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TRANSCRIPTION WITH SPEAKERS
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[00:00] SPEAKER_00: It's Toronto's podcast on the Canada's podcast network.
[00:05] SPEAKER_00: Hi everyone, I'm Andrea Sesson, your Toronto's host for Canada's podcast stations number
[00:11] SPEAKER_00: one edge criminal network.
[00:13] SPEAKER_00: Today I have a great pleasure to be joined by Jen Harper and she is the CEO and founder
[00:20] SPEAKER_00: of Cheap on Beauty Cosmetics Inc.
[00:23] SPEAKER_00: Jen, welcome.
[00:25] SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me.
[00:26] SPEAKER_00: I'm really excited.
[00:28] SPEAKER_00: We're excited as well.
[00:30] SPEAKER_00: So why don't we start off by you telling us a little bit about who you are and a little
[00:36] SPEAKER_00: bit about what your business is?
[00:38] SPEAKER_01: Sure.
[00:39] SPEAKER_01: So I'm Jen Harper, as you mentioned, the founder and the CEO, which sometimes me feels
[00:44] SPEAKER_01: laughable because it's such an official title, but you're really just doing, like I call
[00:51] SPEAKER_01: it the Chiefs, everything officer, like you're doing everything.
[00:53] SPEAKER_01: So it's not very glamorous or as glamorous as that sound.
[00:58] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I started the company, I'm registered it and I think did all the official business
[01:04] SPEAKER_01: stuff back in 2016, but it was prior to that.
[01:09] SPEAKER_01: It was January of 2015 when I literally had a dream.
[01:14] SPEAKER_01: Like it's not like not a joke.
[01:16] SPEAKER_01: It was real like pop up out of your bed in the middle of the night and the dream was
[01:20] SPEAKER_01: pretty incredible.
[01:21] SPEAKER_01: And I call it the most incredible life changing dream now because I had no, I guess aspirations
[01:27] SPEAKER_01: or path to being entrepreneur, build my own business.
[01:31] SPEAKER_01: But then when you look back, I guess over my life, I see how I ended up here and that
[01:38] SPEAKER_01: it probably was always the role I was supposed to fill, but I call myself a slow learner
[01:44] SPEAKER_01: for one.
[01:44] SPEAKER_01: So I didn't figure that out sooner and I also have been called an accidental entrepreneur
[01:51] SPEAKER_01: by another journalist and I really like that because it fits.
[01:54] SPEAKER_01: So after that dream, I started just doing whatever entrepreneur does and it's like that deep
[02:00] SPEAKER_01: dive into like research and product development and you're just like, you feel like, I don't
[02:06] SPEAKER_01: know, like this sloof in Google every day, every night, like you go to your day job and
[02:11] SPEAKER_01: then your nights and weekends are filled with figuring things out, which I think is just
[02:16] SPEAKER_01: the most incredible part about entrepreneurship and what I speak to a lot of indigenous
[02:21] SPEAKER_01: kids about because some of us weren't academics and I can raise my hand that I never did very
[02:26] SPEAKER_01: well in school and I didn't feel like school or higher education.
[02:32] SPEAKER_01: I just, I felt at a place and it wasn't the right place for me and discovering with entrepreneurship
[02:37] SPEAKER_01: that you really, it is a deep form of education, but totally not based on the secular version
[02:43] SPEAKER_01: of education.
[02:44] SPEAKER_01: So it's literally creating your own path and that deep dive into all the stuff that
[02:50] SPEAKER_01: you're trying to figure out is, you know, that analogy we've heard several times when
[02:55] SPEAKER_01: entrepreneur is like jumping out of the plane and building the parachute on the way down
[02:59] SPEAKER_01: or I just started to describe this way, which I thought was hilarious.
[03:04] SPEAKER_01: That you're like hanging on a cliff and you're like hanging onto like the rocks as tight
[03:09] SPEAKER_01: as you can and, you know, you don't even know if it's fun what you're doing, right?
[03:15] SPEAKER_01: You're like, and you know it's overtaken the time to ask that, but you're just like knowing
[03:19] SPEAKER_01: that you have to get to the top.
[03:21] SPEAKER_01: So you know, scary, maybe I'm an adrenaline junkie, I don't know, I don't even think I
[03:27] SPEAKER_01: would like the idea of jumping out of the plane, so I don't think that's true, but entrepreneurship
[03:31] SPEAKER_01: does feel like that.
[03:32] SPEAKER_01: Because you, and it's kind of crazy because you have this vision in your mind of everything
[03:38] SPEAKER_01: that you're doing and working on and what you want to build.
[03:41] SPEAKER_01: No one else can see it.
[03:42] SPEAKER_01: So I know early on when you're, I was telling people, yeah, I'm creating this cosmetics
[03:46] SPEAKER_01: brand and it's this line and we're going to empower indigenous kids and creating this
[03:51] SPEAKER_01: level of representation for them in the beauty space and, and then everything I wanted
[03:54] SPEAKER_01: to do with sustainability and they look at you like your mad, like you're crazy, right?
[03:59] SPEAKER_01: Because I see it all up here or it's on my vision board and charts and graphs and stuff
[04:04] SPEAKER_01: that I've made at home, but nobody else sees that and they just hear you speaking these
[04:09] SPEAKER_01: words.
[04:10] SPEAKER_01: And so it did take me a long time to start talking to people about it, but it's really
[04:15] SPEAKER_01: a beautiful thing when you do share it with somebody and they feel it, right?
[04:20] SPEAKER_01: Like they're get what you're trying to do.
[04:22] SPEAKER_01: So I had a really couple good friends and business colleagues early on that obviously I continued
[04:28] SPEAKER_01: just around myself with because if you maybe aren't worth the right people, they're going
[04:33] SPEAKER_01: to tell you you're crazy.
[04:34] SPEAKER_01: I know I had those looks like you're crazy and people may want to tell you to quit and
[04:38] SPEAKER_01: maybe close family members would, but fortunately I didn't have anyone telling me to quit
[04:42] SPEAKER_01: early on so I was able to keep going and I pretty much don't listen to anybody ever anyway.
[04:47] SPEAKER_01: So I would have kept going, but it's, yeah, it's an incredible journey.
[04:53] SPEAKER_01: It's exciting.
