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TRANSCRIPTION WITH SPEAKERS
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[00:00] SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Canada's podcast.
[00:06] SPEAKER_01: Hi ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Canada's podcast that's Atlantic Canada
[00:10] SPEAKER_01: Division section chapter part of the world that is really really really special with regards to entrepreneurship.
[00:18] SPEAKER_01: I'm your host River's Corvette and just really excited about hanging out today with James Rockwood.
[00:26] SPEAKER_01: James he's got an interesting above profile on LinkedIn and I was thinking about ways and okay what's the best way to introduce this man to the conversation today because a lot of people go that way.
[00:40] SPEAKER_01: His is let me count it two sentences that's his LinkedIn profile but it absolutely is freaking perfect because it really really connects to the spirit of the Atlantic Canadian entrepreneur.
[00:53] SPEAKER_01: And so let me just read that actually three sentences the words proud east coaster count as a sentence.
[01:01] SPEAKER_01: So James Rockwood he's a proud east coaster.
[01:06] SPEAKER_01: He's big and a fitness cooking self discipline Brazilian jitsu history and stoic system. Is that any pronounced that?
[01:16] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, that's that's it stoicism.
[01:18] SPEAKER_01: And of course why we're here to talk today is about his amazing journey with with cap intel, which is a bentek company.
[01:27] SPEAKER_01: So welcome to Canada's podcast James great to have you here.
[01:33] SPEAKER_02: That's an amazing intro. I really appreciate it. I'm super happy to be here. So thanks for Bruce.
[01:38] SPEAKER_01: Well, like as with any anything around entrepreneurship.
[01:44] SPEAKER_01: Let's talk about Brazilian jitsu because part of the journey of the entrepreneurial life personal balance whatever it is.
[01:54] SPEAKER_01: Obviously this is big enough for you. It hits your profile. Tell me about how well for the folks that don't know what's the jitsu jitsu and also what's Brazilian jitsu.
[02:06] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so so jitsu.
[02:09] SPEAKER_02: Originally I believe in Japan and it's sort of a combination of like grappling and sort of throwing techniques with sort of submissions.
[02:20] SPEAKER_02: It was then picked up by famously the Gracie family in early 1900s in Brazil who created a subsect of it called Brazilian Jitsu or BJJ.
[02:30] SPEAKER_02: And that's you know a non-contact meaning you're not hitting each other.
[02:37] SPEAKER_02: Marshall art designed around grappling. It's not designed around wrestling submissions.
[02:44] SPEAKER_02: And it's great and the reason that I love it. I did talk window for six or seven years growing up, which is really nice, but striking can sometimes lead to more injuries, especially as you know somebody who who
[02:56] SPEAKER_02: needs to be able to sort of be able to show up at work every single day.
[03:01] SPEAKER_02: You want to be really careful what's it what's something I can do for a long time that is going to allow me to you know still enjoy the sort of chess match that is sort of combat but also be able to walk into work the next day and BJJ is amazing because
[03:17] SPEAKER_02: it's kind of like human chess because there's different submissions.
[03:21] SPEAKER_02: You're mostly on the ground grappling with people trying to find ways to you know extend a joint or to choke them.
[03:29] SPEAKER_02: And you can go at 100% as if you were in real combat without actually risking injury very easily because you tap quickly.
[03:37] SPEAKER_02: People don't cry to crank each other. You sort of train to train and it's really fascinating.
[03:42] SPEAKER_02: It's also very I find it's really helpful from mindfulness perspective. You know, as any entrepreneur or anybody who has a lot of things on the go.
[03:52] SPEAKER_02: You want to find ways to clear your mind and there's something about somebody trying to choke you that you know really focuses you on not like what's for dinner or you know what am I stressed out about your test entirely focused on where that person's arm is where their leg is.
[04:10] SPEAKER_02: I can move and so I find it is really really good obviously been more difficult to do it.
[04:15] SPEAKER_02: I'm doing the pandemic but it's an incredible sport. It's very beginner friendly. I'd encourage anybody to try it out.
[04:22] SPEAKER_01: I love it and thanks for letting me take that wing. I know I love to intertwine wellness into entrepreneurship conversations and we kind of just led first with that one today.
[04:33] SPEAKER_01: But I love that you referenced that the value of it besides just exercise but focus is so important.
[04:41] SPEAKER_01: I my kids gave me hot yoga one time for Christmas and that's one thing I loved it was that yeah it was wonderful.
[04:48] SPEAKER_01: It was this focus for an hour and it was so pre-inform me and as an entrepreneur with those various challenges mental and physical wellness in our lives.
[05:02] SPEAKER_01: I think that that is so critically important. So thanks for letting me go down that route but I want to go down one more route on your profile.
[05:11] SPEAKER_01: Then again we're going to get into cap intel but as the listeners know me I never do it the way it's supposed to be done.
[05:16] SPEAKER_01: So this is kind of normal. So history. Now your study and love of history.
[05:22] SPEAKER_01: How what type of history do you like to study and focus in and how do you apply it for your leadership in your business today if you do it all?
[05:35] SPEAKER_02: Yeah so history I've always been really fascinated just generally with history.
[05:40] SPEAKER_02: It's essentially any sort of piece but if I were to focus in on areas that I've focused on spend a lot of time on.
[05:47] SPEAKER_02: Roman Empire is an area is an early passion of mine. Even like grade four and five I was always really interested in it.
[05:54] SPEAKER_02: Covered a lot of sort of conflicts as well. World one and two currently reading a book about the.
[06:00] SPEAKER_02: The right sorry the ISIS invasion of Iraq in 2014. It's not really fascinating and just different ways to sort of see some reasons why potentially the world sort of is the way it is today where certain regions have different levels of prosperity and how there's been a lot of actions that happen you know sometimes thousands of years ago or hundreds of years ago that have lasting impacts to regions of the world.
