============================================================
TRANSCRIPTION WITH SPEAKERS
============================================================
[00:00] SPEAKER_03: Welcome to Canada's podcast.
[00:05] SPEAKER_03: Hi, this is Angela Faye from Canada's podcast.
[00:10] SPEAKER_03: Unbridled innovation of the past 35 years has brought the world closer together and unlocked huge economic value.
[00:18] SPEAKER_03: But technology has also led to increasing digitization of the economy
[00:22] SPEAKER_03: and has grown a new class of so-called digital giants and through their actions to collect, broker and benefit from the new wealth of data,
[00:31] SPEAKER_03: these digital giants have obtained a high degree of influence across a wide range of economic activity.
[00:38] SPEAKER_03: Around the globe, governments and policy makers have taken note of these digital giants.
[00:44] SPEAKER_03: I was curious what was happening to protect and encourage competition for small and medium business, even enterprise level companies here in the digital era.
[00:54] SPEAKER_03: That's when I discovered the Canadian competition bureau.
[00:57] SPEAKER_03: It's their responsibility together with Canada's policy makers to both protect competitive markets and help ensure that we experience the full benefits of healthy competition.
[01:09] SPEAKER_03: So we reached out and today I'm speaking with Matthew Boswell, the Commissioner of Competition.
[01:16] SPEAKER_03: And today we're going to get an inside scoop on the Canada's Federal Competition Bureau, how it is relevant for businesses and consumers,
[01:26] SPEAKER_03: and how the Competition Bureau helps Canadian businesses be competitive, and why it's important for 1 million Canadian small and medium enterprises out there to know about the bureau.
[01:37] SPEAKER_03: So welcome to Canada's podcast, Matthew.
[01:41] SPEAKER_02: Thanks very much Angela. It's great to be here.
[01:44] SPEAKER_03: Now I understand the bureau underwent a restructuring to improve its ability to ensure that Canadian business remains competitive.
[01:51] SPEAKER_03: Can you tell me a little bit about the bureau? Give us something inside scoop.
[01:55] SPEAKER_00: Okay. So the bureau is an independent law enforcement agency of the federal government, and that's very important aspect of describing us.
[02:06] SPEAKER_00: And we, our business is to protect and promote competition in Canada for the benefit of Canadian consumers.
[02:17] SPEAKER_00: And so that Canadian businesses of all sizes can prosper in a competitive economy.
[02:27] SPEAKER_00: We're located in Gattano, Quebec, which for those of you who don't know the auto areas, just on the other side of the auto river from Parliament Hill.
[02:36] SPEAKER_00: We have about 400 staff in our main office and three regional offices.
[02:44] SPEAKER_00: Of course, those 400 people have been working from home throughout COVID, but we've been able to work very effectively and to enforce the law that we have.
[02:56] SPEAKER_00: And we've been able to enforce the primary law that we enforce is the Competition Act, which is a law, a federal law of general application that applies to businesses across the country and many aspects of how they do business.
[03:11] SPEAKER_03: Now 400 seems quite quite a large number of people working on competition. And of course, this is just the legal aspect of it.
[03:22] SPEAKER_03: So how does the bureau compare in size scope to other competition enforcers around the world?
[03:29] SPEAKER_00: So let me start, Angela, by by saying reminding the listener or your listeners that like competition is a key pillar of a free market economy.
[03:44] SPEAKER_00: We live and thrive and prosper in a free market economy.
[03:48] SPEAKER_00: Many people say the reason we won the Cold War was because we had a free market economy and the Soviet Union didn't.
[03:56] SPEAKER_00: We're able to be more productive to have innovation, to have business dynamism.
[04:03] SPEAKER_00: So 400 people for the whole country, we're responsible for competition for the whole country.
[04:11] SPEAKER_00: It's actually a small number when I get into more detail about what we do.
[04:18] SPEAKER_00: And so compared to many of our colleagues around the world, the bureau is quite small.
[04:26] SPEAKER_00: I can't say though there's positive news on that front.
[04:30] SPEAKER_00: We've been sort of at a level of employees lower than 20 years ago until very recently.
