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TRANSCRIPTION WITH SPEAKERS
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[00:00] SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Canada's podcast.
[00:05] SPEAKER_01: Hi, this is Celine Williams hosting for Montereo for Canada's podcast.
[00:09] SPEAKER_01: My guest today is Emily O'Brien, founder and CEO of Come Back Snacks.
[00:14] SPEAKER_01: Welcome, Emily.
[00:16] SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
[00:17] SPEAKER_01: I'm excited to chat with you today and get to know more about you.
[00:22] SPEAKER_01: And because what we do is we tell a story of entrepreneurs here.
[00:25] SPEAKER_01: I'd love to know a little bit about your background and your journey to, you know, come back snacks
[00:32] SPEAKER_01: that we're at today.
[00:34] SPEAKER_00: Yes, thanks so much.
[00:35] SPEAKER_00: So I would say my journey to Come Back Snacks was slightly unconventional.
[00:40] SPEAKER_00: We love an unconventional journey.
[00:42] SPEAKER_00: That's what makes life interesting.
[00:44] SPEAKER_00: I actually started my company when I was incarcerated in federal prison.
[00:48] SPEAKER_00: And this was in 2018, actually.
[00:52] SPEAKER_00: And I started it with popcorn kernels and some stamps.
[00:58] SPEAKER_01: Popcorn.
[00:59] SPEAKER_01: Okay.
[00:59] SPEAKER_01: So how do we go from popcorn kernel, first of all?
[01:05] SPEAKER_01: I'm really curious about popcorn kernels and stamps as a starting point.
[01:09] SPEAKER_01: So I'm going to ask you about that.
[01:10] SPEAKER_01: But also, how do we go from popcorn kernels and stamps to what come back snacks is today?
[01:16] SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
[01:17] SPEAKER_00: So when I was incarcerated, I got mixed up just with the bad...
[01:21] SPEAKER_00: bad group of people in prison.
[01:23] SPEAKER_00: You know, I was an honor roll student.
[01:25] SPEAKER_00: I always had jobs, so it can happen to anyone.
[01:27] SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
[01:28] SPEAKER_00: I also had some, you know, reparations that I had to do.
[01:32] SPEAKER_00: And so when I was in prison, I knew that I could kind of make things better.
[01:35] SPEAKER_00: But I also wanted to make them better for other people because I've always been compassionate.
[01:40] SPEAKER_00: And I felt very misunderstood on, you know, why I was in there.
[01:44] SPEAKER_00: And also, I felt very stigmatized as to my capabilities after prison.
[01:52] SPEAKER_00: And so popcorn was a popular prison snack.
[01:55] SPEAKER_00: And it was also this blank canvas where people could create and use their own recipes and throughout those creation of recipes, we would have discussions about, you know, what we're going to do after.
[02:06] SPEAKER_00: And for employment specifically, and we knew that it was going to be tough based on the challenges of getting a job with the record.
[02:15] SPEAKER_00: And so popcorn, something that we shared, something that we also shared was a record.
[02:21] SPEAKER_00: And I knew that I had a bit of an entrepreneurial past.
[02:24] SPEAKER_00: I had a small social media company prior to that.
[02:27] SPEAKER_00: I decided to start a popcorn company in prison where I could employ myself and others after incarceration.
[02:33] SPEAKER_01: So I, I mean, I love the, I want to obviously being in prison.
[02:41] SPEAKER_01: This is not a positive thing. I'm not saying I love that aspect of it, but I do love the positive community and connection that comes from something that is challenging.
[02:53] SPEAKER_01: Right. I think that that, that is, that's not easy. Obviously. And there is an opportunity.
[03:01] SPEAKER_01: There was clearly an opportunity for something bigger for possibility, which I think can be really hard in challenging circumstances to see that there's anything possible.
[03:10] SPEAKER_01: Right. It becomes the weight.
[03:12] SPEAKER_01: So I love that you focused on that. And that this has become like a, it's a real business.
