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TRANSCRIPTION WITH SPEAKERS
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[00:00] SPEAKER_00: It's Toronto's podcast on the Canada's podcast network.
[00:09] SPEAKER_00: Hi, this is Lesson to Mile with the Canada's podcast, The Nation's Number One Entrepreneurial Network.
[00:15] SPEAKER_00: Today I'm thrilled to be speaking with James Ponyley, the founder and CEO of Vox Nero.
[00:21] SPEAKER_00: Vox Nero provides the world's first objective concussion and acquired brain injury assessment
[00:26] SPEAKER_00: that steps beyond diagnosis.
[00:28] SPEAKER_00: Welcome James, how are you?
[00:30] SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much, Lesson.
[00:32] SPEAKER_01: I'm doing very well.
[00:32] SPEAKER_01: How are you?
[00:33] SPEAKER_01: I'm great.
[00:34] SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
[00:35] SPEAKER_01: Excellent.
[00:36] SPEAKER_00: Why don't you start by telling me a little bit about Vox Nero and what it is and what
[00:39] SPEAKER_00: you guys do?
[00:41] SPEAKER_01: Definitely.
[00:42] SPEAKER_01: And I'll keep this concise.
[00:45] SPEAKER_01: So Vox Nero is commercializing an objective cognitive health assessment that leverages something
[00:50] SPEAKER_01: called electroencephalography, better known as EEG, that we are coupling with a proprietary
[00:57] SPEAKER_01: protocol and software components, including machine learning and artificial intelligence.
[01:02] SPEAKER_01: That's a big mouthful, but what we're really doing here is delivering the first neuroimaging
[01:07] SPEAKER_01: tool that can quantify cognitive function.
[01:11] SPEAKER_01: And what we're excited to be doing with this tool is to be eliminating some of the subjectivity
[01:16] SPEAKER_01: and trial and error approaches to cognitive rehab that exists today, which are actually
[01:22] SPEAKER_01: essentially gold standard.
[01:23] SPEAKER_01: So, in a nutshell, that's what we do.
[01:26] SPEAKER_01: I could spend the next afternoon talking to you about what I think we can do.
[01:31] SPEAKER_01: But in a nutshell, we are here to deliver a new layer of objective data to help inform
[01:37] SPEAKER_01: clinical decision-making, streamline healthcare resources in the concussion of brain injury
[01:42] SPEAKER_01: space here in Canada and across the world.
[01:46] SPEAKER_01: And we are slowly but surely packing away.
[01:48] SPEAKER_01: We're about two and a half years into the commercialization.
[01:53] SPEAKER_01: I think one of the secret weapons that our team had is that although we are a relatively
[01:59] SPEAKER_01: new company, we are commercializing 25-plus-year research that was first validated in 1999
[02:09] SPEAKER_01: when I was just a child.
[02:12] SPEAKER_01: So, I think for us to be able to really aggressively commercialize something that's spent the last 20-plus
[02:17] SPEAKER_01: years proving out its model even further, it's really given us the moment and we needed
[02:23] SPEAKER_01: to come in here and disrupt an area of the healthcare system that isn't desperate
[02:27] SPEAKER_01: in need of it.
[02:28] SPEAKER_00: I know that you've come from a line of like neuroscientists and your father did found some of the research
[02:33] SPEAKER_00: that you're going off.
[02:35] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, okay, so yeah, I can jump right into that as well.
[02:38] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure.
[02:40] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and so just to clarify, I am not a neuroscientist and I can only be described as a non-technical
[02:45] SPEAKER_01: founder.
[02:46] SPEAKER_01: My career was in commercial development, client relationship management, things like that,
[02:51] SPEAKER_01: across a number of industries including the automotive industry where I started intermediate advertising
[02:56] SPEAKER_01: and things like that.
[02:58] SPEAKER_01: But, you know, my father is a worlder now neuroscientist.
[03:02] SPEAKER_01: I would just be a little lab rat after school.
[03:06] SPEAKER_01: I'd be a kid running around and I used to have researchers stop me and say, you know,
[03:10] SPEAKER_01: one day your dad's work here is going to change the world.
[03:13] SPEAKER_01: And that always excited me.
[03:16] SPEAKER_01: I was always very proud of my father from very early age, very proud to be his son.
[03:20] SPEAKER_01: And on the flip side, my mother was an entrepreneur and a successful one.
[03:24] SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, being able to watch my father's work, I can tell you, the first business plan
[03:29] SPEAKER_01: for Box Neuro was actually created as part of a grade 11 economics class that I did.
[03:35] SPEAKER_01: So, I'll give a little shout out to Mr. Canalakis back in Halifax, Nova Scotia.
[03:40] SPEAKER_01: Thanks for the inspiration very early on in my life.
[03:43] SPEAKER_01: But, anyway, at this stage, we are, we co-founded Box Neuro together in 2017,
[03:51] SPEAKER_01: based on two key triggers, really.
[03:53] SPEAKER_01: The first one being that I think the market was at a right stage.
[03:57] SPEAKER_01: My father and I have been in communication regularly since 2009.
[04:01] SPEAKER_01: So, from 2009 to 2017, we were talking casually about doing this.
[04:05] SPEAKER_01: And we just started to see the trends.
