============================================================
TRANSCRIPTION WITH SPEAKERS
============================================================
[00:00] SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Canada's podcast, the number one podcast for entrepreneurs by
[00:06] SPEAKER_00: entrepreneurs. Hi, welcome to Canada's podcast. I'm your host, Celine
[00:10] SPEAKER_00: Williams and today I'm here with Jesse Berger who is a former financial
[00:14] SPEAKER_00: services professional with over a decade of experience working with Canada's
[00:18] SPEAKER_00: leading financial institutions including roles in retail banking, investment,
[00:23] SPEAKER_00: advisory, management consulting and market research. An MBA, a certified block
[00:28] SPEAKER_00: chain professional and he recently authored a lively and timely book titled
[00:32] SPEAKER_00: Magic Internet Money, a book about Bitcoin. Thanks for joining me, Jesse. Thank
[00:37] SPEAKER_01: you so much for having me, Celine. It's great to be here. I'm excited to get into
[00:41] SPEAKER_00: this conversation. One, because I'm curious about your journey as an entrepreneur
[00:45] SPEAKER_00: and I got to see the book on the screen and it's real cool. But also because I
[00:50] SPEAKER_00: think people have a lot of questions about Bitcoin myself included. So I think
[00:54] SPEAKER_00: this will be really super interesting. So with that said, I'd love to start
[00:58] SPEAKER_00: with you kind of telling our listeners a little about who you are and how you've
[01:02] SPEAKER_00: got to where you're at now including writing this this very cool book. Yeah,
[01:08] SPEAKER_01: absolutely. So as you said, my background was in financial services working in
[01:13] SPEAKER_01: retail banking at Royal Bank. I worked at a full service full service brokerage
[01:19] SPEAKER_01: firm called McCory Private Wealth on Bass Street for three years. After that, I
[01:24] SPEAKER_01: went to get my MBA and actually one of the highlights of doing that was I
[01:27] SPEAKER_01: competed in a investment themed case competition sponsored by the Economist
[01:32] SPEAKER_01: Magazine where Ryerson, which was where I went to school, competed against, it
[01:38] SPEAKER_01: was over 25 schools from around the world. And my team, we ended up winning the
[01:44] SPEAKER_01: entire case both in terms of the judges, deeming us first place. But also we
[01:50] SPEAKER_01: produced a video and essay that was online on the Economist website and we won the
[01:54] SPEAKER_01: popular choice as judged by visitors to the website. So that was sort of a cool
[01:59] SPEAKER_01: highlight from my time doing that. Works in management consulting. I again sort of
[02:06] SPEAKER_01: worked for a role bank this time as a contractor for a financial for a financial
[02:12] SPEAKER_01: services consulting company downtown before subsequently moving to a company
[02:16] SPEAKER_01: called Verde Group, which is sort of a smaller market research focused
[02:21] SPEAKER_01: consulting company. They are in Corp Town in downtown Toronto. And so I did that
[02:26] SPEAKER_01: for two years and I managed the entire global market outreach program for
[02:31] SPEAKER_01: sunlight while I was there. And during basically during that time, I got exposed
[02:37] SPEAKER_01: to the, we'll call it the financial markets of blockchain, crypto, Bitcoin, all
[02:43] SPEAKER_01: of that. But my actual roots and interest in Bitcoin specifically date back to
[02:48] SPEAKER_01: 2007 when I had started working basically at the bottom rung on the front lines
[02:55] SPEAKER_01: of the financial services industry and the global financial crisis hit. And I, you
[03:02] SPEAKER_01: know, my education and understanding of economics was was rocked to a certain
[03:07] SPEAKER_01: degree. And I started relearning and basically re-teaching myself economics
[03:13] SPEAKER_01: through a different lens. And what I say when I say that what I'm referring to
[03:17] SPEAKER_01: is what's called the Austrian School of Economics, which is effectively a
[03:20] SPEAKER_01: different perspective for viewing and understanding economics. And it's
[03:25] SPEAKER_01: different from what is predominantly taught in, you know, our major academic
[03:29] SPEAKER_01: institutions. So understanding it from that lens, I started really learning
[03:33] SPEAKER_01: about what money is, how it works. I asked myself the question, what is money? And
[03:40] SPEAKER_01: that's a question that I think people seldom really give thorough consideration.
[03:45] SPEAKER_01: And it's something that's, especially it's becoming more pronounced every day
[03:49] SPEAKER_01: these days. But it's something that's very, very important and something that we
[03:52] SPEAKER_01: should all be keenly aware of and try to try our best to learn it. So me writing
[03:57] SPEAKER_01: this book ended up being a culmination of a whole bunch of different experiences.
