Michael DeVenney, President of WorkInsights Talks About His Experience with PTSD and Mental Health

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[00:00] SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Candidus Podcast, the number one podcast for entrepreneurs by entrepreneurs.
[00:09] SPEAKER_01: So Michael, welcome to Candidus Podcast, you know, nice to have you on.
[00:15] SPEAKER_01: And as I usually say, let's kick off by a you tell me a little bit about who Michael Devene is and your background
[00:24] SPEAKER_01: and why you're here on Candidus Podcast, you know, the number one entrepreneurial podcast in Canada.
[00:32] SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm really happy to be on the show. That's the first thing. I appreciate it.
[00:37] SPEAKER_00: And I always say I'm a unique combination of things. So I'm an entrepreneur.
[00:45] SPEAKER_00: And I'm an entrepreneur. Inside of me is probably an economic developer and an analyst.
[00:51] SPEAKER_00: And I also have a mental health issue. So I have PTSD, chronic form.
[00:58] SPEAKER_00: And that has developed over the years.
[01:03] SPEAKER_00: And it makes being an entrepreneur.
[01:05] Speaker UNKNOWN: And I'm a entrepreneur.
[01:07] SPEAKER_00: Quite a bit more interesting.
[01:09] SPEAKER_00: But one of the biggest reasons I'm very open about it is I wanted to show.
[01:15] SPEAKER_00: People that you could be.
[01:18] SPEAKER_00: Just as creative, just as effective, just as productive.
[01:23] SPEAKER_00: Having a mental health challenge as anybody else would.
[01:27] SPEAKER_00: And I it's not really a great way to look at it.
[01:30] SPEAKER_00: But I think when I went through a pretty severe depression about six years ago, it was a positive inflection point for me.
[01:39] SPEAKER_00: It really opened me up to what life I think is about what business is about.
[01:46] SPEAKER_00: And how I can have a much more meaningful impact going forward.
[01:51] SPEAKER_00: That's kind of where I met.
[01:53] SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I looked at your background and you certainly kind of were pretty established in the corporate world.
[01:59] SPEAKER_01: And you know, in the early part of your life.
[02:03] SPEAKER_01: You know, what made you become an entrepreneur?
[02:06] SPEAKER_01: Because you were, you had a very good position in, in, in sort of the finance set.
[02:14] SPEAKER_00: I'm a very difficult employee.
[02:16] SPEAKER_00: So, I like my independence, not just flexibility, but I like independence.
[02:22] SPEAKER_00: So I was constantly coming up against the walls that were around me.
[02:27] SPEAKER_00: And I am someone who always has ideas.
[02:30] SPEAKER_00: And I like to pursue those ideas, even though sometimes, my name is until I really go the way it holds.
[02:36] SPEAKER_00: And within the corporate world, that's not really the room that I was able to have.
[02:43] SPEAKER_00: And I felt that, that going on to the room was the best, the best path for me.
[02:50] SPEAKER_00: I definitely missed the, definitely missed the income that I used to have.
[02:55] SPEAKER_00: But I'm definitely, I enjoy the ability to, to test new ideas to see what's going to work to try things out and see what happens.
[03:07] SPEAKER_00: And that's kept my life a lot more interesting.
[03:10] SPEAKER_00: And the businesses I've had have done well.
[03:13] SPEAKER_00: So, all in all, it's been, it's been a good journey.
[03:17] SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, yeah.
[03:19] SPEAKER_01: That journey tells a little bit more about that entrepreneurial journey.
[03:24] SPEAKER_01: You know, I mean, I personally think entrepreneurs are wired a little differently.
[03:30] SPEAKER_01: You jumped out of, of corporate world.
[03:34] SPEAKER_01: You know, there was something there that made you do the jump.
[03:43] SPEAKER_01: You know, what was that? I mean, what was, what was the desire to take on risk on your own back and build something?
[03:55] SPEAKER_00: Take to a great extent.
[03:56] SPEAKER_00: I like being responsible for myself.
[04:00] SPEAKER_00: I saw different ways to do things.
[04:04] SPEAKER_00: It didn't fit within the corporate world.
[04:07] SPEAKER_00: And I felt there was value in what I thought was the right direction to take.