[04:54] SPEAKER_01: It's fun.
[04:54] SPEAKER_01: And you know, for me and what we were doing at Chief Bobe Beauty, it was so personal.
[05:00] SPEAKER_01: Like I share this part of my story that I was battling an alcoholism for many, many years.
[05:05] SPEAKER_01: I got sober in 2014 and had this dream in 2015.
[05:10] SPEAKER_01: Like it, I don't know, it blows.
[05:11] SPEAKER_01: I think it's banana sometimes when I think about how everything worked out and sharing that
[05:15] SPEAKER_01: part of it with people in my community that the reason it took me so long to get well
[05:20] SPEAKER_01: because I was 38 when I actually got well, was that stereotype that indigenous people,
[05:26] SPEAKER_01: all are alcoholics, right?
[05:29] SPEAKER_01: And I didn't want to be one.
[05:30] SPEAKER_01: So for me, not admitting that and I guess living in that space of shame kept me sick for
[05:36] SPEAKER_01: a long time.
[05:37] SPEAKER_01: So now I literally call myself like the proudest, loudest alcoholic there is because I will,
[05:42] SPEAKER_01: like I'm proud, recovered alcoholic, but there should be no shame in that.
[05:47] SPEAKER_01: Like that is a struggle.
[05:48] SPEAKER_01: I've overcome it.
[05:49] SPEAKER_01: And even if you're still struggling, you should not be ashamed of it.
[05:52] SPEAKER_01: There's reasons why.
[05:53] SPEAKER_01: And the deeper, you know, you study things like addiction, you understand it's our brain,
[05:57] SPEAKER_01: our brains.
[05:58] SPEAKER_01: We created those pathways as children and you know, it's about rearranging those pathways
[06:02] SPEAKER_01: and building new pathways, but not being ashamed of things is really an important message
[06:08] SPEAKER_01: that I love to share as well.
[06:10] SPEAKER_00: What a beautiful message and what a beautiful story.
[06:14] SPEAKER_00: You know, and thank you for sharing all of that.
[06:16] SPEAKER_00: That's something that you don't read in magazines and newspapers and really getting to know
[06:25] SPEAKER_00: the entrepreneurial story behind the business in you as a person is very important and important
[06:32] SPEAKER_00: for the customers as well.
[06:34] SPEAKER_00: Now that I mentioned magazines, do you tell us a little bit about Shaddling magazine?
[06:39] SPEAKER_00: I think you were featured in it.
[06:41] SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I'd love to hear the story behind that as well.
[06:45] SPEAKER_01: Again, another, I think, laughable moment because, you know, the woman of the year, it sounds
[06:50] SPEAKER_01: so crazy.
[06:51] SPEAKER_01: And I remember they reached out and I did an interview and you know, sort of things like
[06:56] SPEAKER_01: that have happened over the years, but you never know if anything is real or going to
[07:01] SPEAKER_01: come true.
[07:01] SPEAKER_01: So I really don't share anything with anybody ever unless I actually then see it as public
[07:06] SPEAKER_01: because I was, we were always worried like, what if that wasn't true?
[07:10] SPEAKER_01: What if that was like, I don't know, but anyway.
[07:12] SPEAKER_01: So they called, we did the interview and then when the article came out, I remember it
[07:16] SPEAKER_01: was at a small business in my community called, it's called Ruby Red Beautiful, but she's
[07:23] SPEAKER_01: a makeup little shop, but based on cruelty-free products and she's a makeup artist, but we were
[07:28] SPEAKER_01: all there working on her, we were there for her grand opening actually.
[07:33] SPEAKER_01: It was that day.
[07:34] SPEAKER_01: And someone had sent me a direct message on Instagram saying, oh my goodness, I'm reading
[07:38] SPEAKER_01: Shadow Lane and he's Jen Harper's one and so that was it was a nice surprise and there's
[07:43] SPEAKER_01: a little magazine shop next to her store.
[07:45] SPEAKER_01: So I ran and grabbed a copy and I'm just like, this is crazy just because it's, you know,
[07:51] SPEAKER_01: it's, those accolades, you don't start out ever to get them as an entrepreneur, but it
[07:57] SPEAKER_01: really, when you get one, it does feel really good.
[08:00] SPEAKER_01: And the reason why is we do so much work alone, like look at we're both in our homes,
[08:04] SPEAKER_01: all by ourselves, doing all of our work and who is paying attention.
[08:09] SPEAKER_01: Most of the time I think nobody, right?
[08:11] SPEAKER_01: So when someone does, it's like a little bit of validation does fuel you to keep going
[08:16] SPEAKER_01: and motivate you to stay on your path.
[08:20] SPEAKER_00: That's true.
[08:21] SPEAKER_00: And I can speak for myself as well, you know, we do a lot of work behind the scenes and
[08:27] SPEAKER_00: often you don't see the results necessary necessarily.
[08:32] SPEAKER_00: And when you get that recognition, either from a customer or a magazine, it really means
[08:39] SPEAKER_00: a lot.
[08:39] SPEAKER_00: It means you're on the right path, at least for me.
[08:41] SPEAKER_00: And it means that I'm doing something right.
[08:43] SPEAKER_00: Yes, exactly.
[08:45] SPEAKER_00: So do you share a little bit about, I know you were in dragis then as well.
[08:49] SPEAKER_00: You've been very busy.
[08:51] SPEAKER_00: So how was that experience for you that you were in season in 2019?
[08:57] SPEAKER_00: So how was that for you?
[08:59] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, another really exciting experience.
[09:02] SPEAKER_01: I was very open of the fact that I tried out three times.
[09:07] SPEAKER_01: So you know when they do their tour across the Canada and they're actually interviewing
[09:12] SPEAKER_01: and I guess looking for candidates to be on the show.
[09:15] SPEAKER_01: So that was my third visit finally when I got invited to come in and tape on Dragon's
[09:21] SPEAKER_01: Den.
[09:21] SPEAKER_01: So that was really exciting because, but it's also again, as a businesswoman now in an
[09:27] SPEAKER_01: entrepreneur.
[09:28] SPEAKER_01: The first and second time I was clearly not ready and didn't I think even fully understand
[09:34] SPEAKER_01: all the layers of my business and what it was about.