[04:02] SPEAKER_00: I love that. I am going to ask a really basic question for those who like me might
[04:07] SPEAKER_00: not know a lot about this. When you say, you know, you talk about cryptocurrency,
[04:10] SPEAKER_00: you mentioned blockchain. Obviously your book is about Bitcoin. Can you kind of
[04:16] SPEAKER_00: define what those are for people listening? Because I think we hear a lot about
[04:20] SPEAKER_00: them in the media or dropped. But I don't think a lot of people I know at least
[04:25] SPEAKER_00: really don't understand it. Like they're not clear on what the differences are
[04:30] SPEAKER_00: similarities or if there's a category or what it is. So this is actually a really
[04:34] SPEAKER_01: great question. I'm actually very glad you asked this. Bitcoin is, you know, people
[04:39] SPEAKER_01: like to refer to it as sort of the original cryptocurrency. And you have these
[04:44] SPEAKER_01: other quote cryptos, whether it's I'm not going to name names, but there's other
[04:49] SPEAKER_01: sort of currencies that are out there that are trying to replicate certain
[04:55] SPEAKER_01: aspects of Bitcoin in the sense that they are trying to funnel trust and value
[05:03] SPEAKER_01: into this distributed ledger if we want to stick with that. But Bitcoin is
[05:12] SPEAKER_01: different from all of the others. And there's a lot of reasons for that. You
[05:17] SPEAKER_01: know, we can slowly go into that during our conversation. But in my mind, I
[05:21] SPEAKER_01: very distinctly separate Bitcoin from crypto, which is sort of this much more
[05:28] SPEAKER_01: risky speculative market, whereas Bitcoin is very much more established and firm
[05:34] SPEAKER_01: and resolute in what it's trying to achieve and what its system, its network
[05:38] SPEAKER_01: actually accomplishes, whereas these other quote cryptos are maybe a little
[05:44] SPEAKER_01: more vague, maybe a little harder to define. And then blockchain, people often
[05:50] SPEAKER_01: confuse blockchain as like the thing in this whole space. Blockchain is one
[05:58] SPEAKER_01: component of Bitcoin, but it is not all there is. You know, it's not the B
[06:05] SPEAKER_01: all and then all. It's not a panacea the way we often project it to be if you
[06:10] SPEAKER_01: read headlines of business newspapers and things. Blockchain is effectively just
[06:14] SPEAKER_01: a shared database. You could think of it almost like Google Docs where different
[06:20] SPEAKER_01: people contribute to it and everyone can see everyone else's edits to it. The
[06:25] SPEAKER_01: difference between a blockchain and something like Bitcoin is Bitcoin is open
[06:30] SPEAKER_01: and permissionless. So everyone and anyone, no matter who you are, where you are,
[06:34] SPEAKER_01: can participate. And the system is completely open so that everyone is effectively
[06:40] SPEAKER_01: reinforcing and defending the network. Whereas with something like blockchain,
[06:44] SPEAKER_01: you can have it as a closed system where only certain actors are able to
[06:49] SPEAKER_01: access it and perhaps it is centralized in the sense that, okay, only certain
[06:54] SPEAKER_01: managers or people have authorities or powers to edit or change things. Whereas
[06:59] SPEAKER_01: with Bitcoin, everyone has access to everything. There is no restriction. And the
[07:05] SPEAKER_01: way that it's designed, and again, I maybe sound I'm sounding a little vague and
[07:09] SPEAKER_01: getting off track, but the way that Bitcoin is designed is that it is self-
[07:14] SPEAKER_01: reinforcing so that even if bad actors do try to attack it, it is so incredibly
[07:19] SPEAKER_01: difficult that it basically can't happen at this point. And that's not the same
[07:23] SPEAKER_01: for blockchain where someone could just decide, okay, I want to edit the way or
[07:27] SPEAKER_01: change the way this is working. Interesting. So that's a lot at once, I know. No, no, no,
[07:34] SPEAKER_00: it's I'm not technically oriented. So I'm going to ask some questions that might be
[07:38] SPEAKER_00: very basic. Is there, so is Bitcoin, I'm going to use a term open source and I'm
[07:46] SPEAKER_00: going to use the term decentralized and you can correct me if those things are wrong.
[07:50] SPEAKER_00: But is that kind of the one of the selling points about Bitcoin or have I totally
[07:57] SPEAKER_01: misinterpreted what you said? No, those are important aspects of it, open source
[08:02] SPEAKER_01: meaning anyone anywhere can a, download the software, b, run the software, c, propose
[08:10] SPEAKER_01: changes to the software, d, run their own changes to the software, even if it doesn't,
[08:15] SPEAKER_01: even if it isn't in line with the rest of network, however, if you do run changes that
[08:19] SPEAKER_01: are not in line with the network, you may end up being excluded from the network, which
[08:23] SPEAKER_01: defeats the point. So that's the open source part. And decentralized simply means that
[08:30] SPEAKER_01: everyone can maintain a copy and run the program, right? So whether I have a copy of
[08:37] SPEAKER_01: the Bitcoin ledger, which is all of the transactions that have taken dating back to its inception,
[08:42] SPEAKER_01: I could have a complete history on my desktop and then I could also have the program
[08:49] SPEAKER_01: itself, which is how you are generating more transactions in the ledger running. And
[08:53] SPEAKER_01: everyone has a copy of that software. So it is decentralized in the sense that everyone
[08:58] SPEAKER_01: has it. So there's no one place to go to to shut it down. But yes, those are two important
[09:05] SPEAKER_00: aspects of Bitcoin for sure. I'm going to, you know, I'm going to take it back to the
[09:10] SPEAKER_00: book for a second. What made you decide to write a book about Bitcoin? Like what was the,
[09:14] SPEAKER_00: what is it that either you find so fascinating about it or you thought people really need
[09:19] SPEAKER_00: to get this or understand this in a way that's not out there currently. And I recognize
[09:24] SPEAKER_00: there's probably not a ton of books on Bitcoin's Bitcoin at this point. But like what was your
[09:30] SPEAKER_00: intresting it drive to put this out in the world?
