER_00: But they could see they're like, oh, this guy's super into this stuff.
[18:14] SPEAKER_00: That goes a long way.
[18:16] SPEAKER_00: And he's into it for like, because it's he just thinks it's neat.
[18:20] SPEAKER_01: So I want to ask a question about that.
[18:23] SPEAKER_01: Did in that time period, this is going to be a two-par question.
[18:27] SPEAKER_01: So the first one I had is in that time period, did anyone give you advice or say anything to you
[18:32] SPEAKER_01: that, you know, however light let's say years later still resonates or you remember specifically?
[18:38] SPEAKER_01: That would be my first question.
[18:40] SPEAKER_01: And then my second question is going to be what was the biggest challenge for you
[18:45] SPEAKER_01: in making this transition into entrepreneurship?
[18:48] SPEAKER_00: Short answers, yes, to both.
[18:50] SPEAKER_00: Yes, the second one doesn't work.
[18:51] SPEAKER_00: Yes, definitely the first one.
[18:53] SPEAKER_00: So I didn't know I didn't set out to start an agency.
[18:57] SPEAKER_00: And also I say the word agency, but it's like an agency.
[19:02] SPEAKER_00: Which is basically just I think there was one at one point I described it as like a cabal
[19:08] SPEAKER_00: of professional weirdos that just are super super it like super into what they're doing.
[19:15] SPEAKER_00: Like my SEO person, she just really digs Google search console.
[19:20] SPEAKER_00: That's it.
[19:20] SPEAKER_00: She thinks it's like she likes how she can like manipulate stuff in it.
[19:24] SPEAKER_00: So yeah, professional weirdos.
[19:26] SPEAKER_00: It's great.
[19:26] SPEAKER_00: But the one piece of advice, and I don't know that I wouldn't necessarily say that this is a universal
[19:34] SPEAKER_00: piece of advice, but it could be was way back when when I was a co-founder of a
[19:42] SPEAKER_00: online run coaching company, one of my my other co-founder was always telling me that I need to
[19:52] SPEAKER_00: produce more content because like I need to start putting myself out there more was basically it.
[20:00] SPEAKER_00: That was one of the things that I couldn't hear because I didn't understand my value.
[20:04] SPEAKER_00: So I'm like, well, not knowing what my value is, I'm like, why do people, what am I going to say?
[20:10] SPEAKER_00: Who am I to be telling people things?
[20:14] SPEAKER_00: Snap cut to now.
[20:15] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's I blog ideas about the current situation that are just that people just don't there's
[20:23] SPEAKER_00: stuff that people either they know they don't know or they don't know they don't know, which is the
[20:29] SPEAKER_00: really tricky part. So yeah, so that was that was pretty much it like building content, trying to build
[20:36] SPEAKER_00: evergreen content that keeps growing. But yeah, that that was the one thing that I can look back on
[20:43] SPEAKER_00: now and I look back on things with with minimal to no regrets because I couldn't have jumped the
[20:50] SPEAKER_00: line in the path I had to go through the entire path to get to where I am now. But yeah, that's one
[20:56] SPEAKER_00: thing that I look back on now where I'm just like, oh, right, it's knowing what my value is.
[21:01] SPEAKER_00: That was number one, but number two, an ideal with this now with clients, especially in e-commerce,
[21:10] SPEAKER_00: knowing who your customer is and isn't and knowing that someone could look like your customer,
[21:16] SPEAKER_00: but they aren't. Some people really like mushrooms. Some mushrooms will kill you. Other mushrooms will
[21:23] SPEAKER_00: give you a very interesting experience and other mushrooms you can just toss on a pizza because
[21:29] SPEAKER_00: they have nutritional value, but they're all mushrooms. Are all dogs or animals, but not all animals or
[21:35] SPEAKER_00: dogs. So this comes into play with, you know, you could I could be talking to a client and they could
[21:43] SPEAKER_00: sound really into everything I'm saying. Yeah, that sounds great. Oh my god, we definitely need to do
[21:48] SPEAKER_00: this. Yes, 100% absolutely. The other lesson is especially when it comes to sales is you can
[21:56] SPEAKER_00: get the sale 90% of the way by telling people all the awesome things and then there's that extra
[22:01] SPEAKER_00: 10% where it's like, and this is what it's going to cost. How do you feel about paying that?
[22:06] SPEAKER_00: It's figuring out that how to do that 10% that you always do it and don't end up working for free
[22:13] SPEAKER_00: is I think anyone that's an entrepreneur has done that. But yeah, once you nail that 10% and you
[22:22] SPEAKER_00: know the person that you're talking to comes back with like, oh, can you do like 75% less than that?