[09:37] SPEAKER_01: And so I love sharing that with people as well that like it's so important to understand.
[09:43] SPEAKER_01: You know, from that brilliant, amazing dream I had, it took three years to actually make
[09:50] SPEAKER_01: sense of it all, you know, and and cover all the bases like whether it be your financial
[09:55] SPEAKER_01: plan, your marketing plan.
[09:56] SPEAKER_01: Your supply chain, all of those things, it took so long for it to weave together properly.
[10:04] SPEAKER_01: And I think that's so important for every entrepreneur to understand.
[10:08] SPEAKER_01: Sometimes like right away I'm like, you know, you said, I said, I see it in your brain,
[10:14] SPEAKER_01: but now you have to be able to one get it down in the business plan.
[10:17] SPEAKER_01: And then, and even more importantly, articulate that to, you know, a perspective investor or
[10:23] SPEAKER_01: someone that you want listening to you, right?
[10:26] SPEAKER_01: And very few words is important.
[10:29] SPEAKER_01: So that gave me again, another jolt of validation when you, when I got to be on the show.
[10:38] SPEAKER_01: And when the producers were done taping that day, they were incredible.
[10:41] SPEAKER_01: They just, they said that you could clearly understand that I knew the path of the
[10:47] SPEAKER_01: business in the direction and everything that I wanted to do with it.
[10:50] SPEAKER_01: And the dragons is scary as it was.
[10:53] SPEAKER_01: I always say it pushed me really out of my comfort zone.
[10:56] SPEAKER_01: Now that I speak publicly way more often, I'm a lot more comfortable, but that, that is not
[11:01] SPEAKER_01: Jen Harper, who she was originally.
[11:04] SPEAKER_01: I've always found that a struggle to publicly stand in front of people and speak.
[11:09] SPEAKER_01: And one on one conversation, sure, I'm, it's okay.
[11:12] SPEAKER_01: But the more people that came around as I always found it harder to speak up.
[11:15] SPEAKER_01: So just having a platform to speak and then using those courage muscles that I didn't
[11:22] SPEAKER_01: exercise enough.
[11:23] SPEAKER_01: So walking on, they taped it like it is a live show.
[11:27] SPEAKER_01: So you're not allowed like you're coming down those steps like they show on, on the program.
[11:32] SPEAKER_01: And it's your first time seeing the judges.
[11:34] SPEAKER_01: So that was really like, holy butter flies.
[11:37] SPEAKER_01: It was really scary.
[11:39] SPEAKER_01: But then once you started talking and I felt more comfortable.
[11:42] SPEAKER_01: And my kids make fun of me all the time because they were like, mom, you're on TV for seven
[11:46] SPEAKER_01: minutes and you were crying for six of them.
[11:49] SPEAKER_01: And I was like, no, I really wasn't because of the tape for like an hour.
[11:54] SPEAKER_01: They edited it down.
[11:54] SPEAKER_01: So it looked like I was crying for the whole time.
[11:57] SPEAKER_01: But I've never been afraid now, you know, losing my brother to suicide while building this
[12:04] SPEAKER_01: overcoming alcoholism.
[12:06] SPEAKER_01: I'm never afraid to cry.
[12:07] SPEAKER_01: And I don't think anyone should be if we are something connects to our heart, if we're
[12:12] SPEAKER_01: emotional, but something we should have no shame again about shedding a couple of tears.
[12:18] SPEAKER_00: What a beautiful, a different oral story, such an inspiration.
[12:22] SPEAKER_00: And I'm really happy that, you know, we got a chance to do the center view.
[12:27] SPEAKER_00: Would you recommend to the entrepreneurs thinking of, you know, being on Dragonstan as something
[12:33] SPEAKER_00: that, you know, they should do sort of push that boundary to get comfortable.
[12:37] SPEAKER_00: Was it a good experience for you and your business?
[12:42] SPEAKER_00: I would highly recommend it.
[12:44] SPEAKER_01: And just for that very reason that you're going to exercise that courage muscle and it gives
[12:50] SPEAKER_01: you an opportunity in so many ways that you might not get otherwise.
[12:56] SPEAKER_01: So it is an excellent experience and I highly recommend it.
[12:59] SPEAKER_01: I mean, going in with it, I always say don't go into anything with expectations, but just
[13:04] SPEAKER_01: appreciate every moment, right?
[13:06] SPEAKER_01: Because I think sometimes we go into stuff with like, they're going to invest and it's
[13:10] SPEAKER_01: going to change the trajectory of my entire company and business plan.
[13:14] SPEAKER_01: It's not realistic to think that way.
[13:16] SPEAKER_01: So if you go in it with the intention of, this is just going to flex some muscles I haven't
[13:22] SPEAKER_01: worked out before, then that's a good path to choose.
[13:26] Speaker UNKNOWN: And you as an entrepreneur, do you think that you're going to be a good entrepreneur?
[13:29] SPEAKER_00: Do you think that you do your best ideas come in the morning or at night?
[13:38] SPEAKER_01: So I was in sales for, I'm not making us like a long time and I did a lot of driving
[13:46] SPEAKER_01: throughout southern Ontario.
[13:48] SPEAKER_01: So I used to do my best thinking while driving in my car.
[13:54] SPEAKER_01: And you know, do you would see, remember when we used to listen to CDs?
[13:57] SPEAKER_01: Like, I would have those and then I would, you could see stuff I'd been writing.
[14:02] SPEAKER_01: I was cleaning out a car on the last time I sold my last car and it had stuff and the
[14:07] SPEAKER_01: ideas that I had while driving written there on just those old CD covers or the inside
[14:12] SPEAKER_01: or wherever I could find something to write while driving it was there.
[14:15] SPEAKER_01: But yeah, so definitely driving, which really is unfortunate because I don't drive as much
[14:20] SPEAKER_01: or even very little right now, especially because of COVID.
[14:25] SPEAKER_01: But sometimes I take the time just to go for a drive and think about stuff.
[14:30] SPEAKER_01: And I tried to change in terms of like getting your creative juices to pump.
[14:36] SPEAKER_01: So like going for walks, more just things like that where it's time that you can are alone
[14:40] SPEAKER_01: where you can think.
[14:41] SPEAKER_00: And is that something that you do to disconnect?