[09:33] SPEAKER_01: Yeah. So my motivation, it's stemmed initially from that, that Austrian economic viewpoint
[09:39] SPEAKER_01: where, okay, when you understand sort of economics and money a little differently, you start to
[09:45] SPEAKER_01: understand that money, you know, you could think of it like a technology. It has qualities and
[09:49] SPEAKER_01: characteristics. And all of our lives, all of our parents lives, most of our grandparents lives,
[09:55] SPEAKER_01: we've sort of grown up with money as this assumption that's just in the background. We don't actually
[10:00] SPEAKER_01: think about how do we make money better. And then also what are the ramifications of money,
[10:07] SPEAKER_01: right? So based on the current system, based on its characteristics and properties,
[10:11] SPEAKER_01: how does that affect, you know, our business life, our investing life? How does that affect the way
[10:17] SPEAKER_01: that we grow together as an economy and as a society? Money is like the soil for, you know,
[10:26] SPEAKER_01: the tree of society, right? If you have very nutrient-rich, watered soil that, you know,
[10:33] SPEAKER_01: received sunlight, you're going to grow this big beautiful tree with robust, you know, branches
[10:38] SPEAKER_01: and leaves that come back season after season. But if the soil is barren, if it doesn't get water,
[10:43] SPEAKER_01: if it doesn't get sunlight, that tree is going to decay and die. And so my, because I had this
[10:49] SPEAKER_01: understanding of, oh, money is something with qualities, it's not just about the quantity,
[10:54] SPEAKER_01: how much money we have, it's something that has qualities. I wanted to try to explain that.
[11:00] SPEAKER_01: And then, and I'm sorry. So again, my understanding that that phenomenon existed of the
[11:05] SPEAKER_01: relationship between money and society dates back to 2007. Bitcoin came out in 2009. But I didn't
[11:12] SPEAKER_01: really sink my teeth into it until 2017 when I actually tried transacting with it for the first
[11:18] SPEAKER_01: time. And that was a big like light bulb moment for me when you actually send a transaction on
[11:26] SPEAKER_01: the network. And then you have these nerves of, oh, my God, did the money actually arrive on
[11:31] SPEAKER_01: the other end because it has to go through this decentralized as we were talking about network,
[11:36] SPEAKER_01: that is not dependent on, yep, the bank just click check and signed off on it. It really hammers home
[11:42] SPEAKER_01: the value of owning money that you know, it's, it's placed in the greater network, right? We,
[11:51] SPEAKER_01: today, we chase money, you know, we're all working, we're on this hamster, we're chasing money,
[11:54] SPEAKER_01: money, money. And we always need more because everything's getting more expensive, more expensive,
[11:58] SPEAKER_01: more expensive, more expensive. We don't have to do things that way. Like there is an alternative.
[12:04] SPEAKER_01: We don't have to have an inflation based society. We could have a deflationary society where
[12:08] SPEAKER_01: when you earn money and then save it, that money that you saved can actually grow in purchasing power.
[12:15] SPEAKER_01: Like that is an actual thing that that was possible. But we didn't have the tool for it until Bitcoin.
[12:23] SPEAKER_01: So that, a lot of that started to click home from you starting in 2017, rolling into 2019 when I
[12:29] SPEAKER_01: eventually decided to write the book. And basically I decided to write the book, you know, because I
[12:34] SPEAKER_01: wanted to explain a lot of what I just said to you right now. But also to really help
[12:39] SPEAKER_01: shine a light on some of the faults in our current system because, you know,
[12:45] SPEAKER_01: bluntly, frankly speaking, there are a lot of faults. It causes a lot of harm that can be hard to
[12:51] SPEAKER_01: quantify and discuss at times. And so I wanted to try to really make all of these things a little
[13:00] SPEAKER_00: easier to see and understand. So I'm so I have so many questions now. I'd love that. Thank you
[13:07] SPEAKER_00: for sharing all that. I'm sure I can't I don't even understand scratching the surface of the issues
[13:11] SPEAKER_00: that there are with our current system. And I can totally get that there are way more than I even
[13:18] SPEAKER_00: could possibly begin to understand. And so the thing I'm one of the things I'm curious about
[13:24] SPEAKER_00: is I guess how what is the difference with Bitcoin? Why is it the opportunity that you see that
[13:33] SPEAKER_00: can change some of these things that can move us away from inflation towards deflation that
[13:39] SPEAKER_00: can allow you to, you know, sort of grow your money in that in a different way?
[13:45] SPEAKER_01: So when I think about money and economics and how it all interacts,
[13:52] SPEAKER_01: I'm actively thinking about like what is the goal of money and a monetary system? That that is
[13:59] SPEAKER_01: a very key component of all of this. Like what are we accomplishing? And that's again, so
[14:05] SPEAKER_00: and I think a question not a lot of people ask. So I think it's a I think it's a great starting point.