[04:39] SPEAKER_00: And our budget had been stagnant for over 10 years until very recently in the spring of 2021.
[04:45] SPEAKER_00: Our Parliament announced an increase to our budget.
[04:52] SPEAKER_00: Significant increase over five years.
[04:54] SPEAKER_00: And then a permanent increase after those five years of 27 and a half million dollars per year.
[05:01] SPEAKER_00: So that's a big deal for the competition bureau.
[05:05] SPEAKER_00: And it will help us in tackling the incredible challenges we face in the modern digital data driven economy and enforcing the competition, the competition act in that economy.
[05:21] SPEAKER_00: So we're catching up to some of our peers, although if you look at competition agencies in the United States, they have two federal competition agencies and each state has an enforcement team that works on competition issues.
[05:37] SPEAKER_00: So obviously a significant commitment in the United States places like the UK and Australia, much bigger commitments.
[05:46] SPEAKER_00: But we like to think that the bureau that were relatively small, but quite mighty in what we're able to accomplish in our work every year.
[05:57] SPEAKER_00: And we aim to accomplish even more for the benefit of Canadian consumers and businesses going forward.
[06:05] SPEAKER_03: And I think we're going to talk a little bit later in the podcast about the scope of projects and I guess legal cases that are happening right now that you're defending.
[06:17] SPEAKER_03: And I think that will help put some perspective on your department in comparison to what's happening with these mega giants, but where we get to that.
[06:25] SPEAKER_03: So that's going to be exciting stuff because of course it's all serious what's happening.
[06:29] SPEAKER_03: But I want to go back and say there's a lot of discussion going on right now about competition and innovation in Canada, especially as we're trying to foster economic recovery.
[06:40] SPEAKER_03: So can you tell us a little bit about what you see Canada can do better in terms of competition and innovation?
[06:49] SPEAKER_00: Well, depends how much time I have because I can go on.
[06:53] SPEAKER_00: I can go on about this for a long time because this is really subject that's near and dear to my heart.
[06:59] SPEAKER_00: As I've already said, competition matters matters incredibly to our economy.
[07:06] SPEAKER_00: And so it matters perhaps more now than ever before as we look at an economic recovery from COVID and looking at getting the economy going full steam again, driving productivity growth to help pay down debt that was incurred throughout COVID to respond to the difficulties of COVID.
[07:33] SPEAKER_00: And to spur innovation in our economy, innovation is so incredibly important and competition is a key if not the key catalyst to innovation.
[07:47] SPEAKER_00: What drives people to get better to innovate to have new products, new services for their customers?
[07:53] SPEAKER_00: Well, it's because there's somebody down the road who to use the sort of expression is going to eat your lunch if you don't innovate if you don't get better.
[08:03] SPEAKER_00: So competition, healthy competition is vital to our economic recovery to sort of the future of Canada's status as a G7 country.
[08:18] SPEAKER_00: We can't allow the current situation to become worse, to reduce business dynamism, higher levels of business concentration, further regulatory barriers to competition in Canada.
[08:35] SPEAKER_00: Those are all big, big problems that we absolutely have to avoid.
[08:40] SPEAKER_00: So we have to have quite frankly, Angela, a much more focused debate and discussion in Canada about competition.
[08:54] SPEAKER_00: And the Bureau spends a fair bit of time advocating for competition.
[09:00] SPEAKER_00: So we enforce the law, but we also have an advocacy role.
[09:06] SPEAKER_00: We reach out to governments at all levels to promote pro competitive policies and to highlight where policies or laws or regulations might actually be hindering competition.
[09:21] SPEAKER_00: And so in doing so hindering the economy and the other thing, I just want to talk about in terms of the economic recovery is, you know, a proper approach to promoting competition in the economy in the recovery can also help make the economic recovery more inclusive by allowing for small medium sized businesses to enter to grow to expand.
[09:50] SPEAKER_00: And you allow more people to play in the economy and to, you know, to be self-plefficient to hire people.
[09:59] SPEAKER_00: We all know how many, what percentage it's huge, the percentage of Canadians they're employed in small medium sized enterprises.
[10:08] SPEAKER_00: So we need to encourage that.