[22:30] SPEAKER_00: Type of thing like it'll cost a hundred bucks just to use an easy number. Oh, can you do it like
[22:36] SPEAKER_00: for 25? It's like, oh, so you're the type of company that I could work with, but I can't work,
[22:44] SPEAKER_00: but that's you're not my customer. Right. Right. So I have to respectfully decline and say, that's the
[22:51] SPEAKER_00: block to you. There are some resources that you could use to do this yourself because you're not
[22:57] SPEAKER_00: going to find someone to do what I'm talking about doing for that price until things change and
[23:02] SPEAKER_00: then maybe later once they realize they can't do themselves and maybe some things change from a
[23:07] SPEAKER_01: revenue position, then they can re-approach. Well, I think those are two really good lessons to anyone
[23:12] SPEAKER_01: who's listening who is an entrepreneur or early stage entrepreneur, which is one, know your value,
[23:17] SPEAKER_01: and two, actually know who your customer is and isn't. And I think we spend a lot of time and,
[23:23] SPEAKER_01: well, I mean, I've done this with clients. I've worked with where you get really clear on who your
[23:27] SPEAKER_01: avatar is, whatever you want to call it, that where you're getting whatever the language is, but
[23:31] SPEAKER_01: this is my customer, this is who I work, this is my ideal client, whatever it is. But in order to
[23:38] SPEAKER_01: make that really effective and in order to make it really focused, you also have to know who it
[23:43] SPEAKER_01: isn't and what your boundaries are inside of that, which is a piece of what you're saying that I'm
[23:48] SPEAKER_01: hearing, right, which is like, this is my boundary. If someone comes back and says, can you do this
[23:53] SPEAKER_01: for $25 instead of $100? You can also say, here's what you can, here's what I can do for $25. It's not
[24:00] SPEAKER_01: it's this. If you want to do this, this is what $25 will give you. If you want to do that, then
[24:05] SPEAKER_01: this is not for me. And knowing what your boundary is, when you know your value, you're not afraid to
[24:10] SPEAKER_00: state what that boundary is. And I'm currently in the process of sort of like, um,
[24:16] SPEAKER_00: updating on this, but a lot of like that $100 value is like, cool, that's me coming in and doing it
[24:23] SPEAKER_00: and getting it set up and boom, because it's, I know I know things and I know how long it's going to take me.
[24:29] SPEAKER_00: That specific pivot to $25 is like, you can do it and we can work together and I can sort of like
[24:36] SPEAKER_00: be a touch point for you. How about that? Right. That's a better pivot and at least from my
[24:41] SPEAKER_00: standpoint, from a scaling stance, I'm actually trying to pivot into the $25 packages more
[24:50] SPEAKER_00: because I and my hands only have so much time. The other thing I would just quickly say to your
[24:57] SPEAKER_00: point about the avatars is that because the way that you said what you said was very, um, well put,
[25:05] SPEAKER_00: it's also recognizing that anything that's an avatar is basically an assumption. You've made a bunch
[25:12] SPEAKER_00: of assumptions, which you need to, to assemble that avatar. And now you need to test it. So you're
[25:18] SPEAKER_00: perpetually testing it. Yes, you're not going to know who your customer is until you get a customer
[25:23] SPEAKER_00: and then it's like, oh, I did not think that would be my customer, but apparently it is.
[25:28] SPEAKER_01: Well, it's, it's funny. I've worked a lot of startups and one of the things that because so much of
[25:33] SPEAKER_01: it is based on assumptions, they're like, here's the, here's the thing I've created. Here's
[25:38] SPEAKER_01: what my ideal client is. When I've asked people, they've been really excited about it. And I always
[25:42] SPEAKER_01: asked the question, did you ask them if they would pay for it? And how much they would pay for us?
[25:46] SPEAKER_01: Because it is just because someone is like, that's a great idea. It doesn't mean that they're
[25:52] SPEAKER_01: a customer who would pay for what you're putting out to the world. And it's, it's, it's like such a simple
[25:59] SPEAKER_01: shift of a question, but we don't do it because we run an assumptions. We assume that if someone says
[26:05] SPEAKER_01: that's a great idea, that if we were to say, cool, that'll be $2,000, they'd be like, sweet. Here's
[26:10] SPEAKER_00: my money, but that's not, it's not how it works. Well, and that's that 10% I was talking about before.
[26:15] SPEAKER_00: Same thing goes, there was a point where I was very, very loosely shopping around the idea of
[26:23] SPEAKER_00: getting investment on a project that I was, was more actively spinning up the time. It's now actually
[26:30] SPEAKER_00: residing completely in my giant right book. But yeah, it was like, it's the same thing with asking
[26:36] SPEAKER_00: for money from investors. See exact same process. It's just like, that sounds interesting. Cool.