[14:10] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so that's the starting point. So I'll give you a couple of points to try to maybe highlight
[14:17] SPEAKER_01: some of those defects that we were mentioning. Before we had money, we had Barta, right? Barta is
[14:24] SPEAKER_01: I'm going to trade you five apples and you're going to give me six chickens, whatever. We're
[14:28] SPEAKER_01: constantly doing all of these calculations. What is item A worth versus item B? And then now that
[14:34] SPEAKER_01: I have item A because I gave out my item B, how do I then exchange that for item C? So you're
[14:40] SPEAKER_01: doing these calculations in your, right? With Barta and it gets very tedious and confusing and
[14:46] SPEAKER_01: you have no common language for talking value to different actors who have different skills or
[14:53] SPEAKER_01: produce different things. So money, the idea of money is that you are creating this common basis
[14:59] SPEAKER_01: for commerce that allows us to all check the same scorecard for evaluating value. Now,
[15:09] SPEAKER_01: the thing that Bitcoin does that is successful is that that scorecard was set in stone, the minute
[15:16] SPEAKER_01: the system went live online. Everyone knew from the minute it was born that there are only going
[15:21] SPEAKER_01: to be 21 million coins and they are going to be issued on this pre-determined schedule. And there
[15:27] SPEAKER_01: is a real world cost to bring them into existence. Mining, we don't have to go into all the details
[15:33] SPEAKER_01: of that just now, but mining is a costly process and that's a good thing because money can't just
[15:41] SPEAKER_01: be created for free by one person and someone else doesn't have that same privilege. So by having
[15:46] SPEAKER_01: a fair system that anyone can participate in, anyone can transact in, you have this very level
[15:53] SPEAKER_01: playing field and it makes it very easy to identify value which makes trading much easier. Conversely,
[16:01] SPEAKER_01: in our current system, every time we print money or change the interest rate, we don't know what's
[16:06] SPEAKER_01: going to happen until it happens. So there's a lot of uncertainty in that and that confuses these
[16:12] SPEAKER_01: price signals, right? We don't know what something is really worth because the measuring stick keeps
[16:17] SPEAKER_01: changing an inch isn't an inch anymore, an inch is now a mile, whereas with Bitcoin an inch is an
[16:22] SPEAKER_01: inch. So you're always measuring using the same measuring tape. So that's one of the very large and
[16:31] SPEAKER_01: very significant advantages that Bitcoin has over what's called Fiat currency, which is currency
[16:38] SPEAKER_01: that is by Dictat. That is this group in their small office that decides, you know what? Today,
[16:46] SPEAKER_01: we need $100 trillion to save the economy. And my answer to that is, well, how do you know it's
[16:51] SPEAKER_01: not $90 trillion or billion? How do you know it's not $110 billion? Why is 2% the perfect inflation rate?
[16:57] SPEAKER_01: Why not 1.75%? How do you know that all of the actions or that this number or this target is going
[17:08] SPEAKER_01: to perfectly satisfy every single actor in the economy who has very different preferences and needs
[17:14] SPEAKER_00: at any given time? There's a lot that goes into it basically. I want to switch gears in a second,
[17:21] SPEAKER_00: but I do want to ask this first because I think a lot of people, it was, you know, and I don't,
[17:28] SPEAKER_00: I'm not going to get the year right, but when there was a Bitcoin crash, there were lots of people
[17:32] SPEAKER_00: that lost millions of dollars. We've all read the new story about that person who invested and lost
[17:38] SPEAKER_00: made millions of dollars and got out of it and was happy and lost at all. And I think that a lot of
[17:44] SPEAKER_00: people have a misconception and a fear of something like Bitcoin because they read those,
[17:50] SPEAKER_00: they read those stories. That's one point in time. And then they don't know enough about,
[17:55] SPEAKER_00: you know, the in between. And I guess my question is for someone who is listening to this and going,
[18:02] SPEAKER_00: I know someone who lost all kinds of money in Bitcoin. I read that new story and it seems very risky.
[18:09] SPEAKER_00: What would you say to them besides get your book, which will obviously link in the show,
[18:13] SPEAKER_00: because they definitely do that. But besides like read the book, is there anything that you would say
[18:17] SPEAKER_01: as a starting point? Yeah, I'll start by saying this. Bitcoin is different, right? It is not the money
[18:25] SPEAKER_01: that we are accustomed to. There's no escaping that. And that's, we call that a feature, not a bug,
[18:31] SPEAKER_01: right? That is, it is intentionally different. And one of the differences, and I keep saying one of,
[18:38] SPEAKER_01: because there's always meant there's so many of them. One of the differences is that
[18:44] SPEAKER_01: you are personally responsible for your Bikwins. There is no insurance. There is no bank. There's
[18:50] SPEAKER_01: no administrator. If you send a transaction that goes wrong, if you store it with an untrustworthy
[18:56] SPEAKER_01: third party, there is no one else to blame, unfortunately. And that's a reality of Bitcoin and a
[19:04] SPEAKER_01: reality of a system that encourages self responsibility among its users. So to get up and running
[19:14] SPEAKER_01: with Bitcoin, and another issue with this is that because Bitcoin is decentralized, you know,
[19:22] SPEAKER_01: it's not like if I want to learn about, we mentioned World Bank earlier, so I'll say World Bank.