[03:19] SPEAKER_01: It's a, it's a big deal. It's a really cool business.
[03:22] SPEAKER_01: I mean, it is. So I'm, and I'm curious.
[03:27] SPEAKER_01: The transition from starting it in while you were incarcerated to bringing it out of that system.
[03:34] SPEAKER_01: Because and I might have misunderstood this. So please correct me if I'm wrong.
[03:38] SPEAKER_01: But what that was like and how that went for you.
[03:42] SPEAKER_01: Because my guess is that there's very specific challenges and differences right in a system outside of the system that come with taking this business idea and putting it in another, another world for lack of better way of putting it.
[04:01] SPEAKER_00: Absolutely. Absolutely. And so kind of what I did, I started to build a brand from the inside.
[04:06] SPEAKER_00: So I would kind of take all the negative things that were said about me and others like our slogan is now popcorn so good.
[04:12] SPEAKER_00: It's criminal made with conviction, kind of bringing power back.
[04:16] SPEAKER_01: But the right now, I just need to, I just need to note this. I really enjoy a little bit snarky tagline that's also true. So I'm very into that.
[04:26] SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much. And, um, and in there, I also, yeah, I read 82 books.
[04:31] SPEAKER_00: You know, I started to realize that prison reform was something that was happening as I was in there.
[04:36] SPEAKER_00: You know, if I was in 10, 15 years ago, no one had given a crop.
[04:40] SPEAKER_00: So I kind of hate to say, but I was actually in prison at the perfect time because I had, you know, I was at a point in my life where I was ready to take some
[04:49] SPEAKER_00: responsibility for some of the struggles that I'd gone through. You know, I, my weakness was substances.
[04:54] SPEAKER_00: I went through a very difficult time with that. And that was part of the reason why I was in there.
[05:00] SPEAKER_00: And, but I also knew that yeah, prison reform was something that people started to care about.
[05:03] SPEAKER_00: And so I would write articles and post get mail them out. And my business now business partner would post them online.
[05:10] SPEAKER_00: I would write letters to authors who had written books that I read.
[05:13] SPEAKER_00: I started forming relationships with volunteers that would come in and, you know, they, they would bring in crafts and stuff.
[05:21] SPEAKER_00: So I started to make these connections with the outside community while I was still inside.
[05:24] SPEAKER_00: And then when I got out, I had to live in a halfway house, which is fine. It's part of the part of the, yeah, I guess reentry process.
[05:32] SPEAKER_00: And so I started that kitchen and then I moved to my mom's kitchen. I started doing, I actually shared my story with the media.
[05:38] SPEAKER_00: And this is in the very beginning because I was like, no one's going to own this story but me.
[05:42] SPEAKER_00: And I was at a point where I was like, I know that I have a responsibility to be accountable for things that had happened.
[05:50] SPEAKER_00: Because no one else is going to do it for you, but also, and also I didn't want to suppress what had happened because I couldn't live with this secret inside of me where that someone else could just take charge of.
[06:00] SPEAKER_00: And so that was another part of it. And pretty soon we'd gotten into a commercial kitchen.
[06:06] SPEAKER_00: And then as the story started to spread tremendous support from the community started to come in.
[06:11] SPEAKER_00: So people would be, oh, do you want to table at this event? You want to come talk in my class? You know, I'm here. It's people donate labels, like print companies donate labels and what a pop someone bought a popcorn pop for someone gave us like $500 donation for marketing.
[06:27] SPEAKER_00: Right. So I like to say it was a community built business. And so since then, now it's 2023. We wanted for me to know being, being at markets and a couple of stores to, we're in over 800 stores now and we're all across the country.
[06:41] SPEAKER_00: But more importantly, we've most importantly, at least for me is that we've made significant changes.
[06:46] SPEAKER_00: We're like surrounding reintegration at the federal and provincial level with government.
[06:54] SPEAKER_01: So I'd like to, if you're, if you're okay with that, I'd like to know a little bit more about that because I think that impact.
