Become an entrepreneur for the right reasons because it’s not an easy ride

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[00:00] SPEAKER_00: Starting a new business is an exciting journey, but it also comes with its fair share of risks.
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[00:15] SPEAKER_00: Lability insurance also gives you a competitive edge in the market.
[00:19] SPEAKER_00: Visit Zensurance Forward Slash, save 35, to get a free quote for the low-cost insurance
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[00:31] SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Canada's Podcast.
[00:37] SPEAKER_01: So Tyler, Brandon, welcome to Canada's Podcasts. And, you know, before we get too deep into
[00:46] SPEAKER_01: the conversation, why don't each of you tell us a little bit about yourselves,
[00:53] SPEAKER_01: what you do, you know, how you got here, you know, that kind of thing.
[00:59] SPEAKER_01: So, Brandon, why don't we kick off with you? Just sort of give us, give us you two a three minute
[01:06] SPEAKER_01: who you are and what you're doing and the passion that got you here, basically.
[01:12] SPEAKER_04: Yeah, sounds great. I'll try not to go too deep, just a little deep, but,
[01:17] SPEAKER_04: yes, I'm Brandon. I'm from Toronto originally actually grew up in Ajax.
[01:23] SPEAKER_04: My path has always been an interest in healthcare. I went to university and started
[01:31] SPEAKER_04: in pre-med before taking my first philosophy class and then getting a little too interested in that.
[01:37] SPEAKER_04: So, did a degree in biology and philosophy and then the Masters in Public Policy and Global Health
[01:42] SPEAKER_04: to understand more of the macro factors. I was away from Canada four or nine years
[01:49] SPEAKER_04: just trying to really motivate factors, trying to understand the world really and also just
[01:56] SPEAKER_05: with my background, who I grew up with, always been interested in
[02:04] SPEAKER_04: injustice, you could say, and then trying to make the world more fair, sounds a little groaning.
[02:11] SPEAKER_04: Yes, it's always been. And yeah, healthcare was the area I wanted to make that difference.
[02:15] SPEAKER_04: So, I've popped around, like I mentioned, did the Masters in Global Health. I
[02:21] SPEAKER_04: worked at a nano medicine laboratory in New York. I was a market analyst. I went to work for a
[02:27] SPEAKER_04: pharma company that they had quarters in Denmark and Copenhagen to understand that side of the picture.
[02:33] SPEAKER_04: And I realized in three years working at that pharma company, which is pretty famous now because
[02:38] SPEAKER_04: they make the drug a Zampik, which is kind of taken over the airwaves. I
[02:44] SPEAKER_04: realized the future of, I hope, future of healthcare didn't rely in treating symptoms indefinitely,
[02:51] SPEAKER_04: which is what we see happening quite across the board. And I got interested in the field of
[02:58] SPEAKER_04: psychedelic medicine for that reason. And after nine years abroad, I moved back to Canada
[03:02] SPEAKER_04: to work for a company called Field Trip Health, which was one of the early psychedelic medicine
[03:06] SPEAKER_04: companies that joined theirs. Point number one, looking at really root cause, holistic solutions
[03:11] SPEAKER_04: for a variety of illnesses. And after some time there, I kind of always knew that I wanted to build
[03:20] SPEAKER_04: my own vision. And I moved out to create the product in the microdosing space called Houston.
[03:27] SPEAKER_04: And kind of, this is where it's like a classic entrepreneurial story of just meeting with curiosity.