[19:27] SPEAKER_01: If I want to learn about World Bank, I go to rbc.com or rbcworldbank.com, whatever their website is.
[19:31] SPEAKER_01: And I can get all the information about their different products and services.
[19:35] SPEAKER_01: If I want to learn about Bitcoin, there is no one stop shop for that. You have to
[19:42] SPEAKER_01: sort of actively source it and test your theories or find someone who you think is trustworthy
[19:48] SPEAKER_01: that you know who's been in it before. And that is a challenge with Bitcoin. There is no escaping.
[19:54] SPEAKER_01: That is a challenge of this system that we, as you can see, we, I mean me and sort of the people
[20:01] SPEAKER_01: that I know in the community that I'm a part of in Bitcoin. We have a responsibility now to try
[20:06] SPEAKER_01: to teach people not just the benefits of Bitcoin as a monetary system, but how to be responsible
[20:12] SPEAKER_01: if you are going to participate in the system. It is a hurdle. There's no getting around it.
[20:18] SPEAKER_01: But it's very important because Bitcoin, I heard someone recently say, Bitcoin is a, it's sort of
[20:23] SPEAKER_01: a teacher unto itself. It teaches a lot of lessons in the way that its network operates.
[20:29] SPEAKER_01: And self-responsibility, being responsible for your actions is one of the things it teaches.
[20:34] SPEAKER_01: And just to maybe talk a little bit to the flip side of that, having something like a bank that
[20:40] SPEAKER_01: can administer, oh, I screwed up, I made this, I made this, I sent a wire to the wrong person,
[20:44] SPEAKER_01: I sent a transaction to the wrong thing, whatever I need to reverse it. There are costs to having
[20:50] SPEAKER_01: an administrator that are hidden. Like we're maybe not hidden, but they are more significant
[20:56] SPEAKER_01: than maybe we give them credit for. We're paying hefty fees to banks because they are constantly
[21:02] SPEAKER_01: administering these errors among the other things they're doing. That can take a toll and it can
[21:08] SPEAKER_01: also lead to people being sloppy, which is irresponsible. I'm just going to send this transaction,
[21:13] SPEAKER_01: it went to the wrong place, I'll just email, they'll fix it. Well, now you're creating inefficiencies
[21:18] SPEAKER_01: and bloats, and that's something that Bitcoin actively avoids. It insists on you take full responsibility
[21:26] SPEAKER_01: for everything that you do. And so, yes, we've had very, very readily exchanges that have been hacked or
[21:35] SPEAKER_01: scam investment schemes. And that sucks. There's no, again, there's no getting around that. But
[21:43] SPEAKER_01: that's not Bitcoin's fault. You trusted someone to hold onto your money. You made that decision,
[21:50] SPEAKER_01: and you have to own that decision. It sucks to tell people that because I know people have lost a lot
[21:55] SPEAKER_01: of money, and I mean, I shouldn't say I'm telling people that it sucks to have gone through that.
[22:00] SPEAKER_01: I personally have lost money in this as well. It's sort of for me ended up being a cost of a lesson
[22:05] SPEAKER_01: that I've now learned. And the best we can do now is, okay, let's learn from these, teach these so
[22:11] SPEAKER_01: that we don't make those same mistakes going forward so that we can be better for going forward. That's
[22:14] SPEAKER_01: how we learn and grow, right? You're an entrepreneur. You learn, people talk about you learn by failing
[22:20] SPEAKER_01: sometimes. That's how we get better. When we take out, you know, I'm going to veer off a little bit
[22:26] SPEAKER_01: here to the fiat system. When we bail out losing organizations, we're saying, you know, oh, there's
[22:33] SPEAKER_01: no failure. And we can just, there's no end to the cost of your failure, which we'll just keep
[22:37] SPEAKER_01: paying the cost of your failure. There's a moral hazard in that. That is very problematic. And again,
[22:42] SPEAKER_01: Bitcoin because it is so ardent and you take responsibility for your actions, it can be that
[22:50] SPEAKER_01: soil that creates a more self-responsible resilient type of community in society.
[22:56] SPEAKER_00: So there's two things that popped into my head. One of the things that you said that I think it's
[22:59] SPEAKER_00: really important is that it's not Bitcoin's fault. It's not the system's fault. And I think,
[23:04] SPEAKER_00: you know, I would guess that a lot, people have a lot of fear on that because we are so used to
[23:08] SPEAKER_00: being able to blame the system. We're so used to having, you know, it is a bank's fault. It is
[23:14] SPEAKER_00: the system's fault. Or at least we feel that way. And there's much more room to blame the system.
[23:19] SPEAKER_00: And, you know, by saying it's not Bitcoin's fault, I think that is super important as a mindset
[23:24] SPEAKER_00: shift because it's an entirely different way of thinking about this. I, as you said that, as you
[23:30] SPEAKER_01: brought up that point, I want to read. So my book, I have a lot of quotes that sort of run the
[23:35] SPEAKER_01: gamut, whether it's in the entertainment world, philosophy, politics, cryptographers, you name it.