[06:22] SPEAKER_02: I think generally speaking we're able to apply history the most to what I do today is really around stoicism which is an ancient Greek and ancient Roman philosophy on and philosophy meaning like way to live life for a series of rules or guidelines to live your life by that I found to be incredibly helpful and and eerily relevant to your day today you can read 2000 year old quotes.
[06:52] SPEAKER_02: From you know epic Titus or Marcus Aurelius or some of these people who live that long ago that feel like they reach right into today in in a really kind of powerful way and so so I find it's it's really helpful they have a couple of ideas in stoicism that are I think are really good especially in entrepreneurship one of the biggest ones is you can't.
[07:17] SPEAKER_02: Change how you're going to feel or how you're going to initially react what you can change is how you act based on those feelings.
[07:27] SPEAKER_02: So they tell a story about you know how stoics are always trying to be really measured in their feelings and there's this you know ancient story about there's a stoic on a boat and there's a storm and he looks terrified.
[07:40] SPEAKER_02: And they sort of say hey aren't you guys supposed to be fearless and he's like yeah you don't see me running around right like yeah I'm scared but I'm here I'm calm you know I'm collected and it's really helpful you know I think in a lot of times especially as a leader.
[07:54] SPEAKER_02: Yeah a lot of people entrepreneurs you know it's there's rare and there are ways now but it's rare to be able to be successful on your own entirely you typically have to have a team with you.
[08:04] SPEAKER_02: And you know that team inevitably there will be questions or conflict or or confrontation or people will will say something and if you can pause between what initially comes into your head and how you react you're going to be a much better leader because you're not going to take the easy way out which is to you know I'm angry so I'm going to lash out.
[08:28] SPEAKER_02: You could be hey that upset me you know maybe it's not the best time to think about this or talk about this or maybe I need to be really careful with our spawned or maybe I need to just let that person know hey that upset me as an example you know it's easy when things are going well it's easy for you to look like a good leader and people think you're a good leader it's when mistakes occur which will inevitably occur in any team setting.
[08:53] SPEAKER_02: And how and how you're going to have to interact and react not just to completely work with but potentially competitors you know potentially investors what have you getting a no are you going to send us not email somebody says they don't want to invest in you then you're going to burn that relationship it's going to have a lot more impact the negative activity on you so I just that instances and I find that be really like a great thing to think of is you can't really prevent or you know say I shouldn't feel mad.
[09:20] SPEAKER_02: It's fine if you feel mad that's cool what do you do about it right do you go ahead or do you chill and you do you know interact more thoughtfully.
[09:28] SPEAKER_01: I love it.
[09:29] SPEAKER_01: Right man thanks for letting us take a walk down that rabbit hole I think there's a real lesson here and I've been lucky to interview a ton of people around a planet that's the first time I've had a conversation around stoicism so I think there's some real values in having people really understand that a bit more because you're right we tend to react more often than we did off of the
[09:50] SPEAKER_01: intellect of like a put it that way so ladies and gentlemen I don't know if you can tell but James is got a little bit of a background in
[10:00] SPEAKER_01: the accounting world the finance world he's a CPA he was with KPMG for about two years and we're talking to James he's based out of Halifax what where he is today is a
[10:14] SPEAKER_01: lot of money on the land of Canadian entrepreneur his company cap intel has has locations in Gattano region and also in Toronto we're going to start to dive now into that journey of cap Intel first of all though I you know when I talk to entrepreneurs and hopefully you'll be able to relate to me on this one.
[10:35] SPEAKER_01: I always say to them stay away from accountants at the beginning you still need them but at the beginning their risk adverse their job is not to suggest you become risky their job is
[10:50] SPEAKER_01: to minimize this so you went from two years at KPMG you obviously got the had the finance background what was that point James that you said there's something out there
[11:01] SPEAKER_02: and I need to grasp it as an entrepreneur. Yeah great question I feel like every four years in my career or even in in in schooling I sort of have a bit of a crisis of you know okay what am I doing how can I how can I level up just by the just I don't mean in a rep but you're now into four years eight months with cap Intel
[11:24] SPEAKER_01: so it's just interview going to Sabrina make sure he sticks around at least for a month she's production because we need this to be relevant.
[11:33] SPEAKER_02: Sorry no no no funny at you I did have one I'm here as a way to you know finally though it wasn't like what direction my on it's how do I get better but yeah but every four years you know I've had something where I've really try to call myself out on it and and to say like am I on the right
[11:52] SPEAKER_02: director am I doing what I want to be doing and my head at the right way I want to be headed and I think that's really important because I think in any entrepreneur journey you're not going to start it because you feel amazing and life is really easy at that moment
[12:08] SPEAKER_02: and it's the perfect time I think you're going to the door yeah no sweat I think you're going to start it through a difficult moment or a different conversation with yourself you know you need that to push you to change
[12:22] SPEAKER_02: and so I started in accounting I started on it you know I wasn't really I wasn't a great auditor it wasn't for me it just really was not a right fit and I said okay this is not something I want to do
[12:36] SPEAKER_02: and I went to my boss to KPMG and he was nice enough to refer me into a different division which I had done a co-op in and their investment banking group where we were selling companies owner operating
[12:46] SPEAKER_02: companies and so I was able to transfer from Halifax to Toronto where the investment banking group was based and I spent two and a half years in a role that I liked a lot more
[12:57] SPEAKER_02: and yeah it was really great now I'm grateful for them to have given me that opportunity and I learned a ton and I think I realized you know I've always wanted to run a company like I'm one of those kind of frustrating people who's been I'm like I know what I want to do basically for my entire life I've only
[13:16] SPEAKER_02: ever wanted to run a business I remember being like five wanted to be the CEO of McDonald's because I like big Macs like it's just the one thing I want to do in my life and it's always been that I've always thought about career early I've always been really focused on it I knew it's kind of like the area I want to you know have my ambition and where I want to kind of lay down my mark and it was just like how do I get there
[13:38] SPEAKER_02: still in the count though so I you know going to university I was like I don't really have a good idea to start anything so why don't I just create like a pretty investable resume to say okay but I get a
[13:48] SPEAKER_02: sure see you get the C.A.