[10:10] SPEAKER_00: We need to encourage that kind of business dynamism people with an entrepreneurial spirit starting small businesses and being able to compete without, you know,
[10:20] SPEAKER_00: suffering under anti competitive conduct from the big players.
[10:23] SPEAKER_00: So it's, as I told you at the beginning of this answer, I can get quite worked up about this.
[10:30] SPEAKER_00: But, you know, on the positive side, the government has recently announced that it's going to engage in a review of the Competition Act and Competition Policy in Canada.
[10:43] SPEAKER_00: I can't tell you today how that's going to, how that's going to shake out.
[10:50] SPEAKER_00: But it's, you know, they've made some initial announcements about possible areas they're going to look at, which is, which is great news for the enforcer, the people tasked with enforcing the law.
[11:02] SPEAKER_00: And we have certainly a perspective on what works and what doesn't work in our law.
[11:07] SPEAKER_00: So that's good news. And I just, you know, encourage anyone listening to this to really think hard about competition.
[11:17] SPEAKER_00: We can, we're going to talk about, you know, if there's, if they're victimized, how they can reach out to us later.
[11:25] SPEAKER_00: I'm sure.
[11:25] SPEAKER_00: But, you know, but also to use their voice in their community to advocate, to advocate to their municipal government, their provincial government, if there are things that are hindering competition that, that aren't necessary, that are getting in their way.
[11:40] SPEAKER_03: Well, and Matthew, you mentioned the competition act being revised, but I think it's actually worth touching right now on what are the most important rules that Canadian business owners need to know about competition in your bureau?
[11:53] SPEAKER_03: What are the categories of, I guess, complaints or competition that anyone forced?
[12:02] SPEAKER_03: And what I mean by that are things like, you know, price fixing or general, you know, categories, which, which, so, if we're speaking, and I think we are to, hopefully, a lot of small, medium-sized enterprises, people running businesses.
[12:22] SPEAKER_00: And who want to know about competition and how it could impact their business.
[12:28] SPEAKER_00: A few thing, a few key things to think about on the compliance side, making sure they don't go offside.
[12:35] SPEAKER_01: Yes.
[12:35] SPEAKER_00: And then we can talk about a few things to watch out for where they might become victims.
[12:40] Speaker UNKNOWN: Okay.
[12:40] SPEAKER_00: So on the compliance side, obviously, price fixing and bid rigging are two sections of the competition act that are crimes, federal crimes, where you can, if you commit those crimes, you can go to prison for up to 14 years, actually.
[13:03] SPEAKER_00: Or for price fixing, you can be fined up to $25 million for bid rigging, you can be fined in the discretion of the court.
[13:12] SPEAKER_00: So you don't, in any way, say, don't go there.
[13:16] SPEAKER_00: We want to contravene those provisions.
[13:19] SPEAKER_00: You know, you know, the penalties are one thing.
[13:22] SPEAKER_00: You're business reputation, if you are being investigated and charged is going to, you know, be seriously damaged.
[13:32] SPEAKER_00: We can get search warrants to go into your business premises and look for all your files, all your computer files, all that sort of stuff.
[13:41] SPEAKER_00: We can also get wiretaps and we can listen to your phone conversations.
[13:44] SPEAKER_00: So those are definitely no-go zone.
[13:48] SPEAKER_00: Right. Right.
[13:49] SPEAKER_00: And there's another area that's important and it's emerging.
[13:54] SPEAKER_00: It's emerging more in the online world, which is deceptive marketing.
[13:59] SPEAKER_00: And so we have a section of the competition act that deals with false or misleading advertising marketing.
[14:08] SPEAKER_00: And there are many different pitfalls in that area.
[14:11] SPEAKER_00: For example, fake online reviews, you know, you don't want to be hiring companies that will say they'll, you know, give you good online reviews and you pay them.
[14:23] SPEAKER_00: And then they have people who go on and make up reviews or put, you know, five star ratings on stuff.
[14:30] SPEAKER_00: And when it's not legitimate, that's offside our laws.
[14:35] SPEAKER_00: Well, we call that astroturfing.
[14:39] SPEAKER_00: It's like putting a fake one.