[03:33] SPEAKER_04: I, while building Houston in the microdosing space, which is microdosing small amounts of psychedelics,
[03:40] SPEAKER_04: which is quite popular, just doing user research, talking to people, you know, why the microdose
[03:45] SPEAKER_04: in the past, they were looking for, I kept hearing questions around people asking if they could
[03:50] SPEAKER_04: microdose to come off their antidepressants. And I heard it enough times in the starting to make me
[03:57] SPEAKER_04: scratch my head, you know, one, why are you seeking out a currently solicit substance to come off your
[04:04] SPEAKER_04: medication? To why wouldn't you go to your prescribing doctor about this in three? Can you just stop
[04:14] SPEAKER_04: into depressants when you're feeling better? And I'd never been on an antidepressant myself. I had
[04:20] SPEAKER_04: other other methods of managing my mental health, luckily with soccer and philosophy and just
[04:24] SPEAKER_04: left some downs of life. But I started diving deeper into the research and, you know, came across
[04:31] SPEAKER_04: our other scientific, profound remarks work and realized like, oh, antidepressants are actually
[04:36] SPEAKER_04: hard to get off of. They're not these benign multivitamines that we've been often led to believe. These
[04:42] SPEAKER_04: are either proper drugs that form physical dependency in the brain. And when I looked at, you know,
[04:51] SPEAKER_04: the numbers of patients using antidepressants and the duration of use in America, so 50 million
[04:56] SPEAKER_04: people on antidepressants now that numbers risen with COVID. I think it's really as 10 years ago,
[05:03] SPEAKER_04: two out of three people on an antidepressant were on. If over two years, after on it for over five,
[05:08] SPEAKER_04: a quarter wanted for over 10. And the clinical studies that the FDA uses to approve the drugs are
[05:13] SPEAKER_04: six weeks long. Right. So it's a very large mismatch and probably get into it in a bit. Like what?
[05:22] SPEAKER_04: Looks like, but that's when I reached out to Tyler, who I got to know while working at Field Trip.
[05:28] SPEAKER_04: And we had some complimentary expertise and I kind of ran this idea by him one day overhead,
[05:34] SPEAKER_04: sitting at the park in Rons' Vale. And, you know, that's building it for the last
[05:41] SPEAKER_04: about a year and a half now and kind of ties into Tyler's story.
[05:45] SPEAKER_03: Tyler, what about you?
[05:48] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, quite a different, I guess, origin than Brandon, but not too far off. I grew up on the other
[05:55] SPEAKER_03: side of Toronto in Burlington, Ontario. And I now live in Toronto with my wife and daughter, but
[06:03] SPEAKER_03: yeah, for me, growing up and going to school, you know, healthcare was never really on my radar.
[06:10] SPEAKER_03: I actually wanted to become a chartered accountant since as early as I can remember maybe the first grade.
[06:19] SPEAKER_03: My dad was a chartered accountant and I admired him quite a bit. So I always wanted to follow in his
[06:25] SPEAKER_03: footsteps, you know, ended up going to Wolfard Laurier and getting my, you know, my business degree
[06:32] SPEAKER_03: and doing my accounting option and then ended up getting my CA designation with KPMG,
[06:38] SPEAKER_03: the same firm my dad worked at. So I really nailed it when it came to achieving that dream.
[06:45] SPEAKER_03: But yeah, from there is where my journey into the mental health industry really started,
[06:52] SPEAKER_03: is a couple of years into my career at KPMG is when I first really started experiencing depression.
[07:02] SPEAKER_03: No surprise looking back, you know, is working in this unhilling role that I had always dreamt of,
[07:08] SPEAKER_03: but really never even considered whether it was for me as a person, learned since then that
[07:14] SPEAKER_03: definitely is not. I think it's actually the number one least recommended profession for my personality type.