[04:14] SPEAKER_00: And I'm quite comfortable with risk. I've always been, been, been that way.
[04:18] SPEAKER_00: I felt that I'd rather have the freedom to pursue things and fail if I had to, but to at least try them.
[04:28] SPEAKER_00: And I didn't want to spend a life in a box.
[04:32] SPEAKER_00: And I like, I really like being able to color it.
[04:36] SPEAKER_00: That the lines I like being able to work the way I want to.
[04:42] SPEAKER_00: I got, I hate asking for permission.
[04:45] SPEAKER_00: I so that never fit very well.
[04:49] SPEAKER_00: And I thought it was worth the risk.
[04:52] SPEAKER_01: So, you know, let's talk about where you're at in life.
[05:00] SPEAKER_01: We've talked about mental health and just for those that kind of jumped in on this.
[05:05] SPEAKER_01: You know, you're, you're one of a couple of entrepreneurs, as well as BDC.
[05:10] SPEAKER_01: And I think that we're interviewing kind of as part of the mental health and wellness special that's, I think, just to what other entrepreneurs know that they're, you know, that are low there resilient and driven people.
[05:28] SPEAKER_01: They can't always avoid, you know, mental health issues.
[05:35] SPEAKER_01: Maybe you can just sort of really focus a little bit on that.
[05:39] SPEAKER_01: And, and how you, you've bought that and worked through it and built yourself, you know, solid business basically.
[05:50] SPEAKER_00: And the journey for me.
[05:53] SPEAKER_00: There's always been a, there's always been a mental health issue there.
[05:57] SPEAKER_00: I just never wanted to admit it or or deal with it.
[06:02] SPEAKER_00: I've had depression.
[06:05] SPEAKER_00: Incidences since I was in my late teens.
[06:09] SPEAKER_00: I felt the way to deal with that was to work longer and harder hours.
[06:14] SPEAKER_00: So I've always been as most people say, fairly driven in terms of working towards something and doing everything I had to do to get there.
[06:23] SPEAKER_00: 70 hours a week never, never bothered me or how I felt never bothered me.
[06:28] SPEAKER_00: It was probably even 20 years ago that I first experienced kind of a deeper about depression and the answer for me at that time was medication and opening up a second business.
[06:42] SPEAKER_00: And I felt if I had more things to take up my time, I would have time to think about what was going wrong.
[06:49] SPEAKER_00: So I put everything I had into the second business.
[06:53] SPEAKER_00: And about six years ago, everything really came to a head.
[06:58] SPEAKER_00: So I have, I have PTSD.
[07:01] SPEAKER_00: It's a complex form from from chronic childhood abuse.
[07:05] SPEAKER_00: And I've also made up my mind.
[07:07] SPEAKER_00: I'm going to be very open about it because unfortunately not a lot of people talk about it.
[07:12] SPEAKER_00: And I think the more that we talk about it or open about it, the less stigma that's attached to it and more people understand what it's like.
[07:21] SPEAKER_00: Six years ago, I went through a really severe depression despite the success of the businesses that I had and someone asked me the other day, do I have any good memories?
[07:33] SPEAKER_00: You know, looking back at the businesses I had before and the sad thing is I started laughing about different stories that that you know experiences I had in those businesses.
[07:46] SPEAKER_00: And what struck me as sad is that I never took time to enjoy the journey when I was there.
[07:51] SPEAKER_00: I was always focused on what was next, what had to be done, what do we have to reach for?
[07:56] SPEAKER_00: And just nothing was ever seen to be enough and that that had a lot to do with my psychology.
[08:02] SPEAKER_00: But I think a lot of entrepreneurs are like that.
[08:06] SPEAKER_00: We're really trying to show that we can do something.
[08:10] SPEAKER_00: The depression six years ago, honestly took me out.
[08:14] SPEAKER_00: It was just at a point where I couldn't function and run the businesses.
[08:19] SPEAKER_00: So I ended up selling one business to my business partner and the other one to my employees at that time.
[08:27] SPEAKER_00: And all of a sudden I was left with no business.
[08:32] SPEAKER_00: And I felt like I was weak. I felt that there was something wrong with me.
[08:37] SPEAKER_00: And inside of me is this analyst as I mentioned.