[14:43] SPEAKER_00: Also, you know, companies have to be very careful and not make false or misleading environmental claims about their products.
[14:52] SPEAKER_00: For example, unless, you know, unless you have it backed up by testing, you shouldn't be making claims about, you know, how environmental it is or how, you know, the level of recyclability.
[15:04] SPEAKER_00: And on that, we just literally entered into what we call a consent agreement with Courage Canada for them having made false or misleading representations about the recyclability of their coffee pots.
[15:21] SPEAKER_00: And they had to pay a significant financial, financial penalty.
[15:27] SPEAKER_00: Excuse me.
[15:29] SPEAKER_00: So that's another important area for businesses to make sure they don't go down that road.
[15:36] SPEAKER_00: Generally speaking, you know, false or misleading representations in your advertisement.
[15:41] SPEAKER_00: And there's different ways it can happen can get you into trouble with the bureau.
[15:48] SPEAKER_00: And, you know, just to go back to some people wonder, well, what does that have to do with competition?
[15:54] SPEAKER_00: Well, if you're lying or misleading people to get customers to get people to buy your products, you know, that's not healthy competition because the people who are telling the truth aren't getting that that business.
[16:11] SPEAKER_00: So, you know, you need to watch out for those things.
[16:14] SPEAKER_00: We also provide information to help businesses like, for example, today is the first day of fraud prevention month.
[16:25] SPEAKER_00: And that's an annual thing that's run by the competition bureau, the RCMP and the Canadian Anti-Fraud Center in collaboration.
[16:36] SPEAKER_00: And we go throughout the month to raise awareness about fraud and fraudulent practices in Canada so people can be aware of it and recognize it and report it.
[16:51] SPEAKER_00: And of course, businesses just like anybody else can be victims of fraud.
[16:56] SPEAKER_00: And there are multiple different areas where businesses can be victimized where we've gone after fraudsters.
[17:05] SPEAKER_00: For, you know, things like subscription traps, there's something called the CEO scam.
[17:12] SPEAKER_00: There's the yellow page invoices scam.
[17:15] SPEAKER_03: That sounds like what's the CEO scam?
[17:18] SPEAKER_00: The CEO scam is somebody makes a fake email from the CEO.
[17:27] SPEAKER_00: It looks like it's from the CEO to maybe somebody who's in the finance department that the CEO needs tax money transfer really quickly to this account, this bank, this business, and the money is totally, totally not destined in a legitimate way and it's gone.
[17:47] SPEAKER_00: And of course, there's a, we've brought, we've dealt with in the past invoice scams, which there was a company that was pretending to be like the yellow pages back when people had yellow page phone books and even online yellow pages phone books and would send invoices that appeared as if you the company had a contract for a yellow page ad.
[18:16] SPEAKER_00: And, and somebody in the finance department would get the invoice sale.
[18:21] SPEAKER_00: Well, this must be, and they'd pay them.
[18:23] SPEAKER_00: Right.
[18:24] SPEAKER_00: And it was there was no ad. There was no nothing.
[18:28] SPEAKER_00: So, sorry, I got off an attention there.
[18:31] SPEAKER_03: That's okay. We were talking about sort of examples of, you know, victims and specific are happening.
[18:38] SPEAKER_00: So businesses and small medium size enterprises can can be victims. They're very, you know, we understand I understand entrepreneurs small businesses are focused on their business are focused on on growing their business, doing the best they can getting the most.
[18:54] SPEAKER_00: And so these things can sort of sneak up on you because you're not expecting this kind of fraudulent activity. Now the other area where, you know,
[19:07] SPEAKER_00: we want businesses to reach out to us and let us know if they fear this is happening or they think this is happening to them is what we call abusive dominance, which is, which is sort of to, to summarize it.
[19:24] SPEAKER_00: It's when a big company that has a dominant position in the market is engaging in anti competitive conduct to hurt competitors to prevent competitors from getting into the market to exclude them.
[19:42] SPEAKER_00: And, you know, on our, on our website, the competition bureau.gc.ca, we have lots of guidance material available for people who are wondering if maybe they're the victim of an anti competitive scheme or to learn more about deceptive marketing practices or fraud practices that they may be
[20:10] SPEAKER_00: victimized by.