[07:22] SPEAKER_03: I need much more meaning in my life than just numbers. But
[07:26] SPEAKER_03: so yeah, I mean two years into my career at KPMG, I was part of this, you know, that's where my
[07:31] SPEAKER_03: my anti-depressant story actually started. We call it the there's quite a bit of talk around this
[07:39] SPEAKER_03: this idea of medicating normal in the anti-depressant space. And that's exactly what happened with me,
[07:45] SPEAKER_03: right? I went into my doctor's office. I was working in an unfulfilling job 75 hours a week,
[07:51] SPEAKER_03: had no time to eat well, diet, diet was terrible, wasn't sleeping well. I don't even know if I knew
[07:58] SPEAKER_03: what meditation was back then, you know, when you look at like these holistic, you know, wellness
[08:04] SPEAKER_03: pillars that we tried to teach with that outro, I was, you know, a one across the board if you're
[08:11] SPEAKER_03: rating that on like a seven point scale. So yeah, I went to my doctor's office and you know,
[08:16] SPEAKER_03: an anti-depressant prescription was recommended for me based on the fact that I had depression,
[08:22] SPEAKER_03: you know, it seemed to run in my family. You know, I must be a chemical imbalance and I was dealing
[08:26] SPEAKER_03: with it at the time, clearly not. So, you know, medication, not really first line of treatment and
[08:32] SPEAKER_03: these very normal circumstances, but that's how it goes for so many of us. So yeah, I mean, it provided
[08:39] SPEAKER_03: some short-term relief. It allowed me to kind of step back and, you know, quit that job at KPMG
[08:45] SPEAKER_03: that I had been kind of gunning for for like 20 years and that's when I found my passion for
[08:51] SPEAKER_03: the startup space. I took a job at Hello Fresh Canada, the meal kit company, when we were just
[08:57] SPEAKER_03: starting up here in Canada. So I think I was like a 15th employee there pretty early on and
[09:03] SPEAKER_03: loved it. You kind of fell in love with the startup space immediately, you know, the complete lack
[09:09] SPEAKER_03: of structure, the chaos, the problem solving, the, you know, just just the act of building something,
[09:16] SPEAKER_03: I just really, really fell in love with. So I stayed there for about two and a half years
[09:23] SPEAKER_03: and, you know, so at that point, so when my anti-depressant story comes back in and I was about,
[09:28] SPEAKER_03: I was on my medication for about three years at that time, about two years into my time at Hello
[09:39] SPEAKER_03: and at the time, I'm like, I don't really feel like I'm getting married to the, you know, the
[09:43] SPEAKER_03: woman in my dreams and I really just don't feel anything. Like I didn't feel pleasure, didn't feel
[09:48] SPEAKER_03: pride, I felt depressed, I felt anxious and I've come to learn that actually a very very common
[09:56] SPEAKER_03: thing for anti-depressant users is, you know, as the duration of use increases, you know, especially
[10:01] SPEAKER_03: past this, you know, six to nine month recommended treatment duration, you know, the Canadian guidelines,
[10:09] SPEAKER_03: the US guidelines, they also just treatment of six to nine months, but as Brandon mentioned earlier,
[10:12] SPEAKER_03: you know, most users are on these medications, well, past that. So yeah, I, I realized in two and a
[10:19] SPEAKER_03: half years, I was, you know, getting worse and around that time is when I found the job opportunity
[10:25] SPEAKER_03: for a director of finance role at Field Trip Health, where I met Brandon, so I joined them as the
[10:30] SPEAKER_03: fifth employee really thought, you know, as I can submerge myself in this world of psychedelic
[10:35] SPEAKER_03: medicine or alternatives, you know, mental health treatment, you know, maybe I could figure out
[10:40] SPEAKER_03: my own mental health and why it continued to get worse when I was apparently taken medication,
[10:47] SPEAKER_03: that would make me feel better. And so that's that's kind of the real origin of outro is being
[10:54] SPEAKER_03: at Field Trip. Shortly after I joined, I made a New Year's resolution to quit my auntie's presence.
[11:00] SPEAKER_03: I came off them over a series of weeks after being on them for over three years. And, you know,
[11:07] SPEAKER_03: over the course of the next few months, just had a terrible withdrawal. You know, ended up being
[11:13] SPEAKER_03: put back on medication. That's another thing that that happens quite often. It's just a, you know,
[11:19] SPEAKER_03: a mistake of withdrawal for relapse. Too many people, you know, go to their doctor with symptoms of
[11:25] SPEAKER_03: severe anxiety of depression that are caused by coming off these medications and when really,
[11:31] SPEAKER_03: you know, you've just come off them too quickly. And so I was put back on another medication,
[11:36] SPEAKER_03: long story short, ended up coming off that medication, going through withdrawal again.