[08:40] SPEAKER_00: So within about a month, I thought, well, I have to know, is it just me or other other people like me?
[08:46] SPEAKER_00: So I launched the mindset project, which was a research study into entrepreneurs, mental health and decision making.
[08:55] SPEAKER_00: And I look back now and I can't believe I got 425 entrepreneurs to take an hour to answer surface.
[09:04] SPEAKER_00: And what came through to me very quickly was boy, I was not alone.
[09:09] SPEAKER_00: And so I was in good company.
[09:12] SPEAKER_00: And in fact, it's one of the more prevalent professions where people will face mental health challenges.
[09:19] SPEAKER_00: And that started me down the road of why do so many entrepreneurs face anxiety, depression, and other types of mental health issues.
[09:28] SPEAKER_00: And what really hit me was it was the way we work.
[09:32] SPEAKER_00: We're so closely identified with the business.
[09:36] SPEAKER_00: It almost becomes a fusion.
[09:38] SPEAKER_00: Like a lot of people will identify with them being a broadcaster with them being an accountant, a lawyer, a doctor.
[09:47] SPEAKER_00: For entrepreneurs, it's a fusion.
[09:50] SPEAKER_00: So I am the business, the business is me.
[09:53] SPEAKER_00: So if things are going well, I feel good about myself.
[09:56] SPEAKER_00: If things start to go south, I don't feel so good about myself.
[10:00] SPEAKER_00: But if things fall, you fall with it.
[10:05] SPEAKER_00: So that was something that really hit me.
[10:07] SPEAKER_00: And then it was the expectation, like the expectations we put in ourselves.
[10:11] SPEAKER_00: No one ever told me we had to grow by 25% or whatever it is a year.
[10:17] SPEAKER_00: I just, that's something I believed I had to do.
[10:20] SPEAKER_00: And I always thought that whenever, like if you called and said, Mike, I need this by Monday.
[10:25] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I can do that. No problem.
[10:27] SPEAKER_00: Knowing full well, I don't know when I'm going to get that done.
[10:30] SPEAKER_00: But I'll, I'll do what I have to do to get there.
[10:33] SPEAKER_00: So all that together really got me thinking about.
[10:37] SPEAKER_00: We really have to have better working environments like we really have to treat ourselves better.
[10:42] SPEAKER_00: And because the instant rate of depression particularly for entrepreneurs is four times that of the general public.
[10:50] SPEAKER_00: So it's, it's definitely something that that we hit.
[10:54] SPEAKER_00: And we also isolate and don't talk about it.
[10:57] SPEAKER_00: So the new business I started within six months of me coming out of the other two.
[11:02] SPEAKER_00: And in some sense, why couldn't you have just taken a job as that's just not who I am.
[11:08] SPEAKER_00: So I started another business called work insights where we really focus on.
[11:14] SPEAKER_00: Measuring the working environment and understanding how to shape it more proactively so we can.
[11:19] SPEAKER_00: Both have performance and well being at the same time.
[11:22] SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of a long way around, but that's, that's really how I got where I am today.
[11:27] SPEAKER_00: And I have to say I did expect when I did the mindset project.
[11:34] SPEAKER_00: I had, I had this vision of all entrepreneurs kind of standing with me and saying yes, like this is what I face to.
[11:41] SPEAKER_00: What I found is that no one wanted to stand with me.
[11:44] SPEAKER_00: And so people would talk privately, but they would not talk publicly.
[11:49] SPEAKER_00: So there's this concern that if, if I actually.
[11:53] SPEAKER_00: I'm open about the challenges I'm facing and the struggles that I that I feel.
[11:59] SPEAKER_00: Then investors will question me.
[12:02] SPEAKER_00: Now clients can question me teams will question me.
[12:06] SPEAKER_00: And I understand that and I appreciate it.
[12:08] SPEAKER_00: And that's one of the unfortunate aspects of.
[12:11] SPEAKER_00: Kind of this.
[12:14] SPEAKER_00: Dragons then life that everybody seems to feel we have to lead.
[12:18] SPEAKER_00: And when I started the new business, I wanted to be really open about.
[12:24] SPEAKER_00: Who I am, what what I'm going through and really show that.
[12:30] SPEAKER_00: I can still be successful.
[12:32] SPEAKER_00: I can still be creative. I can still be productive.
