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TRANSCRIPTION WITH SPEAKERS
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[00:00] SPEAKER_02: Welcome to Canada's podcast.
[00:05] SPEAKER_02: Hello, I'm Mario Tonigusi with Calgary's podcast on Canada's podcast network.
[00:11] SPEAKER_02: Joining me today is Hisu Cho, who is co-founder and managing director of Sabi Mind in Calgary.
[00:18] SPEAKER_02: Thanks for joining us today.
[00:20] SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me, Mario.
[00:21] SPEAKER_02: Well, let me just start by asking you like tell me a little bit about what Sabi Mind is and what you guys do.
[00:28] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the primary mandate of Sabi Mind is to open up access to psychedelic and assisted therapies with the initial clinical focus around using ketamine assisted psychotherapy to help individuals with mental health and chronic pain condition.
[00:42] SPEAKER_02: Okay, when did it start?
[00:45] SPEAKER_01: We started the project back in 2020, October of 2020.
[00:49] SPEAKER_01: The first few months were kind of figuring out the latinal land of the landscape of the psychedelic medicine and industry.
[00:57] SPEAKER_01: Followed by a little bit of planning in terms of what our offer and specific model looked like.
[01:02] SPEAKER_01: We recently opened our doors here in Calgary in March of 2022 with plans to open in Edmonton and Victoria as well.
[01:10] SPEAKER_02: Okay, super. And give me a little bit of the why and the history behind that of why this was started.
[01:18] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, a few of the co founders have a bit of lived experience with the complications and problems that come with mental health.
[01:26] SPEAKER_01: We had a close friend and mentor.
[01:29] SPEAKER_01: The loss is like the suicide in 2019 and we kind of collectively made a promise that we need to contribute to the mental health space.
[01:36] SPEAKER_01: You know, through our own personal healing journeys, we found the psychedelic assisted therapies kind of ecosystem and we, you know, made it a mandate of ours to contribute to the space in terms of in terms of opening up access to that community.
[01:49] SPEAKER_02: Okay, and can you talk a little bit about the name like what is that coming? What is the name signify?
[01:54] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, savvy draws inspiration from the Japanese philosophy, Abby, Abby.
[01:58] SPEAKER_01: As a few principles that, you know, we've incorporated into our own philosophy, one of them being finding beauty and imperfection.
[02:06] SPEAKER_01: But I think the one that resonates the most is that savvy personified is the art for many of damage.
[02:13] SPEAKER_01: And what we look to do for mental health conditions is what's part pain is, you know, take the time to.
[02:20] SPEAKER_01: Support the individual through their own mending process and through that process, hopefully they find the inherent beauty and the journeys that individuals go through and the struggles that, you know, we all face today today.
[02:31] SPEAKER_02: Okay, he so can you talk a little bit about it just exactly what what you're offering in terms of somebody that walks in your door.
[02:40] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we have a pretty unique wrap around care model that involves a multidisciplinary team of healthcare professionals on the front lines.
[02:48] SPEAKER_01: We have physicians, we have a psychiatrist and anesthesiologist that take part in the intake process as well as a part of the patients journey throughout the entire kind of treatment program.
[02:58] SPEAKER_01: We also have a few psychotherapists that come in the form of psychologists and social workers as well as registered nurses.
[03:04] SPEAKER_01: They all kind of contribute to the individual's program in different parts.
[03:11] SPEAKER_01: The program is broken down into three categories is a preparation discovery and integration space.
[03:16] SPEAKER_01: The preparation component takes into account all of the medical consultations psychiatric consultations as well as a bit of preparation psychotherapy.
[03:26] SPEAKER_01: This is really significant in terms of managing expectations for the clients as well as just preparing themselves for the type of experiences that they're going to have in the actual discovery sessions themselves.
[03:38] SPEAKER_01: The discovery component is specifically where the ketamine is administered.
[03:42] SPEAKER_01: We hope to provide a conducive environment where individuals are able to explore their psyche on a different level.
[03:50] SPEAKER_01: And through that process, hopefully find some insights that help shift some of how they frame their mental health and chronic pain conditions.
[03:58] SPEAKER_01: The last part is where we hope to hopefully make some lasting change.
[04:03] SPEAKER_01: And that's the integration therapy component where while supported through a psychotherapist, the individual is able to take these insights and hopefully into their lives and find some meaningful change and some transformational experiences.
[04:18] SPEAKER_02: So again, maybe walk me through this. So what an individual takes what's that called.
[04:25] SPEAKER_01: ketamine. So ketamine is a general anesthetic that's been used in the OR and ER for many, many years now what they found through not only the practice, but the significant science and public patients is that ketamine has immediate antidepressant effects that can last anywhere from two to four weeks from a biomedical type of interaction that happens in the body.