[07:03] SPEAKER_01: Any time, any business can have that kind of positive impact, especially when it comes to, you know, I mean, there's the very, very specific stigma.
[07:17] SPEAKER_01: And I hate the word, but there's stigma and shame around incarceration around people coming back into society.
[07:25] SPEAKER_01: It is, as you said, it's really hard to get a job to find employment when you have any kind of record. And I think that there are, I think it's incredible to be able to make change and have an impact on something that people don't like to talk about.
[07:41] SPEAKER_01: Because we don't like to talk about these things. It's just that dark corner we push things into.
[07:46] SPEAKER_01: So I'd love to know a little bit more about the impact that you've had in that way.
[07:51] SPEAKER_01: Because it, you know, I recognize that the social enterprise aspect of this is clearly very important to you.
[07:58] SPEAKER_00: Absolutely. The lived experience, for sure, because whenever they get can happen to us until it does.
[08:02] SPEAKER_00: And I like to call it the proximity of forgiveness. You know, it's very easy to forgive someone that you know and someone that you care about.
[08:09] SPEAKER_00: The second you read about someone else doing it, you have no idea. And all you read about is how bad they were.
[08:13] SPEAKER_00: You have this instant hate. Right? That's sort of like the gift and the curse of the media as well.
[08:18] SPEAKER_00: It's like they can either spin you one way or the other way.
[08:21] SPEAKER_00: And so I made sure that I'm coming up this story. Like they got to know the real me. I was like, this isn't just like, oh, I'm like arrested and put in jail.
[08:28] SPEAKER_00: This is this is my life growing up. And this is how it happens. So I could actually help people.
[08:33] SPEAKER_00: And because the story was told in that way, I was was contacted by like family, like families and, and you know, kids of parents that were struggling and people all around the world are like, thank you for helping me in this way.
[08:46] SPEAKER_00: You know, they didn't necessarily go to prison, but it's all about making mistakes, but also making it come back.
[08:53] SPEAKER_00: We're we've all done things that we regret, but, but in order to make that come back, we need help, but we also have to take responsibility for ourselves as well.
[09:03] SPEAKER_01: And there's not, you know, I think that in the past few years, there's been some wonderful like Brunei Brown comes to mind wonderful work around speaking about vulnerability and and shame and things like that.
[09:15] SPEAKER_01: And I think that is incredibly important. But I think a lot of people still talk about it from a theoretical intellectual standpoint don't actually take the time to be vulnerable and share the aspects of their story that had that impact.
[09:30] SPEAKER_01: And what I hear inside of what you just said is the by you sharing your story and by you opening up and and just owning it, right? Like this is I can write my own story. I can share it in my own way.
[09:47] SPEAKER_01: That impact is tremendous. It does change people's literally changes people's lives.
[09:55] SPEAKER_00: And that's like what I like to call emotional profit to it's I find it's an essential component of running.
[10:01] SPEAKER_00: I think in running a sustainable business is like you have to be invested in the work that you do not just the profit that you make.
[10:07] SPEAKER_00: And so when you can actually see people's lives changing like this came like I think I was always like I think we're all good people, right?
[10:14] SPEAKER_00: I think we all see value in helping others because we've all needed it ourselves.
[10:20] SPEAKER_00: So doing that and working with people and even you can help people in this what we think is the smallest thing it could be a text message it can be connecting them to a resource or connecting someone to an employer or telling them like they look great or like you did this awesome right.
[10:36] SPEAKER_00: You can really change you don't have to do these grandiose gestures where you know where you're responsible for their entire life you can actually help people in small ways that actually get them on the right on a different path that can really serve as a spring more to their the next chapter of your life.
[10:51] SPEAKER_01: So I'm curious so you are an entrepreneur who is run more than one business clearly.