[14:44] SPEAKER_00: All the time.
[14:45] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
[14:46] SPEAKER_01: So I've always been, I live across the street from in the Niagara region.
[14:49] SPEAKER_01: It's called the Short Hills.
[14:51] SPEAKER_01: So it's a very beautiful nature.
[14:55] SPEAKER_01: Like what is it called?
[14:56] SPEAKER_01: It's like a, it's a tree area.
[14:59] SPEAKER_01: There's a river.
[15:00] SPEAKER_01: So it is very beautiful and it's just nature all around you.
[15:03] SPEAKER_01: So I love going into those kinds of settings to feel, I don't know, as I feel a connection
[15:08] SPEAKER_01: to the creator there for one.
[15:10] SPEAKER_01: And then I heard someone's, I read like a quote the other day that said, always looked
[15:16] SPEAKER_01: to nature for the idea because it's there.
[15:19] SPEAKER_01: So I legitimately, I love watching birds sometimes.
[15:22] SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, look at them.
[15:23] SPEAKER_01: They never worry or struggle for anything.
[15:26] SPEAKER_01: Like they know their foods there.
[15:27] SPEAKER_01: They're just content.
[15:28] SPEAKER_01: So I don't know, I love looking deeply at even insects sometimes and watching them work
[15:33] SPEAKER_01: and their little mission in life is beautiful to see.
[15:37] SPEAKER_00: In terms of your business, let's talk about the future.
[15:41] SPEAKER_00: And let's talk about it because we're doing this interview in the midst of COVID-19,
[15:45] SPEAKER_00: global, you know, pandemic.
[15:48] SPEAKER_00: And I want to ask you, where do you see your, how's this affecting your business?
[15:52] SPEAKER_00: First of all, and where do you see your business in the next, you know, three to five years?
[15:56] SPEAKER_00: After all, this is then an overwork.
[15:58] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[15:59] SPEAKER_01: If I, well, that's the hard part right now, right?
[16:02] SPEAKER_01: Because we have no idea.
[16:03] SPEAKER_01: And like, you can talk to the economist that scares the crap out of you.
[16:08] SPEAKER_01: And then you can talk to the economist who's a little bit more of an optimist.
[16:11] SPEAKER_01: And then there's the, the neutral economist.
[16:13] SPEAKER_01: So I've talked to all three recently, trying to, and just to get that balanced view of it
[16:19] SPEAKER_01: and really understanding, we're just human beings.
[16:22] SPEAKER_01: And we really don't have all the answers.
[16:25] SPEAKER_01: And we don't know, but just maybe going into this with the best of intentions,
[16:30] SPEAKER_01: like we've always operated a chief moment was always my goal just to do everything
[16:34] SPEAKER_01: with the best intentions.
[16:36] SPEAKER_01: It might not be right at that moment.
[16:38] SPEAKER_01: But if it isn't, we'll change and we'll figure that out as we're going.
[16:42] SPEAKER_01: But if we do everything with those good intentions, I think good things happen no matter what.
[16:47] SPEAKER_01: So it's been a struggle.
[16:48] SPEAKER_01: We had a big splashy launch plan for our new sustainable lipstick line.
[16:53] SPEAKER_01: And we like pulled everything back and went really low scale and just like popped the products
[16:59] SPEAKER_01: up and like started selling them quietly without blasting as much of a media campaign as we
[17:06] SPEAKER_01: wanted to do.
[17:07] SPEAKER_01: And the public launch obviously was canceled at one event that would have been enthroned
[17:11] SPEAKER_01: at the end of March.
[17:12] SPEAKER_01: So it was just changing everything in a way of planning.
[17:16] SPEAKER_01: And we work with a great agency that does a lot of our marketing for us.
[17:21] SPEAKER_01: And they worked on it so quickly to change everything that our video, our reference,
[17:26] SPEAKER_01: photographer teams, just like everyone just jumped on board, which was to me that was
[17:31] SPEAKER_01: pretty powerful itself.
[17:32] SPEAKER_01: Because everyone just, we didn't know what to do except obviously our message.
[17:36] SPEAKER_01: I didn't want it to be in your face.
[17:37] SPEAKER_01: And we were really like the campaign we had planned was really like in your face.
[17:42] SPEAKER_01: So we pulled back from that.
[17:44] SPEAKER_01: Just because I was really proud of this new line that, you know, I have no background
[17:49] SPEAKER_01: in the beauty industry.
[17:51] SPEAKER_01: And we just made a lipstick like from scratch using everything sustainable.
[17:56] SPEAKER_01: Like every ingredient was so thoughtfully sourced and picked that there would be not one
[18:03] SPEAKER_01: thing in that lipstick itself that would impact the environment.
[18:06] SPEAKER_01: So if it got so to the thought of when you wash your face at night, when that lipstick
[18:11] SPEAKER_01: is going down the drain, it will not impact the waterways.
[18:14] SPEAKER_01: And there was no ingredient in there.
[18:16] SPEAKER_01: And even in our packaging is made from biodegradable and compostable paper and the dyes are vegetable.
[18:23] SPEAKER_01: So that will compost.
[18:25] SPEAKER_01: We're doing testing at the moment.
[18:26] SPEAKER_01: We don't have members yet of how long that takes.
[18:29] SPEAKER_01: But it was just we did so much work for that.
[18:31] SPEAKER_01: And I did it all not by myself, but I'm just really proud of like I don't brag a lot.
[18:39] SPEAKER_01: But I'm really proud of that because it's what we wanted to do from the beginning.
[18:44] SPEAKER_01: I just didn't have the money.
[18:45] SPEAKER_01: So we had to use other third party manufacturers where we couldn't control maybe all the
[18:51] SPEAKER_01: ingredients, but now we can.
[18:53] SPEAKER_01: And I'm just so excited for people to use the product and try it and show the beauty
[18:59] SPEAKER_01: industry specifically that we can do our part to eliminate, I think, a lot of virgin
[19:06] SPEAKER_01: plastics.
[19:07] SPEAKER_01: Just get really creative and thinking about how we make things and what they're housed
[19:11] SPEAKER_01: in.
[19:12] SPEAKER_01: And even how we can come up with making better packaging.
[19:15] SPEAKER_01: That is more of you refill refillable or reusable.