[04:49] SPEAKER_01: Now we're leveraging that interaction specifically in a psychopheretic model to hopefully do some of those benefits as well as you know explore what some of these individuals may find in those ketamine sessions.
[05:04] SPEAKER_02: And what exactly is it maybe had you described it so I get it.
[05:10] SPEAKER_02: And where is it scores?
[05:12] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, so it's a just associative by nature. Obviously there are some anesthetic qualities to it as well.
[05:19] SPEAKER_01: But the dosing levels that we're playing with and introducing to clients is is a level where we're allowing the individuals to maybe explore the inner consciousness a little more.
[05:30] SPEAKER_01: Everything that we provide in the clinic is to allow the individuals to go inward.
[05:36] SPEAKER_01: And the ketamine is stored in a safe and a bolt. It is stored on site in a medically approved fashion.
[05:44] SPEAKER_01: You know ketamine is available through all pharmacies. It's used in hospital settings. It's used in God their clinics as well.
[05:50] SPEAKER_01: The way we're using it is considered off label. But you know we're seeing a significant opportunity with ketamine kind of laying the foundation for the other psychedelic medicines that will eventually become unilaterally available through the medical framework.
[06:06] SPEAKER_01: We're seeing a big movement with MDMA in the United States. And obviously there's been a few exemptions for psilocybin access here in Canada as well.
[06:14] SPEAKER_01: And so we're essentially laying the groundwork. I think if we're forward looking a little bit there's an opportunity to use different tools for different situations.
[06:23] SPEAKER_01: You know as you and I both know mental health care is not a one size fits all model. And so what we're looking to do is create a bit of a foundation in the community and an understanding of individuals that there are these novel treatments that have shown efficacy.
[06:36] SPEAKER_01: And just to create a dialogue and increase access as well.
[06:41] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know there's also things like mushrooms out there like what you know and I've done a done a number of stories and interviews on that as well.
[06:51] SPEAKER_02: Why is do you think at this time this whole field of psychedelics is is is growing?
[06:58] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think psychedelics has this deep deep roots when it comes to just the history of humanity. I think if you look at many indigenous cultures, there's you know recorded history of practices just with plant based medicines.
[07:12] SPEAKER_01: I think the reason why we're seeing a shift for you know innovative treatments not only in psychedelic space, but just through other avenues and channels for mental health is that one we need more.
[07:21] SPEAKER_01: And solutions in the system not to say that the existing framework isn't supporting the individual.
[07:29] SPEAKER_01: Things the more solutions, the more resources, the more services we have, the better chance individuals have of finding something that works for them.
[07:36] SPEAKER_01: You know we all can understand the implications of COVID-19 on everyone's kind of general health and welfare.
[07:42] SPEAKER_01: And so I think there is bit of a paradigm shift happening where there's an increased level of awareness acknowledgement with I think individuals own mental health, but just a general sense of you know individuals at large in the community as well.
[07:58] SPEAKER_02: Now we know that you know setting up a business can be a chore a difficult task for people who haven't done it before.
[08:09] SPEAKER_02: Where did you find help resources inspiration to actually start a new business?
[08:17] SPEAKER_01: It's been a journey Mario, it's been a journey and you know the you know kind of mantra that keeps coming back is that it takes a village and it's taken a community that has been so supportive.
[08:31] SPEAKER_01: And we're still humbled and blessed by everyone's kind of not only engaged with what we're doing, but they're willingness to just support.
[08:38] SPEAKER_01: And I think early days when this was just an idea and and something that we're talking about you know in the office.
[08:44] SPEAKER_01: We weren't sure we weren't sure what the community was going to say we weren't sure if they were ready to kind of explore these types of innovative treatments.
[08:52] SPEAKER_01: And what we found is that as soon as we started talking about it in our own personal networks, there was significant amount of curiosity.
[08:58] SPEAKER_01: And I think that curiosity is what drives us to ensure that you know we're always looking at how to tailor these types of services and to ensure that our practices are best in class.
[09:11] SPEAKER_01: You know for me personally I have a bit of an obsession with hyper fixation once I find an affinity to work something I dive full in.
[09:21] SPEAKER_01: And so that first six months eight months was just about getting a download and doing a lot of research on you know what was existing in the space what had come before what is working.
[09:30] SPEAKER_01: And what is the future potentially look like in terms of opportunities.
[09:34] SPEAKER_01: And through that process obviously we've met some very brilliant individuals in the space who have been so gracious with their time and resources and you know it's a never ending process.