[26:41] SPEAKER_00: How much would you give me for it? Nothing. Oh, okay. I can say all bunch of things that sound
[26:47] SPEAKER_01: interesting. So I want to be mindful of time. And I like to, because I am a book nerd, as you can see
[26:53] SPEAKER_01: from my bookshelf behind me, I was like to ask this question to kind of wrap things up. And that is,
[26:57] SPEAKER_01: is there anything that you're reading that you would recommend to our listeners or viewers? Slash,
[27:03] SPEAKER_01: is there something that you have read that was really impactful for you that you would recommend?
[27:07] SPEAKER_00: I love that you use slash to basically do a two part question. Yeah, well, I could be one,
[27:12] SPEAKER_01: listen, you don't have to answer both. My default is always the book that for me was most impactful
[27:18] SPEAKER_01: when I'm asked a question like this. It's not necessarily what I'm reading in the moment,
[27:20] SPEAKER_01: but it's what's been most impactful. So it could be either or. So I'm going to flag a really
[27:28] SPEAKER_00: weird point that I don't know a lot of people talk about. But it's the venn diagram breakdown of
[27:38] SPEAKER_00: entrepreneurs and people with ADHD. So I bring that up as someone that's that's currently in the
[27:46] SPEAKER_00: process of being tested for that. It's really difficult for me to slow my brain down enough to read.
[27:52] SPEAKER_00: That's fair. Yeah, like to sit down and fully process something. So yeah, so that's, and that's
[27:59] SPEAKER_00: something that, you know, on my off time, I'm acknowledging and working on because it's all always
[28:06] SPEAKER_00: go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, being able to do that is great. But it's sometimes
[28:13] SPEAKER_00: a challenge to drop out of that gear to just sit down and read something. So if that resonates with
[28:20] SPEAKER_00: anyone, you're not the only one. But in thinking about it too, probably the last book I read that
[28:27] SPEAKER_00: had a giant impact on me is not a business book. It is based on the based on some of the artifacts.
[28:36] SPEAKER_00: I see in that bookshelf, find you. I think it might be something that would resonate with you.
[28:39] SPEAKER_00: It is a book called The Artist's Way. Yep. Do you remember who the author of that is?
[28:45] SPEAKER_00: Oh, Julia Cameron. Julia Cameron. Julia Cameron just happened to be on the underside of a
[28:51] SPEAKER_00: coffee table. Yeah. So this is the sort of shorthand title for this is the spiritual path to
[28:57] SPEAKER_00: higher creativity. This says that everyone has their own inner artist. And it could be a writer.
[29:05] SPEAKER_00: It could be whatever. And it's basically a workbook that helps you clear the static out of your
[29:14] SPEAKER_00: brain. The way I chose to look at it is they also just, she also describes your inner artists as
[29:20] SPEAKER_00: like it's an inner child. Because children are wildly creative. And then we tend to lose that as we
[29:27] SPEAKER_00: as we age and get settled down with things that we need to be responsible for. But it's that inner
[29:34] SPEAKER_00: child that inner artist is still inside of you. And that's what is the root of your creativity.
[29:40] SPEAKER_00: It doesn't matter what you do. Everyone is uses their creativity on a daily basis. Whether it's
[29:48] SPEAKER_00: talking to colleagues or designing things or interacting with customers. I don't think it's very
[29:56] SPEAKER_00: hard for anyone to think about a way that they could be being creative in their day to day.
[30:03] SPEAKER_00: Personal life can work well. And yeah, this helps eliminate a lot of the static. The thoughts that
[30:10] SPEAKER_00: buzz around in you at the back of your brain. So you can actually focus on feeding that child and
[30:15] SPEAKER_01: helping bring that creativity out of you. I think that's an amazing suggestion. And it's having read
[30:20] SPEAKER_01: the book myself. While I do not do the practice that she suggests I have in the past. And it is a
[30:25] SPEAKER_01: very, very powerful book. So I think it's a great recommendation. Thank you. I want to thank you
[30:30] SPEAKER_01: for joining me today. We'll have links to Ryan's medium and LinkedIn in the show notes of this episode.
[30:38] SPEAKER_01: And I really appreciate you taking the time and sharing your story with us.
[30:41] SPEAKER_00: I'm really glad to. Thanks for taking the time with me. Bye everyone.
[30:47] SPEAKER_01: Thanks everyone for taking the time today to listen to Toronto's podcast on the Canada Podcast
[30:51] SPEAKER_01: network. If you enjoyed the podcast today, please make sure to write us a review on iTunes and
[30:56] SPEAKER_01: share this episode with a friend. You can also check us out online at www.candardestpodcast.com
[31:02] SPEAKER_01: where you can listen, discover and engage and learn more about what other entrepreneurs are doing
[31:07] SPEAKER_01: across the country. See you next time.