[11:41] SPEAKER_03: And it was at that time that I was actually finally made the connection that, you know, maybe this
[11:46] SPEAKER_03: is deeper than this. Maybe this is just the fact that I'm still doing a, you know, finance job that
[11:52] SPEAKER_03: is completely unfulfilling and kind of meaningless to me. So I was coming off from a medication and
[11:58] SPEAKER_03: working with a career coach at the same time when I made the decision to kind of leave my finance
[12:02] SPEAKER_03: career behind, put my job at Field Trip without any plans. My daughter was due to be born in a
[12:09] SPEAKER_03: couple months. And yeah, six weeks after I quit my job at Field Trip, this guy reached out to me
[12:14] SPEAKER_03: with an idea to build a business to help people get off of anti-depressant medications. Without
[12:19] SPEAKER_03: even knowing, I had just struggled with this process for, you know, the two years that we had
[12:24] SPEAKER_03: known each other up until that point. And that's when I was born and I was, you know, the entrepreneurship
[12:32] SPEAKER_01: journey begins. That was a little bit of passion there in terms of... A lot of passion and...
[12:38] SPEAKER_01: So we should be providing... Lots of serendipity as well. So, you know...
[12:43] SPEAKER_01: You know, I mean, I don't like to, you know, we'd like to focus on you a little bit, but, you know,
[12:47] SPEAKER_01: mental health is such a focus these days, you know, I think with the COVID stuff, it really kind of
[12:57] SPEAKER_01: ballooned basically. Maybe should sort of, you know, I was looking at outro and some of the things
[13:07] SPEAKER_01: you do. And one of the things that I sort of came away from the site was the regulatory and
[13:16] SPEAKER_01: the affordability and the things like that. The approach is really, obviously cover that too, but, I mean,
[13:25] SPEAKER_01: where are you guys in terms of being a solution for the world or, you know, for everyone kind of thing?
[13:37] SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I touch on that a little bit, but, you know, with the healthcare business, it's kind of like
[13:43] SPEAKER_04: research in a way, right? Like you have to... It's a new methodology. I grew up in Taper and it's based
[13:52] SPEAKER_04: on very fundamental science that a co-founder Mark Horwitz developed, both through, you know, being a
[13:56] SPEAKER_04: psychiatrist and a neuroscientist, but also his personal journey coming off the medications,
[14:02] SPEAKER_04: which he learned a lot of what he knows now in this evidence base, not from
[14:08] SPEAKER_04: colleagues at the World Leading Institution that he was at, but actually going on to these pure
[14:14] SPEAKER_04: support forums that, you know, over 100,000 people have flocked to and growing to try and find a
[14:19] SPEAKER_04: solution for this, right? You know, one of those people is very much pioneer in that space as
[14:26] SPEAKER_04: the Del Framer. And so we're at with Outro right now is we're taking Mark's work that he's been
[14:33] SPEAKER_04: doing with the NHS in England and nationally and trying to bring that over to Canada first and
[14:41] SPEAKER_04: then who spent less where the problems obviously very large. And really with the point of technology,
[14:48] SPEAKER_04: I suppose, is scaling solutions and making them more accessible. And so with Mark's work,
[14:56] SPEAKER_04: what he's doing now, we're collecting those data sets and we're implementing that care model,
[15:01] SPEAKER_04: the telemedicine passion, so that we can start out by better understanding what does the
[15:06] SPEAKER_04: taper and process look like for different types of patients, whether that's medication history,
[15:12] SPEAKER_04: current medical situation, current life situation, demographics, etc. So we can build the protocols
[15:21] SPEAKER_04: that are personalized to different individuals and then be able to do that at a scale that reaches
[15:27] SPEAKER_04: as many people as possible, give them that option of an evidence-based safe way to get off their
[15:33] SPEAKER_04: medications instead of being trapped as people have been now, and then also enable care providers.
[15:39] SPEAKER_04: Most of the most antidepressants now are prescribed by primary care doctors and family doctors,
[15:45] SPEAKER_04: who are obviously limited by time and resources, so how can we also build out those tools to help them
[15:53] SPEAKER_04: make better collaborative decisions with their patients, and at the end of the day,
[15:57] SPEAKER_04: are better for the individual patient and better for the healthcare system.