[11:00] SPEAKER_01: So I'm curious what you what are some of the lessons you learned either with your previous you know with your previous business that you were like this does not work with this business or that you carried through or things that looking back are like these are the things that really stand out as what I learned as an entrepreneur about myself or this journey or running a business or anything.
[11:20] Speaker UNKNOWN: So I think that you know what I'm doing in that realm.
[11:24] SPEAKER_00: I think is that everyone has something to offer.
[11:28] SPEAKER_00: You know it that's why I think working with people that had had records for example it's it's like no you don't look at the record you look at what they're capable of doing.
[11:39] SPEAKER_00: And the more that you can actually build a family environment I think that that actually makes people feel comfortable and make people want to actually continue to work with you and.
[11:48] SPEAKER_00: There's so many things out there it's like be a boss and all that stuff it's like no I don't want to be that I want to be a friend but also someone that can help you know build others up and I think there's a lot of these like saying these days that actually don't make sense in entrepreneurship right.
[12:02] SPEAKER_00: Like fake it till you make it is another one not doesn't work out well yeah being your own boss and making your own schedule and no it's if you're actually there to serve here in Tending to serve you are people are your boss right people are.
[12:20] SPEAKER_00: So telling you how they need to be helped or you know in the food space for example where we are now it's like i'm not going to make the flavor that I like it's like you're.
[12:29] SPEAKER_00: You're going to make flavors that the public want that are that will make them happier like suit like you know suit their pallets so that they want to share the taste good right so it's it's not actually all about you it's about everyone else.
[12:45] SPEAKER_01: There's a real.
[12:50] SPEAKER_01: Misrepresentation I think oftentimes an entrepreneurship of the idea that you're this like loan will for solo island doing everything on your own and a lot of entrepreneurs get really stuck in that because there's a lot of language around it right like there's there's kind of two pass that's either you know no one does this on their own and it's all about the community which is a wonderful thing.
[13:14] SPEAKER_01: But there's a lot more loud voices that are all about you know that like the Steve jobs the solo found and he's not that he was a solo founder but we focus on like a solo founder what they can do on their own and how it's one person's vision and there's a lot of that that people model or.
[13:34] SPEAKER_01: Look to an entrepreneurship and I think what you're saying is so important is that it's not it is about the people around you and when you have an eye on serving and service not only I think it feels better personally from a totally selfish it feels nice to have that impact to care about people but also.
[13:57] SPEAKER_00: So what you can do not doing it on your own you know thinking of other people it's a really great thing because we are not we're always in our own heads that's kind of like it's boring at a certain point right yeah yeah absolutely and I think the other the other thing that I've learned is like never like lose really who you are right I mean if I could do a speaking engagement sometimes I'm going to curse that's just it like I'm sorry we all swear.
[14:25] SPEAKER_00: Yeah like if we're getting arrested you and swear to you so I don't want like I'm not going to pretend to be all polished and stuff for that time because that's not true right so I think just being true to and you know I'm not sure I can like wear a color shirt and I like college shirts but sometimes I want to wear a t-shirt jeans and I'm trying to run a group of kids or even if I'm talking in front of a group of executives I'm still going to wear sneakers because that's how I feel comfortable right so I think yeah definitely not not losing who you are just trying to like.
[14:55] SPEAKER_00: Please other please other people because there are so many people there that you can help and if our and if people are giving you rules on how you on being yourself then that's not the right fit.
[15:05] SPEAKER_00: But then that's not you being yourself right that's that yeah I understand sway like okay I understand yeah maybe don't curse all the time but if you're not allowed to if everything is parental advisory then no like that's not my story is not suited for that yes like there are substances there is swearing there is no.
[15:25] SPEAKER_00: You know there's abuse there is a bunch of things that I can't help people if I can't share exactly how that happened right and I think that's where it's so important to
[15:39] SPEAKER_01: and I and Emily we have just met so I'm saying this with something that I see in you is the ability to adapt without losing yourself and I think often people don't adapt they entirely change who they are for specifically.