[19:18] SPEAKER_01: And it's a message to the industry essentially that if one woman who has no experience in
[19:23] SPEAKER_01: your space can make something like this smart enough because you guys can do better.
[19:27] SPEAKER_00: I love it.
[19:28] SPEAKER_00: You're such a trailblazer.
[19:30] SPEAKER_00: Is it you the you're the first one that is doing something like this in Canada, in the
[19:36] SPEAKER_00: beauty industry?
[19:37] SPEAKER_01: So there's other sustainable brands, but the different I've never seen anyone make the
[19:43] SPEAKER_01: tube like we have where it's paper and not coated.
[19:47] SPEAKER_01: You will see these, but they're coated in plastic, which makes it absolutely pointless in
[19:53] SPEAKER_01: terms of biodegradable and compostable.
[19:56] SPEAKER_01: Right.
[19:56] SPEAKER_01: So it's about understanding the layers, even the sticker that we put on to seal it.
[20:02] SPEAKER_01: We made it so that it doesn't stick.
[20:05] SPEAKER_01: So we've seen these in the industry, but again, it has the plastic coating.
[20:09] SPEAKER_01: So this one, there is no plastic coating.
[20:12] SPEAKER_01: It can be biodegraded in the earth and be composted.
[20:16] SPEAKER_01: I love the packaging.
[20:17] SPEAKER_01: So and it's just I said as well, like that I will never think that I know everything
[20:23] SPEAKER_01: or understanding anything like this is a big huge learning curve and learning journey
[20:27] SPEAKER_01: for me about sustainability, but I felt really, I guess, compelled to be the brand to bring
[20:35] SPEAKER_01: this forward.
[20:36] SPEAKER_01: As indigenous people, we are the founders of sustainability.
[20:40] SPEAKER_01: You know, there's many people in our communities from across North America, or which we call
[20:45] SPEAKER_01: Turtle Island, they use the teaching of how well we're doing today, impact the next
[20:51] SPEAKER_01: generations.
[20:52] SPEAKER_01: So what if we all thought that way, like what a crazy concept, right?
[20:57] SPEAKER_01: And so that means like whenever we're talking about innovation or products or we're at the
[21:03] SPEAKER_01: check out, we can think about things like that because we're all going to have kids and
[21:07] SPEAKER_01: grandchildren.
[21:08] SPEAKER_01: And even if we're not, we know people that do and how do we want to be responsible for
[21:14] SPEAKER_01: impacting the earth negatively or positively.
[21:16] SPEAKER_01: Right?
[21:17] SPEAKER_01: So just thinking about all those things, even the weight of the product is half the weight
[21:23] SPEAKER_01: of a regular lipstick that's made with plastic.
[21:26] SPEAKER_01: So when you think of things like you're shipping, like it's about trying to become a carbon
[21:31] SPEAKER_01: neutral business, which has so many layers as well.
[21:34] SPEAKER_01: So again, figuring that all out.
[21:36] SPEAKER_01: But how do we take those steps to to leave this as little of an impact as possible on the
[21:41] SPEAKER_01: planet?
[21:43] SPEAKER_00: We're doing such a great job.
[21:44] SPEAKER_00: Amazing.
[21:44] SPEAKER_00: Amazing.
[21:46] SPEAKER_00: What has been the biggest challenge talking about your business, the biggest challenge?
[21:52] SPEAKER_00: And we can address the current situation as well.
[21:57] SPEAKER_00: But one of the biggest challenges in your business that you had to overcome.
[22:02] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[22:03] SPEAKER_01: So I would say like it's really such a competitive industry, specifically you need.
[22:08] SPEAKER_01: Like I know early on people are like, why are you going and going there?
[22:12] SPEAKER_01: So being naive had helped me not, I think quit or give up.
[22:16] SPEAKER_01: Because maybe if I knew what I know now, I might not have chosen the beauty industry
[22:20] SPEAKER_01: because it is so competitive.
[22:22] SPEAKER_01: It's run by mostly major conglomerates that own every brand if we walked into Sephora,
[22:28] SPEAKER_01: like five companies own all of those brands that we see on the shelves.
[22:32] SPEAKER_01: It's pretty crazy when you get that deep understanding.
[22:35] SPEAKER_01: But it also gave me an edge, I think, because people, humans, regular people like you and I,
[22:44] SPEAKER_01: we're looking for different options.
[22:46] SPEAKER_01: We're looking to support people now.
[22:49] SPEAKER_01: Nobody just wants to support a big giant monopoly or a big giant company, right?
[22:54] SPEAKER_01: They want to support people.
[22:55] SPEAKER_01: So I think that really gave us an advantage as much as it is a struggle.
[23:01] SPEAKER_01: And I know it will be going forward, especially during these really challenging times.
[23:06] SPEAKER_01: Like Sephora, you know, selling everything online and went with free shipping.
[23:11] SPEAKER_01: That's hard for a small brand, but we have to hard shipping because it's so expensive, right?
[23:16] SPEAKER_01: We can eliminate shipping.
[23:19] SPEAKER_01: Obviously the higher your order goes, we do that.
[23:22] SPEAKER_01: But for just one item, we can't.
[23:25] SPEAKER_01: It's just, when we sell one item online right now, we do not make any money.
[23:31] SPEAKER_01: Even with the shipping costs.
[23:33] SPEAKER_01: So that's the battle of being a small business.
[23:36] SPEAKER_01: But I always felt like we're coming in this and we're really scrappy and we're going to figure it out.
[23:40] SPEAKER_01: And I just really feel like we had something to prove in terms of, for me, culturally,
[23:46] SPEAKER_01: like I have an enormous weight on my shoulders to make sure every indigenous kid knows.
[23:53] SPEAKER_01: If they want to build a giant big, bad company, like I shouldn't say bad because it's good.
[23:59] SPEAKER_01: They want to build a big giant, good, great company.
[24:02] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they can.
[24:04] SPEAKER_01: And I feel as an indigenous businesswoman, I have that weight to show them that yeah, you can do it.
[24:09] SPEAKER_01: So failure is not an option for me.
[24:12] SPEAKER_01: But we, you know, indigenous people, we're pretty resilient.
[24:16] SPEAKER_01: Like we aren't supposed to be here.