[16:01] SPEAKER_04: It's right now we're in that process of tapering our first patients off in Ontario and British
[16:05] SPEAKER_04: Columbia using a nurse practitioner and developing those insights and those datasets so we can
[16:12] SPEAKER_00: scale responsibly with technology. Running a new business can be stressful. The last thing you
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[16:52] SPEAKER_01: insurance experts. You know it's good interesting stuff but why don't we get back to the entrepreneurship
[17:00] SPEAKER_01: thing just some sort of things. You know you're both in that mid-life range and you've experienced
[17:11] SPEAKER_01: things. You know what about you Jeremy? Why do you you know I mean Tally you explained a little
[17:20] SPEAKER_01: bit about your side of things so maybe we'll throw this on my brand and why take the risk of
[17:29] SPEAKER_01: entrepreneurship. I mean why couldn't you go into something you know in policy you know
[17:38] SPEAKER_01: you were a you know a big farmer government etc etc what why step into this area.
[17:46] SPEAKER_05: Pretty pretty funny question because I think my biggest fear is being bored
[18:01] SPEAKER_04: yeah I I struggled a lot in university and I used to be a soccer player that was a lot of my life
[18:10] SPEAKER_04: and I got scholarship in US and I went to play in England for a year and that took over a lot of
[18:15] SPEAKER_04: my life but similar to Tyler being an accountant it wasn't really me and so a lot of my life was
[18:23] SPEAKER_04: dictated by that and you know I took up all my time then I wanted to go into the business world get
[18:30] SPEAKER_04: more of my true one my colleague geeky side out and so I started in the business world and I guess
[18:37] SPEAKER_04: I was working for companies for about five years and I I learned a lot and so the positive side of
[18:43] SPEAKER_05: things you know I learned a lot but I I really hated it. I am a learner by trade I guess you
[18:55] SPEAKER_04: could say and something I learned not too long ago was this idea of a explore and exploit
[19:02] SPEAKER_04: phases of life not exploit in a negative way but the explore phase being and taking information
[19:08] SPEAKER_04: and learning about the world learning about yourself and different people have a different
[19:12] SPEAKER_04: period of this explore phase and I had a good explore phase many different industries people countries
[19:19] SPEAKER_04: etc and when I came across psychedelics for the first time that was a light bulb that went my head
[19:28] SPEAKER_04: oh something really really really interesting I'm very happy like lit a little fire in my soul so
[19:34] SPEAKER_04: to speak and then you know I went to work with this psychedelic company I still wasn't feeling
[19:41] SPEAKER_04: wasn't feeling quite right because I couldn't bring to life a vision that I thought was important
[19:47] SPEAKER_04: for the world so when I left and I took that risk that was more important to me than the security
[19:52] SPEAKER_04: was being able to take a chance to bring a vision I have to life that I thought was really important
[19:58] SPEAKER_04: to the world and could help people and so when I came across this problem antidepressants
[20:04] SPEAKER_04: discontinuation and all the factors that go into it in terms of the actual medical component the
[20:10] SPEAKER_04: idea of why is false evidence being implemented in the healthcare system but real evidence isn't
[20:18] SPEAKER_04: right that's the political aspect the economic aspect and then how do you leverage technology
[20:23] SPEAKER_04: in the way it's meant to be used to provide the greatest moment of good to the greatest amount of
[20:27] SPEAKER_04: people and everything I've learned in that explore phase of my life really came together
[20:34] SPEAKER_04: with outro and that in the phase of life where it's the exploit phase so to speak that's just
[20:40] SPEAKER_04: using what you've learned to now create something and start to externally you know bring that into
[20:48] SPEAKER_04: the world and so that's essentially I guess was the personal path and yeah just from a personality
[20:58] SPEAKER_05: perspective my what I'm driven to do is worth that risk I suppose at least right now in my current
[21:09] SPEAKER_01: stage of life let's move into lessons a little bit I thought a Utah you know what advice would
[21:22] SPEAKER_01: you give to somebody you know that really sort of wants to start a business that sort of you know