[12:34] SPEAKER_00: In fact, I'm more so than ever.
[12:37] SPEAKER_00: My team know everything about me.
[12:40] SPEAKER_00: They're not my therapist, but.
[12:42] SPEAKER_00: I wanted them to understand that if I'm having an off day, it's got nothing to do with them.
[12:46] SPEAKER_00: And in fact, it's created this really trusting environment where we have.
[12:51] SPEAKER_00: I always say we have conversations, not meetings.
[12:54] SPEAKER_00: And they're open.
[12:56] SPEAKER_01: So you've gone through a lot.
[12:59] SPEAKER_01: Okay.
[13:00] SPEAKER_01: I'm just sort of wondering.
[13:02] SPEAKER_01: You know, this.
[13:04] SPEAKER_01: Audio, the audience and listen to us.
[13:06] SPEAKER_01: It's looks at this.
[13:08] SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of entrepreneurs that is.
[13:11] SPEAKER_01: Is it anything that you can kind of distill down into.
[13:17] SPEAKER_01: You know, how you overcome that the challenge.
[13:21] SPEAKER_01: The challenges that the health challenges that you met.
[13:27] SPEAKER_01: To keep.
[13:27] SPEAKER_01: And keep growing and you know, keep going and growing, if you like.
[13:33] SPEAKER_01: In terms of, you know, another, another entrepreneurial, you know, exploit and feel like.
[13:42] SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of it has to do with, you know, I've kind of.
[13:46] SPEAKER_00: I try really hard to be present.
[13:48] SPEAKER_00: I don't succeed a lot.
[13:50] SPEAKER_00: Like part of the entrepreneur is always looking ahead.
[13:53] SPEAKER_00: And your mind is always on a lot of different things.
[13:56] SPEAKER_00: And I really hesitated with mediation because all I was ever doing was making lists in my head when I was supposed to be meditating.
[14:03] SPEAKER_00: So my question, you know, how it would work for me.
[14:06] SPEAKER_00: But, but it actually does.
[14:08] SPEAKER_00: I meditate every day now.
[14:10] SPEAKER_00: But more than anything else, it was.
[14:13] SPEAKER_00: Finding the right therapist.
[14:16] SPEAKER_00: And I'm going to be a bit different probably than others in this one is I've.
[14:22] SPEAKER_00: A lot of times the first stop that people will make is to your GP.
[14:28] SPEAKER_00: Who doesn't generally have time.
[14:30] SPEAKER_00: And as soon as they hear, you know, I'm not sleeping like I used to.
[14:34] SPEAKER_00: I seem to be, you know, ruminating it up all the time.
[14:37] SPEAKER_00: And so, well, let me take the edge off.
[14:40] SPEAKER_00: Here's a prescription for an anxiety, any depressant, it'll be fine.
[14:44] SPEAKER_00: And all of a sudden, we're on medication.
[14:47] SPEAKER_00: I'm on a medication that I'm addicted to and I'm going to have a really hard time getting off of it.
[14:52] SPEAKER_00: So I think.
[14:54] SPEAKER_00: I think what entrepreneurs need to do is.
[14:58] SPEAKER_00: If you find yourself being tired, even when you haven't done anything.
[15:03] SPEAKER_00: So when you get up in the morning, you feel really tired.
[15:06] SPEAKER_00: That's not a good sign.
[15:07] SPEAKER_00: If you're not just worrying, but you're ruminating, you're thinking about what you could have done,
[15:12] SPEAKER_00: should have done, will do, won't do.
[15:14] SPEAKER_00: What's going to happen?
[15:15] SPEAKER_00: What do they think?
[15:16] SPEAKER_00: So when you're starting down those roads of just that constant chattering.
[15:21] SPEAKER_00: There's probably something going on and you're starting down a road.
[15:25] SPEAKER_00: The greatest thing about going down that road is you can turn around at any point.
[15:29] SPEAKER_00: I think finding a therapist to talk to, finding someone you can just be open and honest about.
[15:36] SPEAKER_00: Everything that's going on makes a huge difference.
[15:39] SPEAKER_00: And.
[15:40] SPEAKER_00: It can be a challenge finding the right therapist.
[15:43] SPEAKER_00: It's got to be someone you trust.