[24:17] SPEAKER_01: Canadian and US government systems since 150 years ago have been trying to eradicate our people and our culture.
[24:26] SPEAKER_01: And it's just not happening.
[24:28] SPEAKER_01: So can you imagine when you, what you can do in business, when you have that kind of DNA running through your veins?
[24:35] SPEAKER_00: There's such a great example for the community as well.
[24:39] SPEAKER_00: So do tell me what is one of the biggest things you wish you knew or most important things you wish you knew
[24:45] SPEAKER_00: before you started or got into this business?
[24:48] SPEAKER_00: I wish I knew.
[24:52] SPEAKER_01: That is so hard because I think everything happens at the right time because you were not ready for certain information early on.
[25:00] SPEAKER_01: So, but if there was one thing I did wish I knew I wish I didn't worry maybe about the financial end of things so much
[25:06] SPEAKER_01: because I think people give up thinking they have no money options.
[25:09] SPEAKER_01: When I'm going to say this and I get beat up all the time but there are lots of money funding source options out there.
[25:16] SPEAKER_01: And it's not that it's easy.
[25:18] SPEAKER_01: You need a kick-ass plan for your business and you need to be able to stand there and articulate it and prove it.
[25:26] SPEAKER_01: Right? So if you have those things, then somebody will listen to you and eventually give you some money.
[25:32] SPEAKER_01: It takes time in patience and that's a lot of people give up so too soon because I think they don't think it.
[25:39] SPEAKER_01: It's just that whole they give up just that little bit to soon not realizing that the money was just around with the corner.
[25:45] Speaker UNKNOWN:
[25:46] SPEAKER_00: And one of the things we see is we often see success stories but we don't see the hardship behind and the resilience and adversity behind the stories of success.
[25:57] SPEAKER_00: How do entrepreneurs get to be successes?
[26:00] SPEAKER_00: And I think it's important for people to realize as well.
[26:05] SPEAKER_00: A lot of doors will close. It's up to you if you will continue to knock on the doors or not.
[26:12] SPEAKER_01: Exactly. And my career being in sales prior to this really helped with that because I mean no never meant no.
[26:22] SPEAKER_01: It was just not right now and it was just building that tenacity to not give up.
[26:27] SPEAKER_01: And literally living in a constant state of rejection because when you're in sales it's very much like entrepreneurship.
[26:33] SPEAKER_01: You get that one great deal and then for like a week, two weeks a month sometimes you're getting nothing right.
[26:40] SPEAKER_01: So it's just about being able to be punched, knocked down but just getting back down.
[26:46] SPEAKER_00: And the rejection didn't mean that your business idea was not good.
[26:50] SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
[26:51] SPEAKER_00: The time he was in right perhaps.
[26:54] SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
[26:55] SPEAKER_00: So what is the best piece of advice to receive as an entrepreneur?
[27:00] SPEAKER_00: Was there that one person that sort of said, you know, Jen, this is what my advice is that it's sort of altered your path?
[27:09] SPEAKER_01: Yeah. So early on I was part of like an indigenous women's business entrepreneurship network thing.
[27:19] SPEAKER_01: It has a really long acronym.
[27:20] SPEAKER_01: I can't remember but I received a mentor and her name was Deborah.
[27:24] SPEAKER_01: And we did this 12-week program and it'd be like for 12 weeks once a week we're checking in on like a two-hour call.
[27:30] SPEAKER_01: And she was amazing.
[27:32] SPEAKER_01: She would bring in some incredible entrepreneurs and we would listen to their stories, you know,
[27:37] SPEAKER_01: whether it be a marketer, a banker, a lawyer, an accountant.
[27:41] SPEAKER_01: And the one piece of advice that she gave me.
[27:44] SPEAKER_01: So this is like, you know, had the dream.
[27:47] SPEAKER_01: This program was the beginning of 2016.
[27:50] SPEAKER_01: So very early on at the business planning, she told me, do your business plan, financial marketing, the whole thing,
[27:56] SPEAKER_01: and go use this advisory board in Toronto.
[28:00] SPEAKER_01: And it was a group of like retired again, entrepreneurs, accountant lawyers.
[28:05] SPEAKER_01: And they sat there totally unbiased because they don't know you.
[28:10] SPEAKER_01: They just have seen your business plan prior to meeting you.
[28:14] SPEAKER_01: You pay $150 bucks for a one hour meeting with them.
[28:17] SPEAKER_01: And I went three times and it was the most incredible thing because it's that unbiased connection
[28:24] SPEAKER_01: that and they could take everything apart and say no, do this, no, do that.
[28:28] SPEAKER_01: And trust me, like they were older because they're retired.
[28:31] SPEAKER_01: So a lot of them didn't understand e-com.
[28:34] SPEAKER_01: But I kept standing up and defending it and knowing back like in 2016, you already saw the power in e-com.
[28:41] SPEAKER_01: What it was going to do.
[28:41] SPEAKER_01: Which didn't make sense to them.
[28:44] SPEAKER_01: And which was still a struggle even to myself at the time as of like 40, how old are they 39.
[28:50] SPEAKER_01: I didn't shop a lot online either.
[28:52] SPEAKER_01: Now never mind going to my makeup online.
[28:54] SPEAKER_01: But I kept reading the data, the studies, the white papers, what this gen, what millennials and what Gen Z was doing.
[29:03] SPEAKER_01: And it was, they're going to do everything online.
[29:06] SPEAKER_01: It's going to blow our minds.
[29:08] SPEAKER_01: And I'm a firm believer in diving into like trend setting research and seeing what the future is coming.
[29:15] SPEAKER_01: And you know, those organizations aren't writing those papers for no reason.
[29:19] SPEAKER_01: They have legitimate reasons.
[29:20] SPEAKER_01: So paying attention to that and just using the advisory board was mostly for the financial end of the business.
[29:27] SPEAKER_01: And so like in the first few meetings, a few of them, they were like, this is crazy.
[29:32] SPEAKER_01: No, what you're doing is nuts.
[29:34] SPEAKER_01: Also, then redirecting me to not, my part of my dream was wanting to do this scholarship fund
[29:40] SPEAKER_01: in my grandmother's name was a residential school survivor right away.