[04:07] SPEAKER_01: You saw these sports leagues rectify issues with their policies and rules.
[04:12] SPEAKER_01: You started to see things here in Canada like Rowan's Law take effect,
[04:16] SPEAKER_01: general awareness and appreciation and acknowledgement of concussions started to take shape.
[04:22] SPEAKER_01: And we knew it was our time to jump, to get this technology out there and start to help people.
[04:30] SPEAKER_01: So, I am from, I come from a very, my parents are, I think, brilliant.
[04:35] SPEAKER_01: And I'm very lucky to have had those parents.
[04:36] SPEAKER_01: I sometimes wonder how I came out of it.
[04:38] SPEAKER_01: But I am somewhere in between an entrepreneur and a neuroscientist mentality.
[04:44] SPEAKER_01: But it's been fun to build a company with my father and with a number of other people that are very important while I...
[04:50] SPEAKER_01: It's incredible.
[04:51] SPEAKER_00: So, where did the name Box Neuroconcron come from?
[04:55] SPEAKER_01: It came from our chief science officer, who is a neuroscientist and thus a nerd at heart.
[05:03] SPEAKER_01: So, actually originally he attempted to commercialize a number of times before this attempt in the previous decades.
[05:11] SPEAKER_01: And at one point it was, um, Fox, sorry, Neurovox.
[05:15] SPEAKER_01: And that translates lightly in Latin to voice of the brain or the brain's voice.
[05:22] SPEAKER_01: And so, when we went to start again in 2017, we spent a couple days really like actually a couple weeks really talking through,
[05:29] SPEAKER_01: okay, what's this new name going to be?
[05:31] SPEAKER_01: And we said, why don't we just flip them around because we like it.
[05:34] SPEAKER_01: So, instead of being the brain's voice in Latin, this loosely translates to the voice of the brain.
[05:39] SPEAKER_01: Um, our tagline, you know, being, uh, unlocking the brain, we're really trying to give a voice to the brain because it has one.
[05:46] SPEAKER_01: And right now no one's listening to it.
[05:50] SPEAKER_00: I know that Fox Neuro is making technology that is for brain injury.
[05:56] SPEAKER_00: But can it also be used for the symptoms of stroke and other types of injury?
[06:01] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a great question. And, um, yes, um, it's funny. I just completed a conversation with a colleague of mine about.
[06:08] SPEAKER_01: It's time for us to update our narrative again.
[06:11] SPEAKER_01: It's time to start with the big picture.
[06:14] SPEAKER_01: We've had to evolve our narrative and our pitch essentially along the way to make sure that we're really capturing the imagination and interest and understanding from the clinical community, the investment community, the policy development community.
[06:30] SPEAKER_01: But now we're at a stage where we're talking big picture to people.
[06:35] SPEAKER_01: And so, big picture is Fox Neuro's a platform technology for the brain.
[06:38] SPEAKER_01: If you're a state colder in this world, seeking detailed quantification of brain function, we're the best group in the world to provide that.
[06:48] SPEAKER_01: So to your point, we are currently running research projects here in Canada and abroad with a number of world class healthcare networks in these spaces of neuro degenerative disorders, stroke, mental health.
[07:03] SPEAKER_01: Alzheimer's and the aging population generally. There's really no limit to our application.
[07:10] SPEAKER_01: We started in concussion and brain injury because that's where the most data was and it was where we had the most validation and it's also where we see the most attention.
[07:20] SPEAKER_01: In times and so for us, we've got to balance our passion to solve every problem with our need to be strategic and focused.
[07:29] SPEAKER_01: So we're initially starting in that brain injury space, but we have long term plans of extending and expanding our applications into all of these characteristics.
[07:38] SPEAKER_01: And our big audacious goal here, I would like to be able to say 10 years from now we're going to have the largest, deepest and richest database on individual cognitive function in the world.
[07:48] SPEAKER_01: And we believe that we're entering a new era of human existence where that's going to become extremely important. So good question. You're absolutely right.
[07:56] SPEAKER_00: It's very exciting.
[07:58] SPEAKER_00: So your father has been quoted as saying that up to 43% of patients, you might not be able to answer this, but 43% of patients whose brain functioning is assessed after a head injury walk out of the hospital with the wrong diagnosis.
[08:12] SPEAKER_00: Why do you think that's happening?
[08:14] SPEAKER_00: And like how it might be.
[08:15] SPEAKER_01: So firstly, he does repeat that fact that is not his data per se that is, I believe, the Centers for Disease Control and prevention out of the United States as well as the American and the logical association.
[08:31] SPEAKER_01: But I can't be sure, but I know that that is something we we harp on a lot and it is very true.
[08:35] SPEAKER_01: So if you think about 43%, it's really close to 50 and in fact it's below 50, which technically means a coin flip, maybe a better probability.
[08:47] SPEAKER_01: The reason this is happening is because clinicians are not given the right tools.
[08:53] SPEAKER_01: And a lot of times you hear people complain, oh, we're not delivering good enough service and it's the healthcare systems fault. It's not.
[08:59] SPEAKER_01: It is the private sectors fault, it is the government's fault and it's in reality not actually anyone's fault. That's the wrong word, but it's our responsibility to innovate and provide solutions that better position clinicians to make informed decisions based in objective data.