[13:50] SPEAKER_02: And you were in the house in university correct?
[13:52] SPEAKER_01: Yeah yeah I went to doubt yeah yeah no it's good both my friends went back to the oh really that's kind of cool yeah so I just keep it cubic to those east coast routes for the guests so that's great so sorry keep going.
[14:06] SPEAKER_02: Yeah no no absolutely so yeah went you know grew up in Halifax you know went to school there went to Dow and then worked for about 18 months in Halifax at KPMG and then transitioned over and so for me that whole journey was like I was new I wanted to get somewhere you know I didn't have any ideas within the the the
[14:30] SPEAKER_02: accounting of the audit sort of program at KPMG for for a business and you know I took that found a job I liked a bit more really enjoyed that try to take some skills but after around two years I thought okay here's the crisis coming or four years in how do we how do I get there like I'm not heading in their direction I want to be I don't have a business you know I don't see myself running KPMG what do I do and so that was really where I started to take the idea of starting a company and I was like I'm going to get a
[14:59] SPEAKER_02: company more seriously and really sort of thinking about what's going to be meaningful for me it's always been really important to me that the company that I'm a part of for the company that I started ran was an impactful business and wealth management is an incredibly impactful business you know a lot of people wealth
[15:18] SPEAKER_02: and so I'm going to be a lot of people who have a lot of relationships for everybody like it's it's I think there's wealth management starts at a small amount of money it doesn't have to just be you know large large components of cash and specific sort of subsets of the population you know going into a bank and buying a mutual fund is wealth management and no matter what level of wealth you have you still have life goals that are based around wealth whether that's you
[15:47] SPEAKER_02: are in the same way as the other one. These are all big goals for people in their life and that's underpinned by wealth and so if I could find a way to be a part of that industry I think it's really important that's something that would allow me to feel like this is a really not just a really interesting and a business but a really impactful business that can assist a lot of people yeah love it. So okay so you were in Toronto you had a seat of an urge to do something you start at a
[16:17] SPEAKER_01: talk to a laying finance numbers and what I love what he said ladies and gentlemen to is impact and I love that I love that piece because when it's it's one of servitude but also it was one of servicing to you and in those darker days when you're starting up particularly in near trying to put all these pieces together that type of burn is so critical and critically important to to maintain so
[16:47] SPEAKER_01: okay James so we're at this point now you're in Toronto and where what was the the start where you say okay you just start part time you or you dive in it looks like you went to next founders that that help you to to percolate the the cap until model.
[17:08] SPEAKER_02: Yeah so I basically started just on weekends at the start and invest making hours are long they're known to be long as you don't have a ton of spare time and so I just thought I need to put in you know six hours every weekend on this pro you know whatever I'm doing whether I'm just writing out of you know some sort of business model whether I'm trying to think about it I just need to put time in and sort of start and I think that's something that you know super important is you have to do it.
[17:38] SPEAKER_02: You have to start you're never going to be perfect to start you're never going to have the right equipment you're never going to be in the right space it you know you just need to kind of kick it off is is the most important thing and as you do that it will gain momentum and you'll continue to do it and continue to build on it so I started very early talking to some people had some friends who were kind of interested in it getting their opinion trying to get out there and then trying to visit people you know if I could take an hour out of the day.
[18:07] SPEAKER_02: I had some good support at KPMG and my boss is there to sort of say okay you know I'm wrapping up here I gave them a lot of notice I said if you don't mind I wouldn't mind taking an hour to hear there if I need to go meet somebody is to talk and so I had a bit more freedom for the next six weeks or so which was great because that was something they provided me and so I've genuinely provided me to be able to go meet people and so that was when I got to get really serious I'd say it was the hardest part though was of the entire journey the in hardest part was at a full time job it was so I was like I'm not going to be able to do it.
[18:37] SPEAKER_02: I was very demanding and I had a part time passion that I was trying to get going and it sucked and I think that that's really important like I wasn't like it didn't feel like work working on cap intel and the precursor to it it definitely felt like work in fact it felt way more painful than regular work because it was a time I was totally exhausted I wanted to be you know sitting on the couch doing nothing and I had to really dig in and dig deep to do that and it took me you know six months of doing this weekend stuff to get to a position where I was going to do it.
[19:07] SPEAKER_02: I was going to do it where I thought okay I can now start to you know see an exit I can see timing from an exit based on the workload I had and I was able to approach my bosses so that was something I think is really important is like a lot of people say if you work on something you love you won't work a day in your life like you 100% will work right so let's talk about that James for a second what was because you're representative of a lot of people going through their part time full time.
[19:38] Speaker UNKNOWN: You know what was going on?
[19:39] SPEAKER_01: What was what's a hacker to that you you were able to grab on to that allowed you to get through that that lucky stage.
[19:47] SPEAKER_02: Yeah so so there's a couple things mostly mindset like that's that's kind of what it comes down to is is putting in the hours and and sort of forcing yourself.
[19:59] SPEAKER_02: There's a there's a book called the War of Art and they have this idea where you know the author it's kind of sharp works worth reading if you're kind of in this position but the author is is essentially a writer and his whole thing is I'm just going to sit down for eight hours in front of my computer and I'm going to write and as long as I'm writing that's what's going to make sure that I'm going to make progress and sometimes it'll be you know three sentences sometimes it'll be 50 pages but I'm just going to write I'm going to write.