[20:11] SPEAKER_00: So I would encourage folks listening to take a look at our website, remember our website, even if you don't take a look at it in case something does happen where you think, hmm, and look at what we have there and then contact us if you, if you believe that you've been the victim of something.
[20:33] SPEAKER_00: I should also say that if perhaps as a result of this of this podcast, you come to the realization that maybe your company has been, for example, participating in price fixing or bid rigging.
[20:53] SPEAKER_00: That doesn't necessarily mean, you know, the end of the earth, we have programs where people can self report.
[21:03] SPEAKER_00: And the first company or person to self report can actually get immunity from prosecution in exchange for telling the bureau about about what's what's happened and providing the evidence that they have.
[21:21] SPEAKER_00: And then even the second company to come in can get much linear treat, much more lenient treatment, right, how they're handled in prosecution of the case.
[21:33] SPEAKER_00: So that's worthwhile for people to think about.
[21:37] SPEAKER_00: I don't, you know, hopefully nobody in this audience has done that.
[21:41] SPEAKER_03: Hopefully they're not, but just curious.
[21:43] SPEAKER_03: Let's just pick on price fixing as an example right now is.
[21:48] SPEAKER_03: Federal, but can price fixing be regional or even local?
[21:54] SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
[21:55] SPEAKER_03: If so, are you the right pathway to suggest maybe we've, you know, I'm just picking on price fixing, exceptive you're it.
[22:04] SPEAKER_00: The whole country, okay, the whole country.
[22:07] SPEAKER_00: So, I just want to say can absolutely be regional or local or as can bid rigging and bid rigging often is bid rigging what we see in a lot of bid rigging is on municipal or provincial contracts related to roads or infrastructure sidewalks.
[22:29] SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, we've been able to prosecute, investigate and then and then have the prosecutors prosecute these cases on, you know, regional basis as well as national basis as well as international price fixing can be international.
[22:50] SPEAKER_00: And we have had over the years many large international price fixing cases.
[22:58] SPEAKER_00: For example, earlier in the 2010s, for years, we investigated multiple price fixing and bid rigging conspiracies related to the sale of auto parts.
[23:17] SPEAKER_00: Various auto parts to original equipment manufacturers, primarily Japanese auto companies.
[23:26] SPEAKER_00: And there were guilty pleas multiple guilty pleas in Canada where tens of millions of dollars were paid and fines by these auto part manufacturing companies.
[23:38] SPEAKER_00: So, it can go from all over the world down to your neighborhood in terms of price fixing or bid rigging.
[23:44] SPEAKER_03: Well, and we've talked a little a few examples like the theory again, the auto parts, are there any other examples or I guess even from what's happening the most what sort of complaints are you getting right now in today's digital era if if digital plays a part in that and you know for what people should be aware of.
[24:09] SPEAKER_00: So, we we received thousands of complaints every year. I don't know the exact number for 2021, but it's it's thousands and our complaints are all over the map in terms of the different areas where we enforce the law.
[24:28] SPEAKER_00: The majority year over year are deceptive marketing matters where people are contacting contacting us to complain about a particular practice in a particular industry are you know you mentioned digital and digital economy.
[24:50] SPEAKER_00: That has been a key area of focus for the bureau for multiple years now. I mean certainly since since I've been commissioner and even my predecessor put tremendous emphasis on investigations in the digital economy.
[25:08] SPEAKER_00: We have brought many many cases. I mean I could run through a list of of companies where we've brought cases against them in the digital economy for practices.
[25:21] SPEAKER_00: You know online whether they're deceptive marketing or other other types of cases. I mean, you know throughout a series of years we went after basically all the large car.
[25:38] SPEAKER_00: rental companies for deceptive marketing. We went we've gone after ticket master for deceptive marketing. We've gone after bell Canada Rogers tell us for deceptive marketing.
[25:53] Speaker UNKNOWN: Big players. Yeah.
[25:56] SPEAKER_00: Yeah. I mean that's that's sort of common in our work is that we're often dealing with the you know some of the biggest companies in Canada if not bigger biggest companies around the world.