[09:14] SPEAKER_01: So to answer your question directly, the reason we have such a high probability and an error rate here is because clinicians quite literally are forced to leverage subjective information, whether it be observing symptoms or recording the patient's self reporting.
[09:32] SPEAKER_01: We liken this often to the concept of walking into a doctor's office with a cough and had them diagnosing you with lung cancer.
[09:40] SPEAKER_01: That would never happen. If the doctor saw a symptom like a heavy cough and thought it was serious, you would go and get blood work done and a number of other diagnostic tests.
[09:49] SPEAKER_01: That isn't available for clinicians in this space today. And there's probably people out there listening right now freaking out saying, well, no, MRI and CT do that.
[09:58] SPEAKER_01: And they absolutely do and they're incredible technologies. They are assessing the structural integrity of the brain.
[10:05] SPEAKER_01: They do not look at the functional component, the true electrical functions similar to EKG assessing our hearts.
[10:12] SPEAKER_01: We are assessing the brain's performance on electrical levels. So this really boils down to innovation and it's time for the brain to get the attention it deserves.
[10:22] SPEAKER_01: It is an incredibly important part of our body. I mean, I think that goes without saying.
[10:28] SPEAKER_01: And it's been a long time since we've had major breakthroughs and major innovations to support clinical decision making and improved healthcare and treatment paths for patients.
[10:37] SPEAKER_01: So that's why there's a lot of groups out there working very hard. We're certainly not the only one.
[10:43] SPEAKER_01: And we're very excited to be part of an incredible ecosystem here on Terry.
[10:47] SPEAKER_01: We all have the same mantra, which is there's no one single group with the solution here. This will be a multi disciplinary approach and we will solve it together.
[10:58] SPEAKER_00: Great answer. So opening up some assessment centers and your first assessment center is located in McMaster and you have planned to open some more locations.
[11:10] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely. Where are your new locations going to be?
[11:13] SPEAKER_01: Yes, so firstly, the first assessment center we opened up in partnership with McMaster University who invested in box and row by way of in kind space, which I can never say thank you enough to McMaster.
[11:27] SPEAKER_01: I know there's a lot of things to accomplish at a university. So it's really special to be able to have gotten something from them that really meant a lot to us and supported us.
[11:38] SPEAKER_01: So we opened up the assessment center as part of essentially proof of concept.
[11:44] SPEAKER_01: Our business model here is to license our assessment system to existing clinics. We integrate our systems into their clinics.
[11:55] SPEAKER_01: We create a new revenue stream for that clinic while also optimizing their existing business, which is rehab.
[12:01] SPEAKER_01: So we created the assessment center on McMaster, sorry McMaster campus.
[12:06] SPEAKER_01: We launched it and opened in 2019 in June with some of our lead clients to prove about that concept.
[12:14] SPEAKER_01: I'm very excited to share with you that we actually have now completed training and integration at our first true integrated system at the existing clinic.
[12:26] SPEAKER_01: So that's going to be happening at pillars of wellness clinic in Burlington, Ontario.
[12:31] SPEAKER_01: We are formally launching March 2nd, but they're running assessments today and they're improving the community of Burlington's brain health care right now.
[12:41] SPEAKER_01: Aside from pillars, we are also in the process of formalizing an agreement and plan to launch in the next four weeks here at Toronto with a group.
[12:50] SPEAKER_01: I'm afraid I can't share that name yet, but I can't wait to share that name. We're very excited to be here in Toronto.
[12:56] SPEAKER_01: And aside from that, we are in talks, very deep into talks with groups in Ottawa, Montreal, Calgary, BC, and actually in the US as well.
[13:04] SPEAKER_01: So we've got groups in New York, state, Texas, Arizona, Michigan, and California.
[13:10] SPEAKER_01: So they're sitting back and waiting for FDA clearance, which we're anticipating sometime in the next six months.
[13:16] SPEAKER_01: So we'll say, you know, mid 2020. But as we are health Canada clear today, we're very focused on the Canadian market.
[13:24] SPEAKER_01: So it's been busy right now, but it's a huge expansion.
[13:28] SPEAKER_00: You have to do it. Yes, you do.
[13:32] SPEAKER_00: Are the cognitive health assessments covered under O'Hip? There's something that you foresee in the future for the company?
[13:38] SPEAKER_01: Definitely in the future. I'll give an anecdote I got from a venture capital event.
[13:46] SPEAKER_01: I took part in Niagara a couple years ago that was hosted by OBIO, which is a great group here in Ontario.
[13:53] SPEAKER_01: This VC young man, Brilliant, you can just tell. He pulled up a graph. He showed me they've done his company and done a 70 year longitudinal review of healthcare technologies.
[14:06] SPEAKER_01: And the average time from integration of new technology into a single healthcare system to being fully covered nationally is almost 30 years, three decades.
[14:21] SPEAKER_01: So all of that to say no, we are not O'Hip covered today, but if there's anyone from O'Hip listening, is it Boxer or a dog?
[14:27] SPEAKER_01: I'm going to learn more and feel free to give me a call. But in saying that we do have some coverage, and I'm very excited to share that with you.
[14:34] SPEAKER_01: So we are currently covered under something called an OCF-18. What that really means is it's automotive insurance.