[20:27] SPEAKER_02: I'm going to write a book that's going to be a real professional this is what I'm supposed to do you just still like really really had spawn the world's best summary of that book but it's the idea.
[20:34] SPEAKER_02: I know this is what you need to do you got to put the time and essentially any of the things distract you even if it feels productive you got to not let it distract you because it's a distraction so you put those six hours aside.
[20:47] SPEAKER_02: And I think to like that part of not being discouraged you know I walked in thinking it was going to feel you know like totally exciting and totally not tiring at all and it wasn't going to be feel difficult to be working on this passion project because there's supposed to be called passion projects.
[21:07] SPEAKER_02: But it but it was right and I think that was something that was a bit of a surprise.
[21:11] SPEAKER_02: Discouraging at the start but I think now looking back at it it's like it's just it's difficult to start a business it's not easy to work through a lot of these things you're going to have to read a bunch of stuff you're going to have to test things out.
[21:22] SPEAKER_02: You're going to put yourself out there like generally speaking you are going through a very uncomfortable phase to get there and so not to be discouraged by that not to expect it to feel different it will still feel like work.
[21:34] SPEAKER_02: You will find and now that I'm sort of in the position I am now we're able to do this for a long time I've been forward to the opportunity to run the business and starting to now see it take shape in a way that that gets me really excited you know there's still it is areas where it feels like work but overall now I'm much much happier still definitely put in hours for the play do work.
[21:53] SPEAKER_02: But it will sort of switch after a while so I definitely found that part time kind of half in and half out as the hardest piece when you go fully out in your completely involved in entrenched in the business again you're still going to have to work through a lot of things you know no matter what anybody says it's never fun to be totally unfund it or totally underfunded with you know one or two people.
[22:18] SPEAKER_02: Where nobody sees your idea you don't see that you know fully in a software and you're trying to evangelize it and get people to believe in it like it is it is a thing you can look at it back here romantically but it is when you're there I still remember it's it's not super easy.
[22:32] SPEAKER_01: Well the de journey of any good any good relationship let alone life is full of lots of lots of the interesting roller coaster rides and some of them you scream at and some of you smile at so I love that so talk about the value proposition or cap intel that that you started with and where it's at now or maybe it's still the same as it was when you started.
[23:00] SPEAKER_02: Yeah so I think it's it's you know expanded obviously since we first started I kind of had this idea like really early on doing a Travago for mutual funds and ETFs for self directed investors like in 2016 when I was thinking a lot about this there's a whole surge of Robo advice was sort of like entering the wealth management space really actively and so there's a lot of coverage around that and I thought maybe there's an alternative or somebody doesn't want to work on with the Robo advisor and they want to sort of.
[23:29] SPEAKER_02: Do some self directed you know assisted sort of sort of work and as I started studying that especially when I quit my job to start and how to terrible name a call a bizarre investment market but anyway his wishes and yeah.
[23:46] SPEAKER_01: Remember you're in account and creativity typically isn't in your face unless you're the CEO McDonald's.
[23:55] SPEAKER_02: Yeah exactly and so you know there's the accounting creativity there and then you know I remember like getting out and starting that talking going to self directed investor conference I'm talking to some advisors who are there and they sort of said hey you know it's it's.
[24:11] SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of like we want to be able to sort of create and show recommendations to clients to it's more difficult.
[24:18] SPEAKER_02: Then you think right and so when I realize that the pros didn't necessarily have the tools that they were looking for either I thought okay if I improve the system you know going back to that impact thought I'm
[24:29] SPEAKER_02: going to improve the system that serves everybody you know the outcome is going to be much greater than trying to go in sort of on my own.
[24:37] SPEAKER_02: And so started working with financial advisors and really trying to understand how do they speak about investments with clients what's important to retail clients to understand their investments.
[24:46] SPEAKER_02: How do we help them articulate that information really simply and then how do we help solve sort of broader problems for for wealth management firms and further advisor base.
[24:56] SPEAKER_02: And so it's really evolved into you know just learning that space more and more and to now trying to help position it so advisors can provide you know really tailored advice but not just in that way I'll
[25:10] SPEAKER_02: give them the technology to then show their clients you know this is my recommendation here's my rationale behind it in a way that the clients going to really understand which is so key because of how important wealth is to people.
[25:24] SPEAKER_02: You know people talk a lot about different types of markets mass affluent which is like 250,000 to a million investable assets high net worth which is a million and ultra net worth which is 5 million plus and then sort of mass market.
[25:39] SPEAKER_02: But but to people they don't categorize themselves that way because it's still their wealth right and so somebody's going to care if they have you know 50,000 dollars to their name they're going to care the same amount to somebody who has a million dollars to their name.
[25:51] SPEAKER_02: And I think that's been some it's been a really interesting dynamic where as advisors you want to be able to help that person really understand what you're doing with that money while you're making a recommendation and that's going to give them a lot of calm and ease when they can fully understand you can imagine if somebody was trying to explain something really important to you in a bunch of language.
[26:12] SPEAKER_02: You didn't understand that would be hard for you to follow and could create some anxiety for you as a retail client and so being able to make that interaction as simple as it can be so that they really understand what you're recommending is going to both help the advisor deliver advice and help the client really understand it and feel good about the advice they're getting that's really where we've been focused for the last couple of years.
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[26:58] SPEAKER_01: It sounds like such an obvious solution to offer to a very complex industry that's trying to explain something.
[27:11] SPEAKER_01: What was the technology was it just because you saw I mean I what I love about what I love about what you're doing amongst many things is that you said this isn't working and so you took an obvious and you just provided it where people I think entrepreneurs are looking for a deep deep route of problem when it's really right in front of them.
[27:35] SPEAKER_01: What's what what do you think the industry the wealth industry the wealth that buys an industry just really didn't have those tools in the first way just this old school thinking.