[29:44] SPEAKER_01: And they were like, you know, so one of the best piece of that I, they said go find an organization
[29:48] SPEAKER_01: that you can support with just donations.
[29:51] SPEAKER_01: So that's when we went and found the first nation child of family care in our society.
[29:54] SPEAKER_01: So we donate 10% of our profits to them and have a since day one profitable or not.
[30:00] SPEAKER_01: So close up.
[30:03] SPEAKER_01: I'm really, really proud of that because you know, it was for me about building trust within my own community
[30:09] SPEAKER_01: and showing people that people can do what they say they're going to do at any means necessary, right?
[30:15] SPEAKER_01: And I'm a firm believer in doing what you say you're going to do.
[30:18] SPEAKER_01: So providing those donations is just part of our business.
[30:21] SPEAKER_01: And it's part of me and who I am.
[30:24] SPEAKER_01: So they suggested that, which was great because building a foundation,
[30:28] SPEAKER_01: well, building a business wouldn't, it wouldn't have worked.
[30:30] SPEAKER_01: It's building two businesses at the same time essentially.
[30:33] SPEAKER_01: So that was awesome.
[30:34] SPEAKER_01: And then when they took apart the financial plan and then I could see it in like three of the men
[30:40] SPEAKER_01: who are like in their 60s, I saw in their eyes that they got what I was trying to do was
[30:46] SPEAKER_01: incorporate this indigenous representation in the beauty space.
[30:49] SPEAKER_01: It's never been there being able to do this online where we can ship to anywhere around North America.
[30:55] SPEAKER_01: And they were still grappling with the how do you do the makeup thing, right?
[31:00] SPEAKER_01: But I saw it in their eyes and it again early on gave me a little bit of validation
[31:04] SPEAKER_01: that it is possible.
[31:06] SPEAKER_01: And low end behold to this day it blows my mind,
[31:09] SPEAKER_01: but it's that our customers 24 to 34 year olds women that buy almost everything online
[31:16] SPEAKER_01: including makeup that they've never tried on before.
[31:18] SPEAKER_01: And our return rate is like less than a percent.
[31:21] SPEAKER_01: It's like so.
[31:23] SPEAKER_01: So yeah, like nothing.
[31:24] SPEAKER_01: And we have a policy that once you get your product you have seven days because you'll know
[31:29] SPEAKER_01: and set if the color is not your shade, right?
[31:32] SPEAKER_01: And we've done that from day one that we will return, take it back and send you a different color.
[31:37] SPEAKER_00: That's amazing.
[31:38] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and no cost to the consumer.
[31:40] SPEAKER_01: We send them shipping label.
[31:41] SPEAKER_01: They send us back the color they don't like.
[31:43] SPEAKER_01: And we'll send them a different one.
[31:46] SPEAKER_01: And yeah, and that barely ever gets used.
[31:49] SPEAKER_01: So I'm like, how, because and by my mind, I'm like, I have a hard time buying lipsticks.
[31:52] SPEAKER_01: I do now, obviously, I'll go, you know, I'm always scooping out what's out there and what's new
[31:57] SPEAKER_01: and trying to create the best shopping experience for our customers.
[32:01] SPEAKER_01: So obviously I check out other people shopping experiences online to see how it would stand.
[32:06] SPEAKER_01: But I can't believe it how much makeup people buy online.
[32:11] SPEAKER_01: But there's a lot.
[32:12] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think everything is, you know, going online and especially nowadays.
[32:17] SPEAKER_00: So what place to be on is online.
[32:20] SPEAKER_00: I think companies that are not online and have an implemented online opportunities
[32:29] SPEAKER_00: are having a really hard time and struggling right now to survive the impact of COVID.
[32:36] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it would be really challenging.
[32:40] SPEAKER_01: I say to everyone, because we've got questions, are you guys still operating?
[32:43] SPEAKER_01: I said, we've been operating this way, prepared to be
[32:46] SPEAKER_01: handle a situation like COVID for a long time.
[32:50] SPEAKER_01: The only thing that would happen in our world is if shipping went down, then we're done.
[32:55] SPEAKER_01: But we're ready to ship.
[32:56] SPEAKER_01: We have Canada Post's, our shipping partner and they have done a great job.
[33:02] SPEAKER_01: Like our, you know, our, our Colleen, our person that comes every day is like,
[33:09] SPEAKER_01: outside with her gloves and her mask and wheeling the orders that there should pick something
[33:12] SPEAKER_01: like a can't take a load or any more talk to her.
[33:14] SPEAKER_01: We're just waving through the window, but like they've really done a great job to pick up
[33:19] SPEAKER_01: operationally and fulfill all of these orders that are, that are going out.
[33:23] SPEAKER_01: And, you know, it's great companies that you do work with as an entrepreneur and you pick
[33:27] SPEAKER_01: the partnerships early on. They've been so, so good to us.
[33:32] SPEAKER_00: So business as usual. And now I'm going to ask you a few rapid fire questions.
[33:38] SPEAKER_00: So you don't have to think a lot about the answer.
[33:42] SPEAKER_00: Just whatever it comes to your mind first, just to have some fun.
[33:46] SPEAKER_00: So if you weren't doing what you're doing today, what would you be doing instead?
[33:53] SPEAKER_01: Definitely. It would be, I think, if I mean, if money wasn't an option,
[33:57] SPEAKER_01: I would be doing a lot of volunteer style work for sure.
[34:01] SPEAKER_00: And I hear that from a lot of entrepreneurs, you know, they would sort of be in non, non for profit.
[34:06] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
[34:08] SPEAKER_00: Is there a book that you're currently reading that you could recommend or if not a book,
[34:13] SPEAKER_00: maybe a podcast or whatever you're into these days?
[34:18] SPEAKER_01: From the ashes by Jesse Thistle. So it's a story about a matey young man.
[34:26] SPEAKER_01: He becomes homeless. I'm not that far yet. He's I'm still in his childhood. So anyway,
[34:32] SPEAKER_01: he's an indigenous young man who actually ends up homeless. I believe he was a gergatic.
[34:36] SPEAKER_01: But I'm reading this one, not a writer, but I started writing a book about my life because it's
[34:46] SPEAKER_01: beautiful. Wow. Crazy. But so I feel like I should be reading other people's stories about how they
[34:53] SPEAKER_01: wrote about their lives because without any writing experience, you don't even know how or where
[34:57] SPEAKER_01: to start. And then this was recommended because it's on the National Best Sellers list right now.