[14:41] SPEAKER_01: So if you're listening to this now and you live in Ontario and you're in a car accident, you can have your assessment covered under your automotive insurance completely.
[14:51] SPEAKER_01: That happened a lot faster than we anticipated. We were told it could be a 12 to 18 month process from initiating it.
[14:59] SPEAKER_01: And we were getting approvals within, I believe, about six weeks. And this really boils down to firstly, we have an incredible team at Boxer or that can really get the points across and really hit milestones quickly.
[15:12] SPEAKER_01: But I think even more importantly was, and a promising sign was that we could tell the insurance industry very quickly understood the value of layering objective evidence across a treatment path early.
[15:26] SPEAKER_01: So instead of spending a couple of minds seeing if someone would get better and paying for them to be off work and paying for them to have assessments, let's get them one single assessment.
[15:35] SPEAKER_01: Let's see what the functional issues are and then let's move forward from there. So we are covered under automotive insurance.
[15:43] SPEAKER_01: Aside from that, as of right now, we are out of pocket. We did not anticipate the traction that we have for out of pocket, but I can tell you right now, at least in Ontario, and it seems across Canada.
[15:54] SPEAKER_01: And I believe really around the world, people are ready to take back control of their brain health. They know they have not been given the opportunity to do so.
[16:02] SPEAKER_01: And they are not concerned to be paying out of pocket. And we should say, you know, it's quite literally here in Canada, our assessments are $650 per assessment.
[16:12] SPEAKER_01: And we turn them around about 48 hours compared to a neuropsychological assessment, which can be three months plus.
[16:19] SPEAKER_01: Again, it's all about time. It doesn't matter if it's a broken ankle or a concussion. If I have to wait three months to begin recovery, it's not good enough.
[16:28] SPEAKER_01: And so we're very excited to be accelerating that process and allowing for Canadians to take back control of the brain health.
[16:35] SPEAKER_00: Tell me about the vision that you have for your business and keep see focused on the vision.
[16:40] SPEAKER_01: The big picture here is to be the brain company. I don't know another company today that has the potential and the foundational research, the tenacity, the talent and the momentum to be that company.
[16:55] SPEAKER_01: I think we can be that company globally. And I think we base it in objective evidence that supports healthy brains, whether it be recovery or performance.
[17:05] SPEAKER_01: I'm going to attempt an analogy. It could fall flat, but we'll see how this goes. In the travel industry, before Expedia, you had to find your hotel and then you had to go book your flight.
[17:20] SPEAKER_01: And then you had to go figure out how to rent a car and then you had to go figure out where you find the fun event to do while you're there.
[17:27] SPEAKER_01: We had an aha moment at one of our offsite planning sessions in 2019. And maybe we can be something along the lines of the Expedia for brains where if you have a problem or you have fears of a potential problem or if you have an interest in knowing how your brain is performing it and an interest in potentially seeing if you can help it perform better.
[17:52] SPEAKER_01: And maybe the first step can be box neural. And if we have a 60 minute assessment completed, we can tell you where you're strong. We can tell you where you're weak. We can tell you which specialists you would need to see if you were to be, you know, shown to have an issue.
[18:06] SPEAKER_01: So it might be a little bit abstract for listeners, but in my head, the idea of being the Expedia for brains makes a little bit of sense. And this goes back on our other applications and being a platform technology. So what does that mean?
[18:26] SPEAKER_01: The last thing to say on being the brain company is if we start where we are, you know, right here in that objective assessment, we can look to become a proactive company. Maybe we can start to look at some of these incredible preventative technologies are out there. Maybe we can provide them with evidence that their technology does in fact defend the brain from functional issues.
[18:48] SPEAKER_01: So maybe we can get into some of the preventative technologies and start to really have an end to end solution. We're very interested in improving our skill set and understanding on the actual rehab. So we hope to be able to, you know, build out a large group of clinical specialists as well to administer that rehabilitation.
[19:08] SPEAKER_01: So from our perspective, we want to be here for humans to help them improve their brain, whether it's damaged or not.
[19:17] SPEAKER_00: What do you see as your biggest challenge as your inner future as an entrepreneur?
[19:23] SPEAKER_01: The landscape changes on an hourly basis to start up. And if it's not hourly, it's definitely daily and that's not an understatement.
[19:31] SPEAKER_01: But in saying that we know where our barriers are and we focus on those daily. You know, when you're bringing a new technology to healthcare, you need to change a lot of opinions.
[19:46] SPEAKER_01: So from our perspective, we're very focused on clinical adoption and clinical education.
[19:52] SPEAKER_01: Please let it be known. Electroencephalography, which is the foundational hardware that we're leveraging.
[19:57] SPEAKER_01: It's been around for decades. It's not brand new. And there's a lot of people that have predefined opinions.
[20:04] SPEAKER_01: The fact that our chief science officer was capable of finding a way and an application for this technology that truly adds significant objective value to different stakeholders.
[20:16] SPEAKER_01: And then figured out a way to deliver that information in a very intuitive and easy to read, you know, report.
[20:22] SPEAKER_01: That is what has allowed us to accelerate early in that clinical adoption and understanding.