[26:09] SPEAKER_00: We've we've had I can't remember what year it was but I think it was 2017. We had a case against Amazon for deceptive marketing practices and how they were representing the price of the market.
[26:26] SPEAKER_00: They have a good in the market generally and then the their price and ultimately they settled with us and paid a fine.
[26:37] SPEAKER_00: And as a result of our case they changed their algorithm and how it worked not just in Canada but around the world.
[26:45] SPEAKER_01: Wow great.
[26:47] SPEAKER_00: We have you know it's public knowledge we have an active investigation into Amazon right now.
[26:54] SPEAKER_00: Can't get into details but we also have an active investigation into Google right now.
[27:02] SPEAKER_00: So and those investigations are more on the abuse of dominance side what I talked about earlier.
[27:09] SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
[27:11] SPEAKER_03: And I'm curious Matthew when when we're looking at those big companies like Google and Facebook is it really from a Canadian only context or are you sort of banding together with other competition bureaus or yeah.
[27:26] SPEAKER_00: Yeah good question. So both.
[27:29] SPEAKER_00: When it comes to applying the law in Canada that is you know we have to we don't just make decisions at the bureau and and issue fines right we have to take our case just a court no matter what all all our cases end up in court or in front of something of the competition tribunal.
[27:50] SPEAKER_00: So we have to prove it.
[27:53] SPEAKER_00: And in in those cases where there's international element to it when we're investigating in Canada we have to prove it under the Canadian law and the intricacies of the Canadian law.
[28:09] SPEAKER_00: But that's very similar to other jurisdictions so we will.
[28:15] SPEAKER_00: We spend a fair bit of time on international cooperation and collaboration and we needed to get better quite frankly and that's something we're pushing we need to be able to share information more readily across borders and to collaborate on these investigations more.
[28:34] SPEAKER_00: So that's something that that I'm actively engaged in trying to enhance the international cooperation but yes the short answer is yes we work with our partners around the world.
[28:45] SPEAKER_00: I mean our our key partners and they've always been our key partners are the two agencies in the United States the United States Department of Justice Anti-Trust Division and the United States Federal Trade Commission.
[28:59] SPEAKER_00: I mean just make sense we're you know we're neighbors we're the biggest trade partners so we work with them a lot but we also work very closely with the European Union the United Kingdom Australia Ireland Japan Korea.
[29:15] SPEAKER_00: Wow because because it's a global I mean in a global world in a digital world this stuff whatever whatever's happening that that appears to be bad or might be bad is often going on all over the place.
[29:29] SPEAKER_03: So we need to work together absolutely well now talking about just the Canadian context for now is what three industries do you see with the greatest opportunity to increase competitive intensity.
[29:45] SPEAKER_00: So we we think about sectors and it's it's interesting to say competitive intensity we we do prioritize certain sectors I mean as I said we we are law covers basically business activity throughout Canada.
[30:07] SPEAKER_00: But over the last several years and going into this year you know we are very active in the telecom space construction and infrastructure space digital economy matters and health.
[30:27] SPEAKER_00: We have a fair bit of expertise in those areas and we this is where our advocacy comes in we try and provide provide advice to governments to encourage competition to facilitate competition for the benefit of the general economy but also for the benefit of small medium size enterprises.
[30:52] SPEAKER_00: So they can they can participate a great example of this is the work we've been doing in FinTech financial technology since back in 2017 we did a market study in this area back then we've been advocating to the federal government on issues in FinTech since that time.
[31:19] SPEAKER_00: And the government is continuing to examine the issues with what they call open banking which is to have the ability to move your data from one financial institution to another seamlessly to allow you to switch to provide you with new innovative services in terms of your financial your financial management of your life.
[31:48] SPEAKER_00: And this is obviously very important to consumers we see many other jurisdictions around the world well ahead of Canada and and those jurisdictions where consumers have great choice in terms of the products they can use the institutions they can access for their financial management.
[32:08] SPEAKER_00: So that's that's a sort of a high level federal example of how we advocate and that's kind of FinTech is is in the digital space the digital economy but we do stuff as well that people would be I think surprised to hear I mean before Uber became what Uber is now in Canada and lift and other ridesharing companies.