[15:45] SPEAKER_00: And someone you can just be open and honest about.
[15:48] SPEAKER_00: And sometimes a lot of entrepreneurs will say, you know, but they won't understand my business.
[15:53] SPEAKER_00: They don't have to understand your business.
[15:55] SPEAKER_00: They just have to understand you.
[15:57] SPEAKER_00: And I think that would be the biggest thing that can happen that would make the difference.
[16:03] SPEAKER_00: From there, it's putting in place good habits.
[16:06] SPEAKER_00: So exercise, eating and sleep and the things we never do for ourselves.
[16:11] SPEAKER_00: Take time for ourselves.
[16:13] SPEAKER_01: So amongst all of this, you know, I asked this question a lot.
[16:19] SPEAKER_01: Is there something what is the best piece of advice that you've received?
[16:25] SPEAKER_02: The keep on using.
[16:27] SPEAKER_02: You keep on going back to.
[16:33] SPEAKER_02: So one that I just went back to this week again.
[16:40] SPEAKER_00: Being active and outside makes the biggest difference.
[16:44] SPEAKER_00: I think of anything.
[16:46] SPEAKER_00: It's one of the simplest things you can do.
[16:48] SPEAKER_00: And it's one of the easiest things not to do.
[16:50] SPEAKER_00: And I weighed about 50 pounds more than I do now.
[16:57] SPEAKER_00: And I never, you know, wasn't was an active.
[17:01] SPEAKER_00: An exercise or.
[17:03] SPEAKER_00: And when I went through the depression, I happened to meet this really, really bright young guy who said, you know, I'll help you.
[17:11] SPEAKER_00: And he said, but you have to invest the time.
[17:14] SPEAKER_00: So.
[17:15] SPEAKER_00: I became a cyclist and I never thought that was something I would ever end up doing.
[17:20] SPEAKER_00: Absolutely love cycling.
[17:23] SPEAKER_00: And that's something I always had as a big part of my life.
[17:27] SPEAKER_00: I lost 50 pounds.
[17:28] SPEAKER_00: And I always called it cycle therapy because like when I was on the bike, things were better.
[17:33] SPEAKER_00: And just being out.
[17:34] SPEAKER_00: So hiking has also been a big thing for me.
[17:38] SPEAKER_00: Something happened this summer.
[17:39] SPEAKER_00: I started to the slide into another depression.
[17:42] SPEAKER_00: And sadly, the first thing I gave up was the bike.
[17:45] SPEAKER_00: And I look back and I can't believe I did it.
[17:48] SPEAKER_00: And it's only been the last week or so that.
[17:52] SPEAKER_00: You know, I've been back on the bike.
[17:54] SPEAKER_00: And it's funny how it actually.
[17:56] SPEAKER_00: Gave me that little sense of agency about my own life that it's one thing that I own that I got this time for myself.
[18:03] SPEAKER_00: So there's one piece of advice I would give.
[18:06] SPEAKER_00: Give on turners.
[18:07] SPEAKER_00: It would be to make that time to be active and particularly if it can be outside.
[18:12] SPEAKER_00: It's just something my mother had this old saying get out in the air and let the wind blow the stink off.
[18:19] SPEAKER_00: And you know, there's a lot of truth in that that just getting out and filling the air, getting the sun, whatever it is.
[18:25] SPEAKER_00: It does make you feel better.
[18:27] SPEAKER_00: The second thing is to talk to somebody like whether it's a therapist or whether it's a friend, whether it's a family member.
[18:34] SPEAKER_00: A lot of times friends and family members will try to fix you.
[18:39] SPEAKER_00: And they've got this, you know, kind of.
[18:42] SPEAKER_00: There's nothing malicious.
[18:43] SPEAKER_00: They just want to help.
[18:43] SPEAKER_00: So they often try to I would say fix you.
[18:46] SPEAKER_00: And I don't want to be fixed.
[18:48] SPEAKER_00: I just want to be able to talk.
[18:52] SPEAKER_00: So having that time to talk and having that time for yourself.
[18:56] SPEAKER_00: Those are the two biggest things you can do for yourself.
[18:59] SPEAKER_01: That's really good.