[27:46] SPEAKER_02: No I think it's just you know there there it's a very complex tool and a very complex solution that needs to be delivered simply and I think I think that that's the issue is that it's you know there's a lot of different systems that people have relied on in the past I think there's a portion of it that's legacy.
[28:05] SPEAKER_02: But I also think that that you know people underestimate how difficult it can be to do that and I think that that's really been an area where we focused a lot of our time on is how do we deliver it in a way that's really easy for both the customer understand and the advisor to provide you know so it's been a gap that a lot of people have tried to solve a lot of internal processes and tools and what not and yeah for us so it's interesting because it has been an issue and to get there has been has it's just hard.
[28:34] SPEAKER_01: Yeah so let's talk about that because I'm you know I'm I'm always intrigued with the first customer don't you don't you know breach confidentiality on this conversation but how did you get your first customer who helped me raise their hand and said yeah James I'm willing to go to try on this one or not I'll try but a buy can you talk about that first customer piece or you're with cap intel.
[29:00] SPEAKER_02: Yeah for sure so like we were a B2B business and I think that you know when you read a lot of different start methodologies like the lean startup or you or you hear people speaking in conferences and one night and trying to sort of assess like as an entrepreneur early days how do I measure success for me and that I'm solving the problem.
[29:20] SPEAKER_02: There's sort of two like large speaking to camps the people sort of push one is revenue and the other one is usage or sort of indicating metrics.
[29:29] SPEAKER_02: The indicating metrics this metrics component especially when I started cap intel was sort of the leading thought process of get people to use it show that they're using it and you know that will prove that they like it and I always thought I'm really going to focus on revenue because I know if somebody's willing to pay for it then that it's going to be something that they like it solves the pain point.
[29:53] SPEAKER_02: And so we were trying to sell a very early precursor of the platform was a much more basic version than it is today maybe has 15% of the capabilities and you know we showed it to a bunch of different firms we found some leading you know thought some thought leaders one who's actually from Newfoundland so there you go who was able to yeah was able to
[30:24] SPEAKER_02: see kind of the vision and he said okay I'll give it a shot and you know it was just a really simple tool at that point but it's all it's all to pretty high level like they're pretty surface area pain point for them.
[30:35] SPEAKER_02: And we were able to to sign our first contract for I think it was I still have the check I printed it you know we took it we took it we went to a restaurant and it was like $700 and like that or $500 and we spent it all at dinner just to say like
[30:54] SPEAKER_02: yeah celebrate the win. Yeah it's so cool. Yeah especially you're not really paying yourself a ton when you start and so you're able to get splashes so I'd encourage people to find your first revenue check you know and and within you know reason spend spend a good chunk of it on like a nice
[31:10] SPEAKER_01: cake dinner or something like that just to celebrate so celebrate right on dude I love that I love that now were you based in Toronto when this happened or yeah talk about Toronto get no alifex because it's party you're scaling.
[31:25] SPEAKER_01: You've obviously had three locations I'm sure you have many customers beyond just simply those three centers but can you talk about this the gross strategy.
[31:35] SPEAKER_02: Why those markets and how you're ultimately planning to grow cap and tell into the future. Yeah great great question so we we were based in Toronto for a long time for sort of our start two two and a half years or or what are actually more three years and we kind of been around we went out to you know the
[31:56] SPEAKER_02: yes Plano rented space from a venture capital firm who had a little office that they gave for very little which was really nice of them so shadowed to scale up thanks for the thanks for having us for it was supposed to be 90 days we were there for like a year and a half and it was awesome but yeah so we we we started there moved around a little bit and then we started to get some more revenue
[32:17] SPEAKER_02: Moody sales downtown where all the you know banks and and our customers are of course yes or a large chunk of them are and so then with the pandemic we sort of said okay you know we had people from kind of all over Canada you know really from from kind of the East Coast and from Toronto and from
[32:38] SPEAKER_02: Gattano who had all moved into Toronto to try to make this work and our CTO for example Max seized from Gattano and so he actually moved to Toronto with us for a year or so and then was kind of doing a commute back and forth on the train every other week he'd stay in Toronto helping run around pitching it different banks with me and sort of helping also build the platform at the same time so quite a heroic effort from him.
[33:05] SPEAKER_02: Right and then when the pandemic hit I was kind of okay everybody you know go home we're not really sure when this is all going to be done and so location no longer an issue and the need for us to be right downtown in Toronto obviously changed so we sort of let people go wherever they want it and then as they did that they went back into their own home networks where they started to know people and we're able to actually recruit really good people because they're like oh hey I know Max I worked with him
[33:34] SPEAKER_02: you know where I know about him or we had school together and so we were actually able to use that to start to build a different offices so until January or sorry July of 2021 we had a Toronto and Gattano and then I moved back to Halifax in January our head of product moved from Toronto in July and we opened up an office in Volta in Halifax and so ever since then we've been sort of scaling the three offices which approximately hold
[34:04] SPEAKER_01: 10 people in each region right now yeah yeah it is good it really really great so I'm going to pause the journey of to the next level where you're going to take it next but you know you James what why did you come back to Halifax you could have stayed in Toronto you could have I mean you got roots here and I get those emotional connects is there really is that what it is there's something bigger better faster
[34:34] SPEAKER_01: that you can share with the audience because this is a Canadian audience and a lot you know Halifax is becoming a real spotlight for the world to come to let alone Canadians so talk about yours as the founders there's the presence CEO why you did you go to Halifax again?