[20:29] SPEAKER_01: But my belief is that we still have years ahead of us of educating policy makers, decision makers at different healthcare organizations, the credible workforce that have their boots on the ground within the healthcare systems across the world.
[20:44] SPEAKER_01: That's a barrier for us. I think aside from that, as a young company that plans on having a lot of important data transferring through cloud, I see time and time again shortfalls of other companies with data breaches inside our attacks.
[20:59] SPEAKER_01: We have an incredible team of people that are focused on those issues now. They are not a concern for us today because it's simply not something that we're vulnerable to.
[21:10] SPEAKER_01: But we will in the very near future, very near future. So it's very important for us to have a proactive approach on that front.
[21:16] SPEAKER_01: So I think for us, we want to make sure that we're very, very, very good at protecting our clients data.
[21:22] SPEAKER_01: And then I want to make sure that we are very, very good at educating the people that we are trying to empower to be able to do even better than they do today.
[21:32] SPEAKER_00: The patients, the people that you're trying to empower.
[21:35] SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, actually, from our perspective, of course, I mean, we're all here for the patients. And that's really where we started.
[21:42] SPEAKER_01: It's the thing that inspires us the most. The thing that inspires us very soon after that is empowering the clinicians.
[21:53] SPEAKER_01: A lot of people look past, you know, there are some very telling statistics in specific areas of healthcare. And if you actually look at occupational therapy and neurology and people who are dealing with the brain,
[22:05] SPEAKER_01: there is a higher, a higher probability of anxiety, depression, stress in these people because they are not given the tools to do a job that deserves very good tools to do.
[22:19] SPEAKER_01: So as much as we are absolutely here to empower the patient, our approach here is to actually empower the clinicians and allow for them to empower the patients.
[22:33] SPEAKER_01: This is an ecosystem we're simply trying to be part of it. That makes sense.
[22:37] SPEAKER_00: What's the best piece of advice that you've ever received?
[22:40] SPEAKER_01: The best piece of advice. Well, I will be honest with something that pops into my mind immediately. And the truth is, I'm very lucky, really. And I probably didn't fully acknowledge how lucky I was until the last couple of years of my life here.
[22:55] SPEAKER_01: But I've been surrounded by an incredible group of people from the very beginning. So I think that I've received a lot of very good advice. Now, there is one thing that stands out.
[23:06] SPEAKER_01: It's actually from my last boss that, you know, I was upset to have to disappoint, quit my job and move back from Manhattan to the Hamilton to do this.
[23:17] SPEAKER_01: He said something to me and I still say to my team almost daily. And that is keep it simple. Make it happen.
[23:26] SPEAKER_00: So you move back from Manhattan, like a corporate job in Manhattan to do this. That's a big leap of faith.
[23:33] SPEAKER_01: It was massive. Yeah, it was massive. I'll be honest, you know, where I was in my career, I was very happy.
[23:40] SPEAKER_01: I had accelerated through, I worked for the same organization for about four years and accelerated year over year.
[23:46] SPEAKER_01: Started in Toronto on the client side of an ad agency and found myself managing client development across the US network in four years. It was honest. It was a heck of a ride.
[23:55] SPEAKER_01: And I'll tell you, and this is the truth. And this is when you go back, you know, I don't believe. I really never believed that things happened for a reason.
[24:02] SPEAKER_01: But I find that month over month or year over year now, I have to really question whether I believe that or not.
[24:08] SPEAKER_01: Because it was actually one of the easiest decisions I've ever made. But on from the outside, I get it was one of the most risk centric, crazy decisions I've ever made.
[24:22] SPEAKER_01: But it all bowed down to a phone call to phone calls. One from my father telling me, hey, just, you know, I'm going to stop trying to commercialize.
[24:31] SPEAKER_01: I've been doing this for many decades more than he wants me to admit on this interview right now. And he just said, I can't do it.
[24:40] SPEAKER_01: And that was the first phone call. And that is the only truly sleepless night I've had in my life.
[24:45] SPEAKER_01: Because I was thinking about what if, you know, fast forward if I were to be blessed to have a the cliched deathbed moment, I believe this would be the thing that would harm me is not taking a chance on my father.
[24:57] SPEAKER_01: Because so many people have and so many people have told me throughout my entire life that he is destined to make a big impact on this world.
[25:05] SPEAKER_01: And the second phone call was my mother, believe it or not, who more or less said, James, what do you have to lose?
[25:12] SPEAKER_01: What's the worst thing that happens if this fails? And my answer after three days of thinking was I'd have to go find a job, which was something I already had and something I felt like I could go back and find again if I needed to.
[25:23] SPEAKER_01: I had a strong network. I had incredible group of friends and colleagues that I believe I could kind of lean on, but it was a big move.
[25:30] SPEAKER_01: It was certainly I'd never lived in Hamilton before. And so to go from literally grand central station being my subway station stop to living in my father's basement for a couple of months at the age of 30.
[25:44] SPEAKER_01: There were definitely a lot of moments of what have I done and why am I here?
[25:51] SPEAKER_01: And the truth is, every now and then he still asked for himself that, but I'll be honest it is very few and far between now.
[25:56] SPEAKER_01: I think that we've got the right momentum and we have the right team. I love going to work every day and working with my team and solving problems daily every single day provides new challenges.