[21:31] SPEAKER_01: obviously maybe they're in the wrong spot like you were maybe they're just whatever
[21:38] SPEAKER_01: what if you learned that you that surprised you that maybe you can pass on yeah I mean I think
[21:47] SPEAKER_03: the obvious starting point for me given my personal experience it just make like before you do
[21:52] SPEAKER_03: and make sure it's for the right reasons and that it's a fit with who you are I think I mean
[21:58] SPEAKER_03: not you know in talking with you know therapists and people in the mental health industry I do
[22:04] SPEAKER_03: think a big reason for a lot of you know mental health and stress concerns for some you know
[22:12] SPEAKER_03: business people are high performers is that lack of you know career and personality fit so first
[22:20] SPEAKER_03: you know make sure it's for the right reasons because it's obviously not an easy ride and things
[22:25] SPEAKER_03: are going to get tough um after that I mean the biggest thing I've been saying ever since I got
[22:32] SPEAKER_03: into the the startup world is just like you better be sure that you're you're okay with you know
[22:37] SPEAKER_03: being very uncomfortable or being very comfortable sorry with being uncomfortable I think that's
[22:44] SPEAKER_03: like the number one thing you're starting a business entrepreneurship working in startups is you
[22:50] SPEAKER_03: you really need to be comfortable with the chaos um that is the first and foremost it's not easy
[22:57] SPEAKER_03: things change daily um you know there's there's a lot of hours that go into it nobody's really
[23:03] SPEAKER_03: telling you how to do it um so you need to be comfortable with that and then yeah another thing
[23:10] SPEAKER_03: that I've been you know kind of working on or just aware of is yet nobody really knows what they're
[23:16] SPEAKER_03: doing in most places right so there's that um you know there's always that self doubt
[23:24] SPEAKER_03: when you're doing something like this and I think one thing that I've really been
[23:28] SPEAKER_03: focused on or just trying to to draw from is like most people in every profession don't really know
[23:34] SPEAKER_03: what they're doing on a day-to-day basis so um you know we're all just doing what we think is right
[23:39] SPEAKER_03: or doing what we were told to do or following this following that you know don't get too caught up
[23:45] SPEAKER_03: or too hard on yourself if if you don't know the answer just you know you really need to just trust
[23:50] SPEAKER_03: in yourself um to do the right thing and if you do make a mistake it's not the end of the world I think
[23:57] SPEAKER_03: that's been another huge learning for me especially coming from I don't know my upbringing and coming
[24:04] SPEAKER_03: from you know a CPA background is like you have this idea that everything needs to be so accurate
[24:10] SPEAKER_03: and so perfect but it never can be so you really need to be able to let that go as well
[24:18] SPEAKER_01: this is just pretty good I mean that's a good advice for anyone I mean what's the best piece of
[24:23] SPEAKER_01: advice is to sort of aim at both of you you know that sort of gem that the mentor has thrown at you
[24:32] SPEAKER_01: that you kind of carry around and you hit pocket and and use it or sometimes on a daily
[24:39] SPEAKER_01: sometimes less but what this is there's something there may not be something there but there's
[24:44] SPEAKER_01: something there that you carry around with you Brandon what do you go for? Yeah for me there's a
[24:53] SPEAKER_04: a lot of it comes from my soccer days actually yeah um I had a very pivotal coach me growing up as
[25:02] SPEAKER_04: Russian coach uh Russian interon or named Alex and I always got along with
[25:11] SPEAKER_04: Russians quite well Russians and French uh and by speaking with them they have some different
[25:15] SPEAKER_04: ways of perceiving the world philosophically and I remember there was one game not played center
[25:22] SPEAKER_04: back center defense and another player cut my shoelace with their cleat by accident and so my shoes
[25:30] SPEAKER_04: slipped off and I didn't clear the ball far enough or the box and then they got the ball and they
[25:35] SPEAKER_04: put it back in and they scored and he was berating me for not clearing the ball far enough and I'm like
[25:41] SPEAKER_04: Alex my shoe fell off I can plant my foot anyways you know he says to Brandon you just need to do it