[23:41] SPEAKER_01: I have quotes from all different people from all different rounds. So one of the ones that you
[23:45] SPEAKER_01: just reminded me of was, quote, people often represent the weakest link in the security chain
[23:50] SPEAKER_01: and are chronically responsible for the failure of security systems. End quote. So that's by Bruce
[23:55] SPEAKER_01: Schneer, who is a cryptographer. Yeah, when you look at different hacks, not even Bitcoin, just
[24:03] SPEAKER_01: PlayStation or whatever, you know, they lost customer data or credit card information.
[24:07] SPEAKER_01: A lot of that ends up being humans implementing systems that are flawed. It's not, you know,
[24:12] SPEAKER_01: software executes. That's all software does. You program it. It responds. It doesn't have a
[24:17] SPEAKER_01: choice. It cannot choose to either do something or not does something. It does what it's program to do.
[24:22] SPEAKER_01: So it's on the person programming it to make sure they're doing it right. And that's again,
[24:28] SPEAKER_00: sort of a lesson that Bitcoin teaches. Yeah. And the other thing that came to mind, I
[24:32] SPEAKER_00: appreciate you saying that the other thing that came to mind was that this is just, it's a,
[24:38] SPEAKER_00: there's risk in everything. And it's just a different kind of risk. And I think for people who
[24:42] SPEAKER_00: read the stories and hear, you know, the bad news and had a friend who lost everything and
[24:46] SPEAKER_00: whatever the case may be, it's that they don't understand this risk as much as they're used to the
[24:52] SPEAKER_00: risk of the sort of the fiat system as you, is that what did I get it right? The fiat system?
[24:56] SPEAKER_00: Right. They get that. Everyone gets that. We grew up with it. We're used to it. We assume
[25:03] SPEAKER_00: that because we're familiar with it, there's less risk. It's not necessarily that there's less risk.
[25:09] SPEAKER_00: It's just that we've accepted that as the risk that we're comfortable with.
[25:13] SPEAKER_01: Right. Exactly. So the risks and rewards of Bitcoin are very different than what we are accustomed to.
[25:22] SPEAKER_01: And it does take a little bit of a perspective change to try to wrap you have to be, you know, open
[25:27] SPEAKER_01: to trying to wrap your head around it because it is so different. But in my view, all of the risks
[25:37] SPEAKER_01: over time have gotten less and less. And the, well, I don't want to say the potential rewards have
[25:43] SPEAKER_01: gotten high. You know, that's a personal bias. And I don't want to, I guess go into the financial
[25:47] SPEAKER_01: side of it that too much because I could go on about that. But over time as the software, as the
[25:56] SPEAKER_01: program matures, as user experience and the companies that are growing up around Bitcoin,
[26:03] SPEAKER_01: mature and figure out how best to serve their customers, it becomes easier and easier to use
[26:09] SPEAKER_01: with less and less risk implied. And we're seeing that day by day.
[26:13] SPEAKER_00: Yeah. I appreciate that. That makes sense. So I want to talk about your book a little bit.
[26:19] SPEAKER_00: First of all, I think it's amazing that you wrote a book because I know that the actual writing process
[26:23] SPEAKER_00: is quite an endeavor. And I'm curious, as a, you know, someone with a background in finance,
[26:30] SPEAKER_00: I'm guessing you probably, you know, 10 years ago weren't thinking, I'm going to write a book one day
[26:35] SPEAKER_00: as the thing that I spend my time doing. I'm very comfortable being wrong about that.
[26:41] SPEAKER_00: But what was that experience like? And, and how do you feel now that it's done?
[26:48] SPEAKER_01: I'll go back 18 months ago. I didn't see myself writing a book. I had no idea that I would be writing a
[26:53] SPEAKER_01: book. Yeah. It's funny. What, what ended up happening was, so I had left my job. I was doing this
[26:59] SPEAKER_01: managing the market research program for Sun Life at at Verde Group. And I knew I needed to,
[27:04] SPEAKER_01: to be in Bitcoin. So I had a lot of different industries and education that I've had. And so
[27:09] SPEAKER_01: I was focused on, there's the money side of it, there's the governance side, there's
[27:14] SPEAKER_01: freedom and sovereignty, there's the technology and innovation. Then there's also my big value ad,
[27:23] SPEAKER_01: which is the storytelling and framing the arguments and adding context to everything. That was
[27:29] SPEAKER_01: something I had picked up a couple years earlier or had really started to tune into that. That
[27:38] SPEAKER_01: if you can employ it correctly. And it's very tricky at times. But I realized that, you know, Bitcoin,
[27:45] SPEAKER_01: there are Bitcoin books out there. And I've learned a great deal from, from the other because there
[27:49] SPEAKER_01: are some sensational books out there. But I wanted to tell it in a way that was very friendly,
[27:55] SPEAKER_01: very approachable. I have like 15 or 20 pages of whether it's full page images and a couple graphs
[28:02] SPEAKER_01: and mental models and things, just to make it seem, again, that very friendly is a good word for
[28:10] SPEAKER_01: for what this book is. And then also because it was a PowerPoint, it started when you do a PowerPoint,
[28:16] SPEAKER_01: you're typically making like one argument per slide. I kept that in the book where every single page
[28:22] SPEAKER_01: is its own argument. And then I'm very slowly and meticulously building the arguments one on top
[28:28] SPEAKER_01: of the other so that as you read through and start to step back and zoom out, you're now getting
[28:33] SPEAKER_01: this clear rural picture of, oh, this is what Bitcoin is. This is how it came into being and why it
[28:39] SPEAKER_01: came into being and why it seems to matter to so many people. So yeah, it all just came together,
[28:44] SPEAKER_00: basically. I love it 18 months ago. You were like, I'm not ever going to write a book. No,
[28:50] SPEAKER_01: I always thought I was a decent writer, but never that I could write an actual book. Like, that was
[28:57] SPEAKER_01: that was a very lofty thing that I thought I could never attain. And here we are. I think that's
[29:02] SPEAKER_00: phenomenal. And it sounds like a really key piece of this for you is that it's, I'm going to
[29:07] SPEAKER_00: use a term bite size ticket. I don't mean that in any kind of negative way. That's a great way.