[26:05] SPEAKER_01: So it was a tough decision on the outside, but truly when you boiled at that, it's one of the easiest decisions I've ever made because I knew it was the right thing.
[26:14] SPEAKER_00: I was an entrepreneur as well. I understand that. So what do you think the best thing about being an entrepreneur is?
[26:21] SPEAKER_01: Onto me.
[26:23] SPEAKER_01: You know, I have listened to a number of your other interviews and I actually I'm forgetting the name of the woman, but they said this, but I couldn't I could not agree more.
[26:34] SPEAKER_01: And it sounds very selfish and it sounds ecotistical, but it's not.
[26:37] SPEAKER_01: I do believe entrepreneurs are wired differently and I do believe that they are not fulfilled until they are essentially walking along a tightrope surrounded by risk and in control or completely out of control, but at least the one doing it.
[26:53] SPEAKER_01: So the specific thing that I heard in one of your other interviews just is absolutely how I believe which was, you know, I loved my previous job, but at the end of the day, I was still executing someone else's vision.
[27:05] SPEAKER_01: Now, Boxner, I get to execute the vision we've built together and that is simply the most fulfilling thing I could ever imagine. And the fact that it actually we are genuinely trying to do something that will add value tangibly to a health care system or all health care systems.
[27:24] SPEAKER_01: And so, for me, I think the best part is that autonomy and that ability to execute our own vision and honestly, sweat it out a little bit because I'm sure you can appreciate being an entrepreneur yourself.
[27:38] SPEAKER_01: The pressure is still there, but it's a different type of pressure. It's not the pressure of someone looming.
[27:47] SPEAKER_01: The pressure of, if I don't do this, it won't happen. There is no one else to go. And there's something so thrilling about that. I think it's fair to say that, you know, my entire team says this and certainly I want to make a point of shouting out my other co-founder Kimberly Elliott, who also happens to be my partner in life of five years and say that, you know, for us, I think it's a great thing to do.
[28:14] SPEAKER_01: It's just truly an absolute thrill to be able to actually execute this vision together and spend every day with people that you love and people that you trust and respect and people that you know will give it 100%.
[28:30] SPEAKER_01: So that's what's fun is just a type of output that you get from an entrepreneurial environment when you get it right is what we've realized.
[28:39] SPEAKER_01: It is so exciting and captivating and it's really hard to not, you know, get real fired up and go to work aggressively every day, right? So it's probably somewhat locked for us to have the team that we have, but I see it across the board and other groups as well.
[28:58] SPEAKER_01: So there really is just something fun about that.
[29:00] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, totally agree.
[29:02] SPEAKER_01: It was a bit of a ramble. I'll get it.
[29:04] SPEAKER_00: Not really.
[29:05] SPEAKER_01: That's for that.
[29:06] SPEAKER_00: No worries. So we're going to move on to some rapid fire questions and you probably heard these and if you listen to some of our interviews.
[29:14] SPEAKER_01: You want quick concise answers correct.
[29:16] SPEAKER_00: I do. Yeah, you know what's coming.
[29:18] SPEAKER_01: Fire away.
[29:20] SPEAKER_00: So if you weren't doing what you're doing for work now, what would you be doing instead?
[29:25] SPEAKER_01: If I'd never taken this shot, I would still be working hopefully honestly for the previous employer of mine.
[29:32] SPEAKER_01: Probably doing relatively well.
[29:35] SPEAKER_01: Probably still living in Manhattan.
[29:38] SPEAKER_01: That is that is my answer.
[29:40] SPEAKER_01: I do believe I would have been doing that.
[29:42] SPEAKER_01: I was very passionate about that. It was not easy to leave.
[29:45] SPEAKER_01: I felt like I was leaving a family. So that is what I would be doing.
[29:48] Speaker UNKNOWN:
[29:49] SPEAKER_01: Book your eating.
[29:51] SPEAKER_01: Crossing the chasm.
[29:53] SPEAKER_01: If you don't know it, I highly recommend it.
[29:55] SPEAKER_01: It's an incredibly good read.
[29:59] SPEAKER_01: I think it's Jeffrey Moore.
[30:02] SPEAKER_01: But crossing the chasm, what I'll tell you right now is that that book is actually fantastic and if anyone is starting a company, specifically in tech.
[30:11] SPEAKER_01: But even if you're not looking in tech, I highly recommend that.
[30:15] SPEAKER_01: And another book that's always kind of on the go for me.
[30:18] SPEAKER_01: I've read it a number of times now is zero to one by Peter Teal.
[30:21] SPEAKER_01: I think that's also an incredible read specifically for anyone who's trying to create something brand new.
[30:26] SPEAKER_01: So something that something disruptive, you know, it's a great read.
[30:30] SPEAKER_01: But yes, crossing the chasm is all about the different stages of growth.
[30:33] SPEAKER_01: And it really highlights some of the key areas where companies fail.
[30:37] SPEAKER_01: And so by keeping reading that and acknowledging where we should fail, then hopefully we just cross the chasm.
[30:43] SPEAKER_00: Are you a morning person or a night person?
[30:46] SPEAKER_01: Definitely a night person.
[30:48] SPEAKER_00: Really?
[30:49] SPEAKER_01: Yes.
[30:49] SPEAKER_00: Cool.