[34:53] SPEAKER_02: Yeah great question so you know when I left I felt like Halifax had had a lot it as an accountant and in that sort of space you know I left because there wasn't a job in the area that I want to be in and you know I felt I felt that
[35:10] SPEAKER_02: it was important to me at some point in my journey to be able to create jobs in these coast so they just thought it was something that was like personally important to me
[35:18] SPEAKER_02: because I think there should be really good opportunities there and so I kind of had that my back back in my mind when I left
[35:25] SPEAKER_02: thought maybe I could come back someday but didn't really see a way to make it happen so it's okay well that's okay I can start an officer or do something there that I'll
[35:32] SPEAKER_02: I'll feel good about it with the pandemic obviously location kind of really freed up and so we thought it would just you know we were renting at the time
[35:38] SPEAKER_02: I thought hey you know why why have the flexibility of renting if you don't have the flexibility of renting and it seemed like
[35:44] SPEAKER_02: there's really no opportunity cost to do it so so I was able to move back and then obviously in the interim kind of the past six years or so
[35:51] SPEAKER_02: Halifax really stepped his game up when it comes to you know startups and place live and and you know amenities and all that and so it's really impressed
[35:59] SPEAKER_02: obviously it came back a ton it's really impressed by it and I had a key member of the team or had a product you really
[36:07] SPEAKER_02: want it to also come back and we thought you know let's make it go of this let's try to see what the the local talent looks like
[36:13] SPEAKER_02: we obviously been you know really really impressed really blown away and we actually move people from other parts of the country to
[36:18] SPEAKER_02: Canada so or true two sorry at Nova Scotia from from BC from Ontario
[36:23] SPEAKER_02: and so people sort of come from all over and I think it offers us as a as a as a company
[36:29] SPEAKER_02: opportunity to provide people sort of different options when it comes to where they want to live you know if it's if it's
[36:34] SPEAKER_02: getting a ratoa if it's Toronto if it's Halifax you know there are different sort of locations now that people can do it so it's always
[36:42] SPEAKER_02: important to me to be able to start and and and bring people there just just coming from Halifax and wanting to you know help
[36:48] SPEAKER_02: with that wave of of all the new startups and talent and how many new jobs and cool
[36:53] SPEAKER_02: things people are up to and trying to be a part of that and support that I'm combined with the pandemic sort of
[36:59] SPEAKER_02: seeing that as an as an opportunity so that's really cool and we're proud of that yeah well it and we're proud to have
[37:05] SPEAKER_01: you back man so people are leaning in right now I know I am I'm saying oh wait a minute James
[37:15] SPEAKER_01: it's a virtual world now why did you bring people from BC to Halifax what's your philosophy strategy
[37:23] SPEAKER_01: on still running virtual locate or your separate locations but bringing people physically to to
[37:31] SPEAKER_01: Halifax what was the what's the strategy of the rationale behind that physical mood for people
[37:37] SPEAKER_02: yeah so I think you know early early days it looked like it's a things are kind of opening back up
[37:42] SPEAKER_02: that hybrid was going to be sort of the future of it and you know the recent setback
[37:46] SPEAKER_02: it's not going to back to virtual but I think hybrid will still always be a really attractive option for
[37:50] SPEAKER_02: people even if they're you know going from from you know an hour outside of the city to to the office
[37:56] SPEAKER_02: you know once or twice a week or or twice a month I still feel people like to have that connection
[38:03] SPEAKER_02: and certainly the people we brought in the team like Devon opportunity to sort of meet together and
[38:07] SPEAKER_02: you know maybe be able to hang out do do some social stuff together um
[38:12] SPEAKER_02: right that connection I still think it's really important to the extent that you can do it
[38:16] SPEAKER_02: virtual is always going to be a part of it but I think being able to offer remote sorry hybrid
[38:21] SPEAKER_02: in multiple markets is going to allow us to compete better for talent because people don't feel
[38:27] SPEAKER_02: like they just have to be from home you know we've spoke to a bunch of people who've been
[38:31] SPEAKER_02: worked from home kind of pre pandemic going all the way through we say you know I just really
[38:35] SPEAKER_02: like to be able to engage with the team if I could and we've been able to win people to train
[38:40] SPEAKER_02: the long board because of that that opportunity and so when we had some people where we thought
[38:44] SPEAKER_02: you know we really want to build this office out um we we had some people really committed to
[38:49] SPEAKER_02: the business we had hate you mind kind of moving and helping us build this office out uh and they
[38:53] SPEAKER_02: they were you know all over it and then as we started to post jobs um and saying what could
[38:58] SPEAKER_02: it's based on how it facts but it's hybrid work you can still work from home we've found some people
[39:02] SPEAKER_02: who are kind of interested in moving anyway and and we're from you know other markets and then
[39:07] SPEAKER_02: we're really good candidates or the best candidate for the role for us we were able to kind of
[39:11] SPEAKER_02: bring them in and say okay this is going to be additionally how we can kind of how we can kind of
[39:15] SPEAKER_02: build it so um yeah that's been huge for us and I think I think people enjoy it because in the
[39:21] SPEAKER_02: different offices they can they can do that and then for me as as CEO when I go visit I can
[39:27] SPEAKER_02: get and see everybody and I get a chance to sort of meet a team um which I did just in the fall
[39:32] SPEAKER_02: sort of before um everything I'm shut down again I had a good opportunity when when things
[39:37] SPEAKER_02: are pretty light to be able to actually go and and meet everybody and you know we're in a for
[39:41] SPEAKER_02: dinner and and we did some workshoping and just really nice way to kind of get to meet um the
[39:46] SPEAKER_02: the team and sort of see the vibe in each different office yeah that's so cool um I know my daughter
[39:53] SPEAKER_01: works for a marketing company trampoline and and Halifax and they offer that same