[29:12] SPEAKER_00: That's a great way to describe it. But that it really is bite size. So it is, you know, you can
[29:17] SPEAKER_00: consume it in a reasonable way where it's not overwhelming. We were talking about some books
[29:22] SPEAKER_00: prior to hitting record. And I was saying a lot of them seem and not Bitcoin specific,
[29:26] SPEAKER_00: but people are terrified to talk about money and finances. It's like a dirty little secret for
[29:31] SPEAKER_00: people. And so they try and read these books and they go out and find them. And a lot of them are
[29:35] SPEAKER_00: really, you know, basic and simple or their tones that are dry and hard to consume. And it sounds
[29:43] SPEAKER_00: like you very intentionally created something that is none of those things. I tried to be extremely
[29:52] SPEAKER_01: straightforward and as frank as I could be with the audience. And I showed you all I'll put it
[29:57] SPEAKER_01: on video on maybe audio listeners won't see. So this is the cover of the book. It was I'll say very
[30:01] SPEAKER_00: meticulously designed with by me and my designer. I just want to say for anyone who is not seeing this
[30:06] SPEAKER_00: there as a wizard on the front of this book, which is an amazing image. Please continue.
[30:11] SPEAKER_01: What I want to point out is actually not the front of the book, but the back. All it is is three
[30:16] SPEAKER_01: words. What is money? That is the essence of what I'm trying to convey. I someone in the Bitcoin
[30:24] SPEAKER_01: community recently said that the question, what is money is the rabbit that you chase down the Bitcoin
[30:30] SPEAKER_00: rabbit hole? I think that is a brilliant quote. And I also think that we don't ask ourselves that
[30:37] SPEAKER_00: question. Most, most people don't ask ourselves that question because this is just the way things are.
[30:45] SPEAKER_01: And it is supremely important. It is the most powerful tool on the planet. We all use money
[30:55] SPEAKER_01: every day. Money is a language of sorts. It's a way that we communicate economic knowledge and the
[31:02] SPEAKER_01: way that we exchange value and ideas and products and services. And we need the best money to be
[31:12] SPEAKER_01: able to have the best products and services and knowledge. That's what it comes down to.
[31:17] SPEAKER_01: For my part, my understanding after, again, I asked that question, what is money 13 years ago to
[31:23] SPEAKER_01: myself? And it's sort of haunted me ever since. But now I feel like, okay, this is my attempt at,
[31:29] SPEAKER_01: and I say attempt very intentionally because there's no perfect answer to this. I don't know that any
[31:33] SPEAKER_01: of this is right or wrong. But this is my attempt at providing an answer and my attempt to get you
[31:39] SPEAKER_01: to think about some things. I tell you I'm blunt and I'm frank in the book. And I also try to,
[31:45] SPEAKER_01: in a way, ask questions to the reader to make you think about, oh, is this what a good monetary
[31:52] SPEAKER_01: system can or should be? Like, I want you to be actively involved. You, the reader to be actively
[31:57] SPEAKER_01: involved in thinking along with the book because at the end of the day, no one is going to take
[32:03] SPEAKER_01: care of your money, but you can trust your money to the bank. And that's not to say there's anything
[32:08] SPEAKER_01: wrong with Canadian banks as a place to keep, you know, thousands of dollars or whatever. But
[32:14] SPEAKER_01: the gatekeepers that determine the qualities of money, those are the entities and I'm typically
[32:22] SPEAKER_01: referring to central banks here. Those are the entities that we really need to question, you know,
[32:27] SPEAKER_01: how are their policies affecting us? Are they really affecting us for better or are they maybe
[32:34] SPEAKER_01: not doing us as many favors as we'd like to think? I think the people who are listening or
[32:40] SPEAKER_00: watching this are going to start to think about money differently and start to ask themselves
[32:44] SPEAKER_00: different questions. And I think that that is incredibly powerful. It is, yeah, it is, like I said,
[32:52] SPEAKER_01: it is sort of the supreme tool for all of our interactions, which is our combined knowledge,
[33:00] SPEAKER_01: right, which is our combined output. So we need to make sure that we are using the best money if
[33:06] SPEAKER_00: we're going to have the best outcomes. Yeah, absolutely. Before we wrap this up, I always like to give
[33:11] SPEAKER_00: the guest a chance to repeat anything or emphasize something they want to emphasize or add anything
[33:18] SPEAKER_00: that maybe we didn't get to that they're like, it's really important that your listeners know this.