[30:50] SPEAKER_00: If you had to pick one word to describe yourself, what would it be and why?
[30:55] SPEAKER_01: I think it's passionate.
[30:57] SPEAKER_01: I hear it often in good terms and bad terms.
[31:00] SPEAKER_01: Oh, your passion is great.
[31:02] SPEAKER_01: You know, but I think it's passion.
[31:04] SPEAKER_01: I am very passionate.
[31:06] SPEAKER_01: I believe in what I'm doing.
[31:09] SPEAKER_01: I enjoy life.
[31:11] SPEAKER_01: And I think everyone around me knows that.
[31:14] SPEAKER_01: But on the flip side, if there's an issue or there's something that upset to me, you know, I wear my passion on my sleeve.
[31:20] SPEAKER_01: I'll tell you right now, I'm a massive sports fan.
[31:23] SPEAKER_01: I have always kind of spent my career with the chip on the shoulder mentality, always having to prove someone wrong or right.
[31:33] SPEAKER_01: Which is both good and bad.
[31:35] SPEAKER_01: And I think in, you know, because I kind of make my way through my 30s here, I'm starting to balance that out of it, but passion is the answer.
[31:43] SPEAKER_00: What's keeping you happy?
[31:45] SPEAKER_01: I'm really excited about what's going on.
[31:48] SPEAKER_01: You know, you'll know this building a business is like, let's take, for example, like weightlifting.
[31:55] SPEAKER_01: You can do it for a year.
[31:57] SPEAKER_01: And you know, it is not uniform progress.
[32:00] SPEAKER_01: There are times when you plateau.
[32:02] SPEAKER_01: There are times maybe even when you take steps backwards.
[32:05] SPEAKER_01: But I'm really excited with the ratio of plateau steps or back steps to forward steps for Boxner over the last 12 months.
[32:14] SPEAKER_01: I think we are moving quite fast.
[32:17] SPEAKER_01: I am starting to really understand the concept of busting at the seams.
[32:20] SPEAKER_01: I thought I knew what that meant, you know, six months ago.
[32:23] SPEAKER_01: I know what it means now, and probably six months from now, I'll be saying I didn't know what it was now, right?
[32:28] SPEAKER_01: So I'm very excited about what's going on.
[32:31] SPEAKER_01: I'm excited to, you know, think about the future.
[32:34] SPEAKER_01: That's really exciting work going on with the number of professional sports leagues across North America.
[32:39] SPEAKER_01: So that specifically keeps me up because again, as I mentioned, I'm a master sports fan.
[32:43] SPEAKER_01: I'd love to be able to get in there and help athletes again, take back their brain health and also work on performance just like they do with the rest of their bodies.
[32:50] SPEAKER_01: So I think that's the sort of stuff that keeps me up.
[32:52] SPEAKER_01: And I will say there was a time in my life where only negative things kept me up.
[32:58] SPEAKER_01: These days, it's only positive things.
[32:59] SPEAKER_01: And I think that's a result and an outcome of the whole concept of executing your ambition.
[33:05] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's an incredible shift.
[33:06] SPEAKER_01: Yes, it is.
[33:08] SPEAKER_00: And staying up because you're excited. That's great.
[33:11] SPEAKER_00: What's your favorite place in the world?
[33:14] SPEAKER_01: I heard this one this morning.
[33:15] SPEAKER_01: I'm going to be on the interviews.
[33:15] SPEAKER_01: I thought about it.
[33:16] SPEAKER_01: The truth is my gut response is somewhere in the Ionian off the coast of Greece, preferably eating some pistachios and a nice light logger.
[33:27] SPEAKER_01: I went there with some family when I was 16.
[33:31] SPEAKER_01: I grew up in Hellefax, Nova Scotia.
[33:32] SPEAKER_01: I grew up as a sailor.
[33:34] SPEAKER_01: We sailed around there.
[33:35] SPEAKER_01: I was so lucky to do that.
[33:36] SPEAKER_01: And it's literally, I mean, it was over half of my life ago.
[33:40] SPEAKER_01: And I still think about that regularly.
[33:42] SPEAKER_01: So I'd have to say that in that area.
[33:44] SPEAKER_01: But aside from that, I will tell you right now, I'm sitting in one of the greatest cities in the world, which is Toronto.
[33:51] SPEAKER_01: Not to be misunderstood that I think Hamilton is one of the most underrated cities in Canada.
[33:56] SPEAKER_01: And a great place to build a business by, I'd say, someone agrees, or right here at home.
[34:01] SPEAKER_00: What are three non-negotiables that have to happen in your morning routine?
[34:07] SPEAKER_01: I could probably ask others and they'd be able to answer this better.
[34:11] SPEAKER_01: But number one is definitely coffee.
[34:14] SPEAKER_01: Number two is always like to get a quick snapshot of the landscape in the world.
[34:19] SPEAKER_01: So I like to check my new sources.
[34:21] SPEAKER_01: I used to be a news jockey.
[34:23] SPEAKER_01: I'm not anymore.
[34:23] SPEAKER_01: I'm kind of over it.
[34:24] SPEAKER_01: But I do like to keep my finger on the pulse from a tech perspective, from an economic perspective.