[15:55] SPEAKER_01: So I think that's the only way to get into the specific situations and actually lose the core maybe not the story but the core of who they are whereas I think being confident in that core and be able to adapt the external factors so like yeah maybe you don't curse in front of group of of kids.
[16:10] SPEAKER_01: Okay like that's an adaptation that I can work with because that feels appropriate and I can still be me inside of it but to be like never curse in any time in front of people if that's how you speak.
[16:22] SPEAKER_01: That kind of change with a group of adults is really different like you can lose that core of who you are because you're trying to think about like I can't be this person that is real.
[16:35] SPEAKER_01: Yeah exactly exactly.
[16:38] SPEAKER_00: That's a great way of putting it. Thank you for helping me. There we go helping each other.
[16:42] SPEAKER_01: Love that. That's what it's all about. So I'm curious.
[16:45] SPEAKER_01: I think it's I have two things I'm going to ask so I'm going to ask this first. I'm curious when you look at the future how when you look at the future of come back snacks is and let's say this I'm you know amazing that you're in 800 locations like kudos to you that's phenomenal.
[17:07] SPEAKER_01: When you look at the future of come back snacks and it may not even be from my I'm not necessarily saying like we want to be in this many stores but the impact that you want it to have because there is such a clear social aspect to it.
[17:21] SPEAKER_01: What do you see as the potential for the future.
[17:25] SPEAKER_00: I see us developing grant programs to give out grants to people trying to start businesses that maybe have coming out of recent or have a record even starting a business that's like a whole other discussion with a record was challenging because you know there was a financial institution that didn't want to open a bank account for me because of I was hiring people with records.
[17:46] SPEAKER_00: And then like the business insurance is like at premiums and then there's grants that we applied to that people that actually there's like a break from the communication because we have these grant organizations reaching out to us to apply and they didn't even read the fine print at the end that said, oh actually if you have a record you're an eligible right so it's like what does that have to do with that.
[18:06] SPEAKER_00: That's the thing so I just saw like all these all these gaps and I want to be able to fund other other businesses and travel around the world and see how we can bring the world closer together despite how vast it is.
[18:20] SPEAKER_01: Yeah so the other thank you for sharing that the other the other question that I had and it was you know a little bit I think a little bit inside of what you were talking about but the.
[18:32] SPEAKER_01: The changes that you that you've been able to impact or be a part of the discussion around the prison system at the use of the federal and the provincial level.
[18:44] SPEAKER_01: What are some of those changes or conversations that you've had that you think that you feel i'm going to say most proud of because I don't know a better word for it but we're like i'm really glad we're doing this or these things are changing or.
[19:00] SPEAKER_01: Something is not the way it was before.
[19:04] SPEAKER_00: Yeah so when I was charged there was a number of circumstances that led to me being arrested for understanding drugs muggling.
[19:13] SPEAKER_00: I was never a drugs muggler I never went to see university for that like I just ended up on a trip with someone that I trusted and back in Canada because I just wanted to go home with drugs on me.
[19:23] SPEAKER_00: Meanwhile at the time federal government had something called mandatory minimum sentences and so you're putting women who are used as drug mules who have no other recourse or very few recourses or just very very ignorant.
[19:36] SPEAKER_00: And try to get home and and our resident important and our putting jail for a very long period of time when they aren't the ones benefiting from this drug trade and the people hire up like we were like the lowest thing fruit so the.
[19:49] SPEAKER_00: The country is spending tax like millions of tax dollars on incarcerating women who have no idea what kind of world they're in and then putting them back out to the world with no support and then they want to go out there it's all this re offending and so I worked with them the federal government on the federal framework to reduce for sydivism and so we actually got that law change so now judges have control.
[20:12] SPEAKER_00: The management minimums don't exist for it for these drugs drugs muggling charges there are obviously there are other charges that they still do for you know very good reason yeah but often for the most part the majority of women involved in the drug trade are marginalized and have suffered tremendous abuse and are also mothers and so there's just so many factors that led to you know petitioning to change this law which was changed last year which is great and.