[25:51] SPEAKER_04: and that has always stuck with me it's like it can be easy to compare yourself to others or
[25:57] SPEAKER_04: you've had advantages or things happen you know and there's all these these reasons for things
[26:05] SPEAKER_04: happening but at the end of the day you just got to find a way to do it you know and you can
[26:11] SPEAKER_04: as Tyler said around mistake component there's got to create space for yourself to be like
[26:18] SPEAKER_04: sad or upset about a mistake and you know let that flow through you and then aren't
[26:23] SPEAKER_04: let's let's go make the most out of this now and let's just just do it I guess you kind of borrowed
[26:28] SPEAKER_03: that from Nike didn't you? Yeah Tyler what about you? I mean one thing that I've realized or that I've
[26:42] SPEAKER_03: kind of started trying to live by as funny as it sounds as it's kind of like taking our
[26:47] SPEAKER_03: our approach to coming off of medication at a show but applying the same kind of theory to my life
[26:54] SPEAKER_03: I don't know I realize it's very accurate when you're talking about many things I mean just at a very
[26:59] SPEAKER_03: high level what we do is we take small steps at a rate that you can tolerate with you know no real
[27:07] SPEAKER_03: and no real timeline right like a lot of people come in there like how long is it going to take to
[27:13] SPEAKER_03: get off my medication it's like we don't know you know we can give you a general estimate or
[27:18] SPEAKER_03: guideline but we don't know and so I don't know a few months ago and like this is actually really
[27:23] SPEAKER_03: applicable to many journeys right is I mean you take it one step at a time at a rate that you can
[27:30] SPEAKER_03: tolerate if you can't tolerate it you know if you start to have symptoms you know I mean coming
[27:37] SPEAKER_03: off medication it's withdrawal symptoms in life it could be depression anxiety stress you know
[27:42] SPEAKER_03: slow things down create some space for yourself stabilize and then keep going
[27:49] SPEAKER_03: and you know not worrying too much about the end result or how long it takes to get there and just
[27:56] SPEAKER_03: taking it one step at a time based on you know your toleration and just trusting the process so
[28:04] SPEAKER_01: okay yeah so that makes sense some good insights guys let's have a bit of fun before we
[28:10] SPEAKER_01: look calling the day you know each time Tyler you you go first this time you are mourning or a night
[28:18] SPEAKER_03: person oh I always weather morning person until I became a dad it's a little harder to do now
[28:30] SPEAKER_03: with my daughter waking up at seven you know trying to spend time with her before the day
[28:35] SPEAKER_03: it started yeah I was saying mostly a morning person red yeah lately I had become
[28:42] SPEAKER_03: become overnight person after after I get her down off to bed get back online
[28:50] SPEAKER_04: that's my friend what do you say definitely a night owl by trade yeah
[28:56] SPEAKER_04: you know Wikipedia was my happy place for a lot of my life saying it before I have pretty
[29:02] SPEAKER_04: stuff but another lesson in startups is finding balance so I've been setting a stricter bed times
[29:10] SPEAKER_04: for myself just to you know find that balance you get both time at the night like Tyler said
[29:14] SPEAKER_04: you know have meetings and all that but you also get some really good time in the morning as well
[29:19] SPEAKER_05: wake up early enough okay Tyler what book are you reading listening right now
[29:27] SPEAKER_03: oh I have like three on the go that I just haven't been able to pick up in a while it's been
[29:32] SPEAKER_03: been really busy um well I haven't been reading I mean the most recent book I was reading was
[29:39] SPEAKER_03: Gabbard Mott's new book and I'm blanking on the title right now um but uh yeah but other than that
[29:48] SPEAKER_03: it's what's that sorry you ADHD no oh this is how often I'm reading you can tell um
[29:56] SPEAKER_03: I think it's called the miss of it's the miss of normal oh so um yeah really centered around
[30:04] SPEAKER_03: early childhood trauma and the myth of normal and just you know it's a very it's just very I'm
[30:09] SPEAKER_03: I'm trying to read a lot of books that are quite you know in line with what we're doing at outshow
[30:13] SPEAKER_03: you know trying to understand people's experiences uh you know and why medication is such just a common