[39:57] SPEAKER_01: lot she loves it she absolutely that's that's key of an attraction for her so so for what that
[40:04] SPEAKER_01: is worth that research of one there's a validation for you so um I guess more questions coming
[40:13] SPEAKER_01: for you but the next one I want to know is you know ladies and gentlemen you know uh James talks
[40:19] SPEAKER_01: about 10 people in each location he's been in business for almost five years uh maybe
[40:25] SPEAKER_01: you're more now based on the linked info probably keep the the ticker going well um that's uh
[40:31] SPEAKER_01: that's good growth from an employee perspective uh great growth how did you scale when did you
[40:39] SPEAKER_01: here's the question when do you know when to add another person into your business
[40:46] SPEAKER_02: yeah so so it's interesting we're in the middle of actually changing our mindset on this um okay
[40:51] SPEAKER_02: but sort of in the zero to 30 so we we started 2021 at I think around nine people
[40:58] SPEAKER_02: um we ended 2021 at 26 people so last year was a big year of growth for us um since then we've had
[41:04] SPEAKER_02: like I think another five people in this first month in in in January so we're really seeing a lot of
[41:10] SPEAKER_02: growth right now and um the early days I still think this is a great rule to follow is bring
[41:17] SPEAKER_02: somebody on when the pain of not having them is excruciating and you know when you are really
[41:23] SPEAKER_02: capital strapped as you are in the early days you need to be careful with every dollar you spend
[41:28] SPEAKER_02: it's really important to take that time to really bring people in as needed and and when you're
[41:36] SPEAKER_02: really starting to feel that you need them and that's going to help make sure that you're getting
[41:40] SPEAKER_02: the most of that person they're coming in and and immediately adding value um and you have a really
[41:46] SPEAKER_02: defined role because sometimes early days you don't really know until it's really painful like what
[41:51] SPEAKER_02: that role needs to be and and you know the cuteness of that pain um you know where you're going to
[41:56] SPEAKER_02: feel like janking your day where you really like to have that helping hand that's going to really
[42:01] SPEAKER_02: focus you on what that person needs to do and that's really important because it's it's you know
[42:07] SPEAKER_02: I think it's really one of the things so I went through two accelerators in in in our journey I went
[42:13] SPEAKER_02: through a creative instruction lab in these coasts and then I went through next founders um in Toronto
[42:17] SPEAKER_02: but one thing that a J Agrawal who sort of helped found both of those and I believe found it
[42:22] SPEAKER_02: creative instruction lab um always says is is startups don't fail because they have a bad idea or
[42:29] SPEAKER_02: a bad team they typically fail because they run out of time and so the idea is that you want to make
[42:35] SPEAKER_02: sure you're really spending your money really carefully you're you're being really judicious with
[42:40] SPEAKER_02: every dollar you spend and with every role you build and so what you really don't want to do is
[42:46] SPEAKER_02: bring on somebody before you need them because or or or even you know just as you need them you
[42:53] SPEAKER_02: want to kind of be a little late on the hiring to a degree because that's going to make sure you
[42:58] SPEAKER_02: really understand how to leverage that person that they're going to come in and immediately start
[43:02] SPEAKER_02: to dad value and free you up you're also going to have how you can use your new time that you have
[43:07] SPEAKER_02: in the in the past and I think that works to a degree yeah when you start sorry go ahead
[43:13] SPEAKER_02: no go ahead when you say when you start yeah when you start to grow and you start to to you know
[43:19] SPEAKER_02: get a more scalable business that's that is more predictably growing that's when you can't have
[43:25] SPEAKER_02: that mindset anymore so you need to change it to we got to hire a head so yes I need to hire a
[43:31] SPEAKER_02: salesperson now they're going to start to make effect in four months when they start to make a
[43:36] SPEAKER_02: fact they're going to need support so maybe I need somebody to help implement the projects that
[43:40] SPEAKER_02: they're going to be working with you know you need to start thinking about how to hire a head
[43:44] SPEAKER_02: of yourself and so we've actually been working right now into how to change that mindset from sort of
[43:49] SPEAKER_02: the original that got us here which was higher when it's excruciating to you know higher capacity
[43:55] SPEAKER_02: ahead of of when you necessarily need it because there's ramp up time and you and you can start to
[43:59] SPEAKER_01: predict it more I can keep talking to you for hours man you really I just have these questions
[44:08] SPEAKER_01: she's coming to me coming to me but I can't so we'll have a subrignum we'll have a two point
[44:15] SPEAKER_01: old please let's set that up yeah you know awesome yeah yeah it's really we should do that let's
[44:22] SPEAKER_01: make sure we do that because your story is absolutely amazing so I got two questions and then I'm
[44:27] SPEAKER_01: I mean fortunately we have to remember we're dealing with entrepreneurs and these things
[44:31] SPEAKER_01: to their attention span might be a little lower you mentioned about bankers you you moved it all
[44:37] SPEAKER_01: downtown so you could go to banks to banks though so most startup entrepreneurs you lean it
[44:41] SPEAKER_01: oh how did you get meetings with these people you walk in the door and say hi I'm James Nova
[44:47] SPEAKER_01: Scotia went to Dell where do you say hey I'm in jujitsu champion better let me in
[44:56] SPEAKER_02: no did you get those conversations yeah so so I think you know canals and awesome market for
[45:03] SPEAKER_02: startups because it's a relatively small market and so it's a really great place to sort of incubate
[45:08] SPEAKER_02: in an area where you can you know the world is not as big as it feels all the time Toronto is smaller
[45:15] SPEAKER_02: than it feels in the industry that you're in right no matter how big it can feel it is smaller because
[45:21] SPEAKER_02: of the subset of people you're working with and so you know I really got entrenched in to the
[45:27] SPEAKER_02: financial district in the downtown core whether it was you know I had a gym membership there so I
[45:33] SPEAKER_02: met a bunch of people at the gym you know hey I work in this part of Bimo and oh hey do you know