[09:43] SPEAKER_01: I think the work in progress kind of mantra that exists in startup and entrepreneurial culture is validated through our our lived experience.
[09:52] SPEAKER_01: But you know at the end of the day it's the people the people who drive this business through their one or one interactions with not only the clients and patients, but internally and within the community as well.
[10:03] SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
[10:04] SPEAKER_02: What do you like what do you like about being an entrepreneur.
[10:12] SPEAKER_00: Honestly, where are you?
[10:13] SPEAKER_00: I don't like a lot of it.
[10:16] SPEAKER_01: Okay, you know it has its pros and cons.
[10:19] SPEAKER_01: I think for me, you know even participating in podcasts like this is tough because I don't like being in the limelight.
[10:26] SPEAKER_01: I think you know if anything the team deserves all the credit and they deserve to be you know front facing what I do.
[10:33] SPEAKER_01: I do really enjoy about the entrepreneurial spirit and committee is that how supportive it is.
[10:39] SPEAKER_01: I think there is this underlying recognition and respect that entrepreneurs have for one another because you know there's a lot of risk involved and individuals are taking a chance for something they believe in.
[10:51] SPEAKER_01: And I think that demands an immense amount of respect.
[10:54] SPEAKER_01: And so you know through those types of interactions, I feel inspired you know every day I'm meeting someone new it's not for you in a different space and you know it is motivating to see other individuals have taking initiative and and you know look to create something that is.
[11:10] SPEAKER_01: You know meaningful to that but hopefully meaningful to the people that they serve.
[11:14] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know considering your journey into this and a new business if you had a friend that came to you get all asked you.
[11:23] SPEAKER_02: But you know what's your best advice for me if I want to start up a business what would you tell them don't do it.
[11:31] SPEAKER_01: No, no, no, I think I think think long and hard and pragmatically and critically about what you are looking to do.
[11:40] SPEAKER_01: I think from a value standpoint that's the first thing to explore your why why you are participating in what you are thinking of doing.
[11:50] SPEAKER_01: And then what value it adds to the community you know after you've established that internally for yourself.
[11:55] SPEAKER_01: I think it's about finding the right people and so finding like minded individuals for a value aligned for some for most.
[12:02] SPEAKER_01: And then you know hopefully through that process and finding those value-oriented individuals you find incredible smart and brilliant individuals as well that can add their expertise to what you're doing.
[12:13] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, over over the over the time there that you've been involved in this and maybe even before that.
[12:20] SPEAKER_02: But there have been any business leaders business owners entrepreneurs that inspired you that you kind of thought were good examples of what you can do.
[12:36] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and a friend and mentor I lost to who said in 2019 was actually probably the most influential person in my life, not only personally but professionally.
[12:46] SPEAKER_01: And something that he left with me is just this immense amount of care he had for the people around him both professionally and personally and how he was able to you know use that level of care to ensure that people felt one safe and supported.
[13:05] SPEAKER_01: But also you know create a space for individuals to explore what they wanted out of life and the situations that they were in.
[13:12] SPEAKER_01: And so I hold those lessons here and dear and I hope that I am you know filtering all of my decision making through that lens.
[13:19] SPEAKER_02: Okay, you Sue let's chat a little bit about yourself.
[13:23] SPEAKER_02: What were you doing before this?
[13:25] SPEAKER_01: I said the last 10 years in the hospitality space with an beverage was something that was an immense passion of mine and it was a career for a long time.
[13:35] SPEAKER_01: I worked for a hospitality group in Calgary here called the Concord Group and I was super super grateful for all of the opportunities ever given to me as well as you know just the lessons I've learned.
[13:48] SPEAKER_01: I've done every job onto the sun and the tail end I was running a few of the venues and you know the hospitality space is something that's still very near and dear in my heart and we've actually brought in a layer of you know the experience curation component of the hospitality community to what we do on the medical side of things.
[14:05] SPEAKER_01: I think we're exploring that intersection I think we're you know taking everything and filtering through a you know legal medical lens to ensure safety and efficacy but also bringing in a layer of experience curation and we're finding the sweet spot where you know clients are able to feel supported and safe in a very you know detailed environment and a very calming environment.
[14:27] SPEAKER_01: And and shelter that and add a bit of you know medical professionals alongside it I think there's a lot of opportunity to explore the implications of that.
[14:36] SPEAKER_02: Now I know Concord Group has a number of establishments throughout the city I'm just curious what ones were you at.
[14:44] SPEAKER_01: I was with the I started my my career there with the local brand and then moved over to the nationals I've done the wild horse blue intent I spent a brief period at Lulu bars well and yeah.