[32:36] SPEAKER_00: You know we put out a white paper that was quite controversial at the time with certain people because it it's self out the advantages of opening up the taxi market effectively to ride sharing and how it would you know how that competition would spur better service new you know innovative products where you can see on your phone where the
[33:06] SPEAKER_00: vehicle is and that our white paper and and our intervention there was relied upon by multiple different municipalities to say yeah we should allow ride sharing so that's kind of a an example on the municipal basis where taxis were controlled and that was it's not been a complete success as their areas is still don't allow it but that's a whole nother issue and recently recently.
[33:36] SPEAKER_00: We did some interventions on food trucks and municipal rules on where food trucks could park and how they were allowed to park near restaurants and and how this was really you know a barrier to competition that you know we ask when we do these things we ask the regulators or the policy makers to consider like is it is it a necessary barrier to competition
[34:04] SPEAKER_00: as there is a valid reason for it because there may be a valid reason for it some other policy reason that we don't you know we don't want to apply on that we just ask them to think about these things because in an I'll tell you Angela Canada is is 33 let me just check this number before I say it allowed in 2018 Canada was 33rd out of 34 OECD countries
[34:33] SPEAKER_00: in what they call the product market regulation indicators which is a basket of indicators the OECD the organization for economic cooperation development uses to look at regulatory barriers to competition in a country we came second last
[34:54] SPEAKER_03: I was going to say so let's just put that in context we are almost dead last we be turkey we be turkey okay and I was going to ask you and since you sort of prefaced it with that number is you know you know I've talked before and I got a hint that you are actually quite concerned about Canada's lack of innovation culture
[35:22] SPEAKER_00: what does that mean and how can we address that really I'm not actually I really put it this way I'm not actually concerned about Canada's innovation culture okay I think we have an incredible ability to be a very innovative country with new new ideas new products we have incredibly well educated population we have you know
[35:49] SPEAKER_00: an entrepreneurial spirit where you know we're beside the United States one of the most sort of innovative kind of economies so I think I think we have the ability and the opportunity but I think things like you know coming second last in barriers to competition in terms of regulations in the OECD
[36:18] SPEAKER_00: that's what's holding us back you know in 2008 the federal government had a a blue ribbon panel it's been referred to as to look into competition in Canada and one of their conclusions was Canada is a jurisdiction that doesn't place enough emphasis on competition okay
[36:43] SPEAKER_03: and and we need to change that Matthew could you give us some insight on though I mean 33 out of 34 so nearly dead last in you know the product market indicators what do we what do we do I mean you mentioned simply asking question is that a necessary piece of policy or legislation or red tape and even if there was historically some valid reason why it was in place I mean just asking the question is
[37:13] SPEAKER_03: perhaps one you know what else can we do at each level of of government and I'm picking on government as businesses you know are susceptible what else can we do to get us off that ranking
[37:30] SPEAKER_00: well I mean there's an a standing OECD recommendation in to Canada that we implement what we call competition impact assessments into our regulatory mechanisms like for making regulations reviewing regulations
[37:54] SPEAKER_00: that it be a requirement that you consider how a regulation impacts competition in the market in question and that could be done at all levels of government
[38:09] SPEAKER_00: who does that Matthew I mean who would be that person is it like a bit like you guys are independent law enforcer do you imagine it being an independent competition review organization consultancy person I mean you you I haven't fully thought that through in terms of how it be done in Canada but you you develop people who have an expertise in competition the bureau has 400 of them
[38:41] SPEAKER_00: and you and that you know we obviously can't be the bureau for the whole country to look at every regulation but yes you you sort of systematically have a team that looks at these and provides honest advice to those in positions of power that you know we don't need this regulation it's hindering competition in this market we should get rid of it
[39:05] SPEAKER_00: and then they'll be you know the people who we elect to make decisions will make decisions but yeah you kind of systematically we need to go about it if you know you start with new regulations that are being put in place whatever they may be and just do the assessment and some many many will be like now there's no impact on competition whatsoever
[39:26] SPEAKER_03: but some it'll be like why do we why are we doing that absolutely well and I have this you know sort of hear that if we had a and I'm picking a little bit on infrastructure development but if we had a low barrier to build zone in every municipality of that which would be kind of an innovation hub right where
[39:48] SPEAKER_03: while in and maybe the whole community wide infrastructure yes we have hundreds of building codes whereas in the low barrier to build code yes we can bring in 3d printers and start building homes in infrastructure right it exponentially faster and cheaper more affordably something like 3d printers where the construction codes haven't necessarily caught up in incorporated that type of building construction that's just one example
[40:16] SPEAKER_03: so I have this theory that the innovation zone can can speed up access to innovation in in local communities.