[30:21] SPEAKER_03: response to those they can really complex you know parts of us that obviously can't be cured
[30:29] SPEAKER_01: or treated with a pill Brandon what about you more about what would you recommend that you read
[30:36] SPEAKER_01: that sort of had an impact made you change the way you kind of operate um
[30:43] SPEAKER_04: um my favorite book of all time is all this Huxley's brennial philosophy that's a little bit
[30:51] SPEAKER_04: more of a philosophical read just look at various lessons and perspectives on life through
[30:58] SPEAKER_04: variety of religions that exist and have existed and how they're all saying kind of the same thing
[31:07] SPEAKER_04: um yeah that's pivotal and Victor Frankl that's a very common podcast book I'm going to be
[31:12] SPEAKER_04: such a typical podcast guest but Victor Frankl's meaning is absolutely fantastic and that's something
[31:18] SPEAKER_04: you'd think a lot about as a team um you know learning to be better leaders is how do we create this
[31:25] SPEAKER_04: sense of why we're doing the things that we're doing and you know that a whole idea of the book being
[31:33] SPEAKER_04: you can kind of go through anything or accomplish anything um if you know why you're doing it
[31:39] SPEAKER_04: by the he coined local therapy so that's an even highly recommend like 50% of other podcasts
[31:47] SPEAKER_01: what is there Brandon if you had to a big one word to describe who the heck you are what would it be
[31:56] SPEAKER_05: oh wow in an active um corny uh
[32:04] SPEAKER_05: uh philosopher Tyler what about you
[32:11] SPEAKER_05: one word just going to be honest I'm curious
[32:18] SPEAKER_01: good I like I like to like to do this so that's not I don't get that one
[32:22] SPEAKER_01: but no no so what's keeping you guys up at night
[32:28] SPEAKER_05: you
[32:29] SPEAKER_05: gardener express what no
[32:33] SPEAKER_04: it's like a nice um it's almost like white noise at this point yeah um what's keeping me up
[32:39] SPEAKER_04: I'm I'm really really passionate about and interested in um the impact of technology
[32:47] SPEAKER_04: on our society um yeah the intentionality behind building it um how we can keep up with it
[32:56] SPEAKER_04: how we can make sure that it's a tool that we use rather than a tool that helps other companies
[33:05] SPEAKER_04: will not name any use us um how that actually is a a huge component of the
[33:14] SPEAKER_04: quote unquote mental health crisis that we're experiencing it relates a lot to our work in general
[33:19] SPEAKER_04: how can you think of mental health um kind of systemically rather than chemically as we've
[33:27] SPEAKER_05: been thinking about it for the last several decades I'm what about you keeping me up at night
[33:33] SPEAKER_03: hmm um not for me kid all right my dad uh it's super pretty good I mean I would honestly I
[33:43] SPEAKER_03: it's her you know her future and my family's future that keeps me up the most these days with
[33:49] SPEAKER_03: you know all of the things going on in the world that we tried to uh but I've always been pretty good
[33:55] SPEAKER_03: at uh you know looking away from or just not letting bother me but ever since I had a daughter
[34:01] SPEAKER_03: it really uh it's a lot differently so um yeah I would say it's it's what you know the world
[34:08] SPEAKER_03: world will she live in is probably the thing that keeps me up the most at night and so you know
[34:15] SPEAKER_01: trying to do our part here to uh and make that a better place that's that's great guys it's been
[34:23] SPEAKER_01: really good meeting it uh I've enjoyed the session we we've hit the time and uh how can people
[34:30] SPEAKER_01: get a hold of you which happens so for a fairly regular basis so it's important that you know
[34:35] SPEAKER_01: people listen to these things and then yeah we want to grab a hold of people so
[34:41] SPEAKER_04: now it's quite simple uh www.outro.com is our our website URL and uh you can reach me at
[34:52] SPEAKER_04: branded at outro.com and Tyler at outro.com want to keep it as simple as possible
[34:58] SPEAKER_04: yeah I'll just find us a link then as well okay guys thank you very much coming on
[35:03] SPEAKER_01: be great meeting you and uh you know it's it's a pretty exciting exciting time okay uh uh
[35:11] SPEAKER_01: your space is uh is there is a good space so that's great thank you yeah thank thanks so much for
[35:18] SPEAKER_03: having us