[14:57] SPEAKER_01: You know I've kind of seen it all I also participate in the Burburner which was one of my favorite venues that they've you know put together over the years and you know it's really exciting to see the growth that they're going through as well I think you know they've done an exceptional job of kind of bringing new interesting concepts to the city of cabri and yeah who does to them and excited to see what they do in the next few years.
[15:21] SPEAKER_02: Yeah okay we all know that you know being an entrepreneur is time consuming you know it's almost like 24 seven you're on the job you're doing it or thinking about it right.
[15:38] SPEAKER_02: Do you think you have any work like balance.
[15:42] SPEAKER_01: It's an ongoing battle you know I think when you you're lucky enough to find a meaningful pursuit that you know fills your cup on the daily it's hard to you know set some boundaries when it when it's providing you so much for me personally in terms of self care and ensuring that I do have that work with you know I'm a I'm a foodie at heart I love going out to dining and dining with a friends and family I think experiencing new types of foods and cuisines is something that is a passion of mine and it brings you to the city of the city.
[16:10] SPEAKER_01: I think I'm really looking at a lot of a lot of comfort and care.
[16:13] SPEAKER_01: You know I love physical activity you know I love I love the gym I love all aspects of getting in a sweat at when when possible.
[16:22] SPEAKER_01: So those two things carry me through you know I think forward looking a little bit as as Sabi hopefully you know stabilizes a little bit.
[16:32] SPEAKER_01: I think I'll definitely explore you know incorporating some additional hobbies in my life.
[16:38] SPEAKER_00: Any thoughts of like what.
[16:41] SPEAKER_00: Great question.
[16:42] SPEAKER_00: Not yet.
[16:44] SPEAKER_00: I've been meaning.
[16:45] SPEAKER_00: So we're in that.
[16:48] SPEAKER_01: I've been meeting to pick up this game called go I don't know if you're familiar with it but it's a board game it's an ancient Asian board game.
[16:56] SPEAKER_01: And I've been meaning to kind of teach myself how to play and maybe hopefully find a community that I can kind of explore with that looks like as well.
[17:04] SPEAKER_01: So.
[17:05] SPEAKER_02: Okay.
[17:06] SPEAKER_02: And your heritage is is from where?
[17:10] SPEAKER_00: I'm Korean.
[17:11] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[17:11] SPEAKER_02: Korean.
[17:12] SPEAKER_02: Okay.
[17:13] SPEAKER_02: Do you get any of the inspiration in terms of what you're doing now from there like and what's happening in the say career what's that?
[17:25] SPEAKER_01: Definitely.
[17:26] SPEAKER_01: I think I think I draw a lot of inspiration especially from an aesthetic and philosophy standpoint from Asian cultures, Korean Japanese.
[17:35] SPEAKER_01: You know it's been recent in my life where I've kind of reconnected with those roots.
[17:40] SPEAKER_01: The last time I was in career was in 2019 right before the pandemic and it was the first time where I really.
[17:44] SPEAKER_01: I felt the impact of my heritage and my bloodline and where I come from and I definitely do you know try to draw inspiration in a respectful manner.
[17:54] SPEAKER_01: As much as possible.
[17:56] SPEAKER_02: Yeah exactly.
[17:58] SPEAKER_02: So where are you like maybe describe for me the actual setting of what you have in place for savvy.
[18:06] SPEAKER_01: You bet our our facility is located in San Alta community here in Calgary. I'm sure you're aware of.
[18:13] SPEAKER_01: It's about you know 4500 square foot purpose built facility five treatment rooms.
[18:20] SPEAKER_01: A beautiful space a lot of Asian influence in terms of the aesthetic and a lot of use of use of neutral tones and color palettes a lot of raw materials.
[18:34] SPEAKER_01: All in an effort to hopefully provide a conducive environment that is grounding.
[18:41] SPEAKER_01: And I think why we did that is a couple of reasons I think you know psychedelic experiences can be quite bright and stimulating.
[18:49] SPEAKER_01: We want to provide a space a physical space that was neutral where individuals could kind of come back down the baseline and also prep it in a neutral state prior to these experiences.
[18:59] SPEAKER_01: And so everything that we do at the clinic is is you know geared towards that are calming effect.
[19:07] SPEAKER_02: Okay super that well he's who I really appreciate you taking a time to join us today.
[19:13] SPEAKER_01: Mario thank you so much for your time as well.
[19:15] SPEAKER_02: All right super that was he's who show who is co founder and managing director of savvy mind.
[19:22] SPEAKER_02: I'm Mario Toniguchi with Calgary's podcast on Canada's podcast network. Thanks for joining us today.