[40:29] SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of debate about how to spur innovation and it's important debate it's for the future of the country and competition is an important piece.
[40:40] SPEAKER_03: Well, and there was one one thing I want to ask directing people we've got your resources and compensation bureau where people can actually go and access acts and the detail to ensure that they are in compliance.
[40:57] SPEAKER_03: We then have the you know the perhaps violators or people who feel violators themselves or people who might be victims can connect with the bureau what's the best way for them to connect with you Matthew.
[41:15] SPEAKER_00: So the through our website right now is the best way there's a that we have an online intake form where people can provide information and we will have whatever subject matter it is will have people look at it and determine if there's you know something there to pursue if if they're self reporting in terms of a
[41:43] SPEAKER_00: cartel activity there's they can go on the bureau on the bureau's website and find out the appropriate number to call which is to seek what we call a marker to get their spot in line for immunity or leniency very very important and people should understand.
[42:05] SPEAKER_00: You know sometimes people are worried oh well if I you know if I say something yeah you know I'm going to be I'm going to be I'm going to suffer consequences as a result of that we have in the whistleblower context there are rules in the competition act about the protection of whistleblowers in other areas where it's companies complaining about anti competitive conduct you know we have
[42:35] SPEAKER_00: strict confidentiality provisions that that we respect and we pay very close attention to for you know information received so it's not like you tell us one day and like three days later we're going to tell the world that you know so and so is complaining but it's very it's very important that we hear from the marketplace on issues going on out there and that's why in the Amazon the current Amazon investigation we put out a call out.
[43:05] SPEAKER_00: To the marketplace people who might be selling on Amazon to provide us with information if they have any with respect to some of the questions we asked and you can see our call out the specific things were interested in on our website and if you googled if you if you put into a search engine Google or you know that go or whatever competition bureau Amazon you're going to get that call out that we put out and we put out a call out.
[43:35] SPEAKER_00: Other call outs about the digital economy so we need to hear we need to hear from people you know as I say there's 400 of us but we're not we're not everywhere in the country at one time in every economy or in every market and so we do rely on hearing from people.
[43:51] SPEAKER_03: And I think that's really one of the most important takeaways right here is you know your central bureau but you're you're part of the voice of Canadian business and I think if if people are experiencing you know a lack of of competition in whatever respect it's worth noting we're reaching out to you having a look at what the calls are already because there might already be something that's in the works.
[44:19] SPEAKER_03: People weren't aware of and so you know as part of my goal was to bring a little bit more attention to the competition bureau and the great work that it's doing here for for Canadians.
[44:30] SPEAKER_00: Thank you I mean it is it is vital that we have intelligence we're we're focusing more on proactive intelligence in the marketplace and we're developing tools for proactive intelligence which I'm very excited about.
[44:49] SPEAKER_00: We're going to use the forensic tools and other tools in the digital economy to be more aware of what's going on out there but that doesn't that's never going to mean we don't need to know from people who are living it every day.
[45:03] SPEAKER_03: Absolutely Matthew I just want to say thank you for investing some time with us here on Canada's podcast and I'm sure we'll see you more and certainly definitely have the impact of the work that you're doing here to raise Canada.
[45:18] SPEAKER_03: Now we have a big goal to get us above the dead second last position in a global product market session so we'll hold you that.
[45:30] SPEAKER_03: Maybe we connect in five more years and super we're ahead of the game.
[45:35] SPEAKER_00: Sounds good well thank you very much Angela it was a pleasure.