[35:02] SPEAKER_01: I think the goal of a male, but it's really good. It is. And we can expect the book from you then.
[35:09] SPEAKER_01: Probably I'm saying like year, year and a half to years. I'm trying to do the whole like when
[35:15] SPEAKER_01: they say a page a day, right? So we'll see how many pages it ends up being. I feel like, okay,
[35:19] SPEAKER_01: let's start like this the end. But I mean, I think I started, I literally started probably
[35:26] SPEAKER_01: like six years ago writing something. But I only got serious like since COVID, right? We have
[35:33] SPEAKER_01: extra time. Not that we really have extra time. I just felt like I would and just being able
[35:40] SPEAKER_01: to block that one hour since we don't have to leave. I'm feeling like that commuting time is
[35:45] SPEAKER_01: lessened. So I'm not traveling, which I was doing a ton of traveling for Cheatbone.
[35:50] SPEAKER_01: Over the last year and a half. So obviously that's gone. So I do have more time to do this.
[35:56] SPEAKER_00: Great. Thanks for sharing that. And are you a morning or a night person?
[36:03] SPEAKER_00: Morning. And if you had to pick one word to describe yourself, what would it be and why?
[36:09] SPEAKER_00: Oh my goodness. It's supposed to be a rapid fire. I wanted to say funny at first, but
[36:15] SPEAKER_01: nobody of my family, they always say I laugh at my own, my own jokes.
[36:20] SPEAKER_00: And what is keeping you up at night these days? I mean, there's so many things, but you know,
[36:27] SPEAKER_01: one thing that sort of, you know, I sleep well. I have slept very well for the last six
[36:34] SPEAKER_01: years of my life, which I'm really grateful for. But I have a teenage son. So he's keeping me up.
[36:41] SPEAKER_01: I'm finding the teenage years very stressful. And I'm trying not to be, but they are, right?
[36:48] SPEAKER_00: I'm getting there as well with that with my daughter in a few more years. So
[36:53] SPEAKER_00: not something that I look forward to. No, no. What is your favorite place in the world? It can be
[37:01] SPEAKER_00: anywhere. It can be your backyard. It can be a conservation area or it can be an actual
[37:07] SPEAKER_01: city town. Yeah, I would not have said this maybe five, 10 years ago, but literally my favorite
[37:15] SPEAKER_01: place to go, which I don't visit often enough is my family's reservation, which is in Sunaro's
[37:22] SPEAKER_01: Ontario, which it's called, we're called Northwest Angle 33A. It's like the government official name
[37:28] SPEAKER_01: for our community, but going there, it's just, you know, it's just such a beautiful part of Ontario.
[37:37] SPEAKER_01: You're like surrounded by the Boreal Forest and Lake of the Woods. So it's just water everywhere,
[37:43] SPEAKER_01: rocks, and I just feel like at home going there, even though that's never been my home,
[37:49] SPEAKER_01: which is a weird feeling, but when I think about it, my ancestors, like my grandmother,
[37:53] SPEAKER_01: my great-grandmother, they all lived on that land for like, like for four, I don't know if I go
[37:59] SPEAKER_01: back to the generations, my family had been on that land for like 400 years or something crazy.
[38:04] SPEAKER_00: So to me, that's powerful. So that's where you're hard to sit peace. Yeah. Yeah.
[38:10] SPEAKER_00: And what are the three non-negotiables that you happen to have in your either morning or an
[38:16] SPEAKER_00: evening routine? Do you have to have a coffee in the morning? Is there, you know, do you meditate?
[38:21] SPEAKER_00: Is there something that you sort of have to do either in the morning or in the evening?
[38:27] SPEAKER_01: So prayer, number one, is the first thing I do every day when I wake up, whether it's gratitude
[38:33] SPEAKER_01: or when we talk about stress. When you have a spiritual connection, you do a lot of
[38:38] SPEAKER_01: communicating that way. So it alleviates someone, when you're giving things to God, so to speak,
[38:45] SPEAKER_01: you can remove some of those stressful things that are happening in our lives. So that for me,
[38:50] SPEAKER_01: that's really, really, really important, is that spiritual connection. And I wake up with that
[38:55] SPEAKER_01: first thing in the morning every single day. And then of course, coffee is on that list.
[38:59] SPEAKER_01: And then movement, even though I love physical fitness and health, I don't always do like my work out.
[39:07] SPEAKER_01: So to speak right away in the morning, but I'll do whether it be like stretching or a little like
[39:13] SPEAKER_01: glass of cardio and I just say everything going and pumping right away. Perfect.
[39:18] SPEAKER_00: Last question is there's a small tropical island in the middle of the ocean with only one
[39:24] SPEAKER_00: foam boot and no internet. We drop you off there with no technology at all. And at any time,
[39:31] SPEAKER_00: you can use the foam boot on the island to call the boat to come and pick you up. How long
[39:35] SPEAKER_00: would you last before making a phone call? And what would you do in the meantime?
[39:40] SPEAKER_01: Oh my goodness. I would just bask in the sun. As bad as I know it is for me, if I'm stuck on that
[39:47] SPEAKER_01: island, I'm going to enjoy the sun and the warm sand and dipping in the water. So I would like
[39:54] SPEAKER_01: literally thinking it might be a good room in the park before I call it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah,
[40:00] SPEAKER_00: no, that would be nice. So where can our listeners and viewers find you online?
[40:08] SPEAKER_01: So it's cheapbonebeauty.com or CA. We can find us at the
[40:14] SPEAKER_00: perfect. So Jen, thank you so very much for taking the time to speak to me today and
[40:21] SPEAKER_00: you know, letting us know what your entrepreneurial journey is. And we wish you all the best
[40:28] SPEAKER_00: in the upcoming couple of years. It's a beautiful story that you share. I appreciate you sharing
[40:38] SPEAKER_00: it for us. I'm Andrea Sesu, Toronto's host for Canada's podcast. Today I had a great pleasure
[40:46] SPEAKER_00: to interview with Jen Harper, founder and CEO of Cheekborne Beauty Cosmetics. Jen, thank you.
[40:52] SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