[33:24] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I could certainly start ranting for hours when it comes to Bitcoin.
[33:28] SPEAKER_01: I'll just say that bear in mind that only you can take care of yourself, only you are responsible
[33:38] SPEAKER_01: truly at the end of the day. If you are concerned about your savings and your earnings,
[33:46] SPEAKER_01: it's up to you to help yourself. You know, we in the Bitcoin community are out here trying to
[33:52] SPEAKER_01: create resources and spread knowledge and awareness because we think it's like so very important.
[34:00] SPEAKER_01: And you know, we're here. We all, you know, we'll do everything we can. I'm not here to say,
[34:05] SPEAKER_01: you know, go out and buy Bitcoin. It's going to make you rich. Like that is not what this is about.
[34:09] SPEAKER_01: It's about making the world a better place. It's very hard to wrap your head around why that is
[34:15] SPEAKER_01: the case, but that is truly the goal. And I've done my best to explain that argument in the most
[34:22] SPEAKER_01: approachable, friendly, fun, insightful, meaningful, impactful way that I possibly can in the book.
[34:30] SPEAKER_01: So if you're at all curious about Bitcoin, I've covered a wide variety of topics in the book.
[34:37] SPEAKER_01: And I think even if, again, you don't have to finish it and be like, oh, I need to go buy Bitcoin,
[34:42] SPEAKER_01: but you can at least be informed about what it is, why it's here, and why so many people are
[34:48] SPEAKER_00: getting more and more passionate about it. You know, we can't underemphasize the importance of
[34:52] SPEAKER_00: information and education on things like this, especially from an unbiased source. You might,
[34:56] SPEAKER_00: you might be a fan of Bitcoin, but it's not like you're, you know, getting paid to promote Bitcoin
[35:01] SPEAKER_00: in some way. And that's a really important thing, right? Is a lot of times we take our advice from
[35:05] SPEAKER_00: financial advisors who are paid by a bank to give us specific advice. And this is a really
[35:11] SPEAKER_01: good way of getting information that's unbiased. So it's fun to say that. I was having a conversation
[35:16] SPEAKER_01: yesterday where we were chatting about how, if this was with another Bitcoin or how Bitcoin just
[35:21] SPEAKER_01: it compels people to contribute, right? Like selling a book, I am not going to get rich selling a
[35:27] SPEAKER_01: book. That's just not going to happen. I was keenly aware of that going into this. But I knew
[35:33] SPEAKER_01: that I had to contribute because I know that the output, the product that I would put out would
[35:39] SPEAKER_01: help someone. And if it helps that someone, then I've done something good for the world. And that,
[35:46] SPEAKER_01: that matters. And, you know, saying that Bitcoin is good for the world to the average listener.
[35:49] SPEAKER_01: If they hear me say that, who is this crackbot talking? I promise you, there is a very strong
[35:55] SPEAKER_01: argument for that. I will happily point you to a million and one resources. If you'd like to
[36:00] SPEAKER_01: explore those aside from my book, although I certainly encourage you to go buy the book or check out
[36:04] SPEAKER_01: the book. But there are lots of great free resources available. And I'm happy to point listeners in
[36:09] SPEAKER_00: the direction of any of them if they want. Yeah. And I appreciate that. And I do want to note that
[36:14] SPEAKER_00: people can check your book out online. It's magic bitcoin book dot com, which is a great URL.
[36:21] SPEAKER_00: And there will be links to Jesse's Twitter and LinkedIn, his media. You can connect with him. And
[36:26] SPEAKER_00: and I'm sure he has tons of those free resources listed in all the different places that you can find
[36:31] SPEAKER_00: him. And connect with him offline because I think this is a really interesting start to a conversation.
[36:38] SPEAKER_01: Yeah. I'll tell you know what, I don't have like a resources page on my website or anything. However,
[36:44] SPEAKER_01: again, there are a lot of great resources that I can point you to five different websites. If
[36:48] SPEAKER_01: if you're out there and you want to start exploring, just send me an email, my emails on the website
[36:53] SPEAKER_01: or on Twitter, you name it, whatever it means. You want to contact me by. I hope you get hundreds of
[36:58] SPEAKER_01: emails from me too. It's fun. It's fun helping people open their minds to this stuff. It's very
[37:05] SPEAKER_00: fulfilling. I appreciate your enthusiasm about it and your willingness to answer my very basic
[37:10] SPEAKER_00: questions because I know you talked a lot of Bitcoin people. So it's super valuable for our listeners
[37:14] SPEAKER_00: on behalf of them and on behalf of Canis Podcast. Thank you for joining me today and for
[37:19] SPEAKER_00: having this conversation. I think it is timely and valuable. Thank you so much for having me. This
[37:25] SPEAKER_01: was great.