[34:32] SPEAKER_01: And just start to essentially speak the language of all the people we're going to go and ask to give us money in the near future.
[34:40] SPEAKER_01: So that's one.
[34:40] SPEAKER_01: And then the last one.
[34:42] SPEAKER_01: The last one is I really need.
[34:43] SPEAKER_01: I like, I need 10 minutes of walking actually.
[34:47] SPEAKER_01: So I live pretty close to our office right now.
[34:49] SPEAKER_01: But I always make a point of getting that walk in.
[34:51] SPEAKER_01: And I think that's something we're getting that blood flow and just starting to think the the minds and the right spot.
[34:56] SPEAKER_01: And so that's it.
[34:58] SPEAKER_00: It's important to do something else to let your kind of your mind disconnect.
[35:03] SPEAKER_01: Right.
[35:04] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, just like you know, get up, get coffee, connect disconnects and then get at it.
[35:08] SPEAKER_01: But as you tell you,
[35:10] SPEAKER_01: the reality is that the three must have are essentially coping mechanisms.
[35:13] SPEAKER_01: Because I am not a morning person.
[35:17] SPEAKER_00: Last but not least, and I know you've heard this before.
[35:20] SPEAKER_00: And there's a small tropical island in the middle of the ocean with only one phone booth and no internet.
[35:27] SPEAKER_00: We drop you off there with no technology at all.
[35:30] SPEAKER_00: At any time you can use the phone on the island to call boats can pick you up.
[35:34] SPEAKER_00: How long would you last do what would you do until you made that call?
[35:39] SPEAKER_01: Funny.
[35:40] SPEAKER_01: Funny.
[35:41] SPEAKER_01: Funny.
[35:42] SPEAKER_01: I had a immediate answer and I'm actually shifting it.
[35:44] SPEAKER_01: You know, my mentality.
[35:46] SPEAKER_01: I could live there for the rest of my life.
[35:48] SPEAKER_01: I actually could do that.
[35:50] SPEAKER_01: But I'm going to assume that all of the realities of my life exist.
[35:54] SPEAKER_01: Which means that you know, people I love in my life are also in this scenario,
[35:58] SPEAKER_01: which means I pick the phone up immediately and come home.
[36:01] SPEAKER_01: So it would be a valid.
[36:02] SPEAKER_01: So maybe the real me again myself a couple weeks, just unwind, you know,
[36:06] SPEAKER_01: catch some sign and go for a couple of swims.
[36:08] SPEAKER_01: You know, that's the truth.
[36:11] SPEAKER_01: But in reality,
[36:13] SPEAKER_01: I want to come home to my loved ones as soon as possible.
[36:17] SPEAKER_00: I was a great answer.
[36:19] SPEAKER_00: So your other answer though was to stay there like full time forever.
[36:23] SPEAKER_02: I know.
[36:24] SPEAKER_00: So as long as you could bring your loved ones with you, right?
[36:27] SPEAKER_01: I mean, if you give me like even a handful of people, I think I can be fine.
[36:30] SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I mean, I really am an only child.
[36:32] SPEAKER_01: I enjoy my solitude.
[36:35] SPEAKER_01: I always do need it.
[36:37] SPEAKER_01: It's definitely going to talk about, you know, must have.
[36:39] SPEAKER_01: That's one for me.
[36:41] SPEAKER_01: So I think I do just fine in that environment, especially to the sun and sand and suns and credible.
[36:46] SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'd love to go there right now.
[36:49] SPEAKER_01: But yeah, no, I mean, the thing is, I'm very lucky to find people that I actually want to come home to, right?
[36:56] SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I wouldn't ask too long without some of those people.
[37:01] SPEAKER_00: Well, James, thank you very much for coming on Candace Podcast.
[37:04] SPEAKER_00: Is there anything else that you wanted to share with our viewers and listeners?
[37:07] SPEAKER_00: Hopefully we sign off.
[37:09] SPEAKER_01: Maybe I'll well, if you're a young, even younger than Boxner or entrepreneur,
[37:14] SPEAKER_01: please know it's as hard as you think it is.
[37:19] SPEAKER_01: Everyone tells you that you'll figure it out.
[37:21] SPEAKER_01: And it's just like being at an adult, you don't.
[37:24] SPEAKER_01: You're just constantly hoping.
[37:26] SPEAKER_01: So keep at it.
[37:28] SPEAKER_01: Don't give up and find like-minded people that want to execute that vision with you.
[37:35] SPEAKER_01: Aside from that, let's say I want to say thank you so much for this opportunity.
[37:39] SPEAKER_01: As I said, before we started here, this is my first organized interview.
[37:44] SPEAKER_01: And obviously as Boxner open dresses, I hope that it's not my last.
[37:48] SPEAKER_01: And for anyone listening, please visit boxnero.com to learn more.
[37:52] SPEAKER_01: It's V-O-X-N-E-U-R-O.
[37:55] SPEAKER_01: You can also follow us on social media.
[37:58] SPEAKER_01: And I think that's all I have.
[37:59] SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much, Leslie.
[38:01] SPEAKER_00: Okay, thank you so much, James.
[38:03] SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening to Candace Podcast.
[38:05] SPEAKER_00: Like, comment, and subscribe to all our channels to get the latest podcasts from entrepreneurs across Canada.