[19:00] SPEAKER_01: But you know, I think you know, I mean, with the pandemic or anything, the sort of the last six months that we've all been, you know, not enjoying, if you like.
[19:15] SPEAKER_01: Is there anything you can sort of give on that in terms of I mean, you know, we are a very, you know, bad time for a branch up for many, many of our entrepreneurial colleagues.
[19:28] SPEAKER_01: Is there anything you can sort of suggest to them that may, you know, that you may have found useful in your journey.
[19:43] SPEAKER_00: I strongly feel that although the physical health and the economics have been horrendous, you know, the lasting impact from the pandemic will be a mental health impact.
[19:56] SPEAKER_00: I think it's effective.
[19:58] SPEAKER_00: People, particularly young people way more than we understand right now.
[20:03] SPEAKER_00: And depending on how the winter goes, I think it could, you know, have an even heavier effect.
[20:12] SPEAKER_00: I think one of the biggest things that I would really try to encourage entrepreneurs right now.
[20:16] SPEAKER_00: As I mentioned, we associate ourselves so much with the business.
[20:21] SPEAKER_00: Right now, it's really tough. There's, there's, you know, there's some businesses that are doing well because of what, you know, placement or position they're in in the sector.
[20:30] SPEAKER_00: There's a lot that are going through some really challenging times to be able to separate yourself from that that it's not you.
[20:37] SPEAKER_00: It's the business.
[20:39] SPEAKER_00: So finding ways to get that separation is really important.
[20:46] SPEAKER_00: Sadly, there'll be businesses that will fail that doesn't mean that you are a failure.
[20:52] SPEAKER_00: There's going to be a lot of business that are facing downturns and and not, you know, getting the capital, getting the revenues that they had hoped or had planned for.
[21:02] SPEAKER_00: And again, that's not you that's the landscaper in.
[21:07] SPEAKER_00: So I know right now, like, you know, we launched our product in February, like a month before the shutdown.
[21:14] SPEAKER_00: And it's a could've been better timing on that one.
[21:17] SPEAKER_00: But actually we've had sales and I have to watch myself because, you know, people will say, well, you've done OK, like despite the pandemic.
[21:26] SPEAKER_00: And my first response has always been, but not to the level I told.
[21:30] SPEAKER_00: And I've changed that lately and like, God, you just you can't give it up. Can you?
[21:34] SPEAKER_00: So it's looking at yeah, we've done OK, we've made it through.
[21:38] SPEAKER_00: And you know, we're positioning ourselves for next year and, you know, and again, like everything you can do to separate your identity, like who you think you are from the business.
[21:50] SPEAKER_00: I think the safer places you're going to be in because you're you're looking at it as as a thing as a business.
[21:58] SPEAKER_00: It's something that's really important to you, but it's not you.
[22:02] SPEAKER_00: So that way, no matter what happens, you can recognize that you've got your own value.
[22:08] SPEAKER_00: And this, whatever has happened has been because of the pandemic and you can make the right decisions.
[22:14] SPEAKER_01: That's super, super, super input.
[22:18] SPEAKER_01: Michael, it's been a great session.
[22:22] SPEAKER_01: I always say, how can people get a hold of you? You know, if it was into this, they may want to connect with you by email, whatever you feel.
[22:32] SPEAKER_01: Is the right way for them to connect with you basically.
[22:36] SPEAKER_00: And I'm always happy to talk to people and always open the website is work insights.io.
[22:47] SPEAKER_00: And there'll be a contact there to get me.
[22:50] SPEAKER_00: I have the longest email probably around. So it's always hard, but it's.
[22:55] SPEAKER_00: I'll give it anyway. It's end of any of bluetooth divini.com.
[22:59] SPEAKER_00: So I think it's probably easier just to go to the website.
[23:02] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's a contact there and that'll come through to me.
[23:05] SPEAKER_00: Okay.
[23:06] SPEAKER_00: So work insights.io is the easiest place to find me.
[23:09] SPEAKER_01: Okay, Michael.
[23:11] SPEAKER_01: Thank you for coming on.
[23:14] SPEAKER_01: I'm sure a lot of people have been to listen to this and that it's been really, really useful for me as well.
[23:21] SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
[23:22] SPEAKER_00: I really appreciate the opportunity, Phil. And thank you for having me on. It's been a pleasure.