[20:42] SPEAKER_00: And with the ministry of labor this is not the provincial level this is more about after incarceration so I was saying so I was in reform but it's about equal equal opportunity employment and so the ministry of labor I work with our money of not him.
[20:58] SPEAKER_00: He just came out with a fund called the skills development fund and it's like 12 it's almost $12 million fund that is allocated towards businesses that are trying to don't want to hire and are going to invest in hiring people coming out of incarceration.
[21:15] SPEAKER_01: That's amazing like that's huge congratulations to you and also thank you for sharing that because I guarantee we have many listeners who did not know.
[21:28] SPEAKER_01: About the mandatory minimums that existed or continue to exist in other ways and did not you know would never have and I hate to say this but would never have considered the possibility of hiring someone who is coming out of the system or what that could look like or that there are programs designed to encourage it because you know equal opportunity matters in all the ways.
[21:56] SPEAKER_01: So sorry go ahead.
[21:58] SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah that's it yeah I was losing chair.
[22:01] SPEAKER_01: So I appreciate you sharing that because I think people I think awareness matters for things like this and I think that speaking to some of the changes that have occurred and may continue to occur opens up opportunity for everyone right whether it's a business owner or company looking to hire someone or someone looking for a job.
[22:25] SPEAKER_01: Or you know of wanting to change their future in some way.
[22:30] SPEAKER_00: And so when you have nothing left to lose like you are you become the strongest fighter when you all you can do let it like all you can do is fight right and so instead of you know I think often like right now in the workplace there's like kind of a sense of entitlement and certain areas so when you come out of prison you are just like I'm going to work so hard because I want to see my kids again I want to have a place to live again.
[22:53] SPEAKER_00: I want to feel proud of myself again I want to put my kids are university or I want to put myself through through school or something like that right it's like I want to feel human again and when you have that feeling when you want to feel that again you will you'll fight till the death pretty much.
[23:10] SPEAKER_01: I think it's really interesting one of the things that you just said inside of there is that idea of wanting to feel human again I think that's really important because we and I it almost goes back to what you were you know something you mentioned earlier around the family environment and that's that like to me what I hear is just because the work that I do around psychological safety right when we feel safe we feel human.
[23:39] SPEAKER_01: And that's a really basic thing that we should all everyone should be able to feel safe and human and this is.
[23:52] SPEAKER_01: And I don't mean to downplay this but this seems like a very obvious way to.
[23:57] SPEAKER_01: To have some of that help happen for people who otherwise might not first of all were probably not feeling human inside the system and.
[24:10] SPEAKER_01: We can change that.
[24:13] SPEAKER_00: Absolutely because it's going to be hard to change from the prison system from inside so like luckily the government is helping to change it the people inside are helping to change it I know.
[24:23] SPEAKER_00: And it's really important to have some of the people that are doing amazing things now and are you know working working alongside other people that are working like moving towards that same goal you see it down in the states everywhere and now it's finally started to make make an impact yeah.
[24:44] SPEAKER_01: I think that's incredible I really want to thank you for sitting and chatting with me and sharing your story and sharing some of the like unbelievably amazing work that you're doing and impact you're having and you have a really cool company that you know makes popcorn that everyone should go try because popcorn is awesome and a really great story behind it so like.
[25:11] SPEAKER_01: And I mean this thank you for coming and sharing all of this and being so open.
[25:17] SPEAKER_01: And educating folks including myself about some of the realities of these things because again not enough people in my opinion are talking about it.
[25:25] SPEAKER_01: Well thank you so so much really appreciate it absolutely it's been my pleasure so for those who are listening you can check out Emily and her work at comebacksnacks.com and she's also on Instagram at comebacks nacks and thank you for listening to can's podcast like comment and subscribe.
[25:41] SPEAKER_01: To all our channels to get the latest podcast from entrepreneurs across Canada.