[45:38] SPEAKER_02: this this person yeah yeah for sure hey let me set up the introduction you know it's really
[45:42] SPEAKER_02: really naturally like working the the network and trying to build up my own network and
[45:47] SPEAKER_02: put myself out there and try to attend things of people held different different conferences
[45:52] SPEAKER_02: that people held and whatnot to try to get my name and then also seeing okay who do I know that
[45:57] SPEAKER_02: might know somebody and and I think you don't have to have a network to to begin with you can
[46:04] SPEAKER_02: establish one yourself and I think that's really important you know I don't I didn't really use
[46:10] SPEAKER_02: to a large degree the network that I had at KPMG because there's a lot of private equity firms and
[46:15] SPEAKER_02: companies that weren't in the space and and didn't really know people in the space that I needed
[46:19] SPEAKER_02: so it was really about how do I build it really naturally and try to find ways to meet people and
[46:24] SPEAKER_02: so it was it was really just that was trying to network and then you get an introduction and
[46:29] SPEAKER_02: that would work it's not a scalable model from you know that doesn't necessarily work at at you
[46:33] SPEAKER_02: know with a hundred people trying to do it but for you to start in the really early days like you
[46:38] SPEAKER_02: can really invest time into that getting to know people and then naturally trying to find a way
[46:45] SPEAKER_02: to meet them or hey you do know this colleague and they might be able to then pass you to that
[46:49] SPEAKER_02: person they might know somebody and so sometimes you'd be sitting in front of somebody who is like
[46:53] SPEAKER_02: three or four introductions into it and they have no idea where you're sitting there but you know
[46:58] SPEAKER_02: why you're there and you know how you got there and that can be the way that it really started so
[47:03] SPEAKER_02: within the banks it's important to try to build a network of people who might know somebody there
[47:08] SPEAKER_02: try to find out what you can go in at at the ground level so if there's like a front line version
[47:14] SPEAKER_02: of what you're going after I'm trying to talk to some of those people you know these are different
[47:19] SPEAKER_02: ways you can do it with any sort of enterprise sales really but how can you find ways to meet people
[47:24] SPEAKER_02: who can then potentially eventually lead you there and people are pretty generous with networks
[47:30] SPEAKER_02: to people and and you know you want to pay that forward too if somebody's to meet somebody
[47:34] SPEAKER_02: definitely good to to make the introduction and not be you know be able to again pay that forward
[47:40] SPEAKER_02: because other people are going to do it for you and you never know right so that's really how it's
[47:45] SPEAKER_01: you never know yeah I absolutely absolutely you never know you know you mentioned something about
[47:49] SPEAKER_01: who do you know that I should know the great leadership the maverick and not the maverick anymore
[47:55] SPEAKER_01: he's more of a sage uh John Maxwell let's know he built his empire asking that simple question who do
[48:01] SPEAKER_01: you know that I should know and what's interesting people always move you up a scale it's never
[48:06] SPEAKER_01: about I'm going to put you down to the person that I just to get rid of you so I love that you
[48:11] SPEAKER_01: mentioned that what do you what is what is uh what specific roles do you assume as a CEO yes there's
[48:19] SPEAKER_01: a higher level of responsibility I get that but what what do you primarily focus on let's say on a
[48:25] SPEAKER_01: day-to-day basis as a CEO as a founder yeah really good question you know I think it's it's changing
[48:34] SPEAKER_02: which is important I'm a really good friend of mine um actually guy guy I met at the gym um downtown
[48:40] SPEAKER_02: he runs he runs a uh a software company in the financial space and you know he has these great
[48:46] SPEAKER_02: bits and I sort of said doing it one point when we were really growing I'm like look I really don't
[48:50] SPEAKER_02: know what I'm doing like I don't know what I still should be doing anymore like I don't know my
[48:53] SPEAKER_02: my role like you know I used to used to do a lot of a lot of this and now somebody else is doing it
[48:57] SPEAKER_02: and he's got love that he's like you know CEO should always be having a crisis of conscious like
[49:02] SPEAKER_02: what do I do or again in a crisis like how do I get here uh yes or identity crisis like how do I
[49:10] SPEAKER_02: mean and I think that's something that you know as you're doing work and as you are scaling it's like
[49:16] SPEAKER_02: okay am I the best person to be doing this or could somebody who had more time more time to think
[49:22] SPEAKER_02: about this be doing a better job right and and then okay can I empower that person so the more that
[49:27] SPEAKER_02: you're doing that your role is then to then create the best environment possible for these people to do
[49:35] SPEAKER_02: their best and so a lot of what I focus on on the day to day there's still some of that stuff I'm
[49:40] SPEAKER_02: doing administrative things and and and whatnot that's slowly getting passed off and I'm going to count
[49:46] SPEAKER_02: in two so I've obviously done our budget and all that type of work for a long time but as that
[49:50] SPEAKER_02: even comes off my plate you know I'm gonna be face okay then how do I make sure that that the
[49:55] SPEAKER_02: company and that people are really in the best place so spending a lot of time thinking about
[49:59] SPEAKER_02: leadership spending a lot of time thinking about how how what's the employee experience at the
[50:05] SPEAKER_02: business how do I make it as as good as it can possibly be how do I empower them and make them feel
[50:10] SPEAKER_02: and you know like they really care about about the role and make them feel really autonomous
[50:16] SPEAKER_02: and and focusing a lot on on leadership and trying to be more strategic and less tactical
[50:22] SPEAKER_02: again that's gonna happen as you grow early days you're gonna have a lot more in your plate it's
[50:26] SPEAKER_02: a different sort of piece I think for the first 18 months my job is just to keep money in the account
[50:31] SPEAKER_02: you know it's kind of high-felt it's with those sales or for fundraising but it will continuously
[50:35] SPEAKER_02: evolve and I'm excited to see like as we keep growing as we we go into you know get to the 100
[50:41] SPEAKER_02: employee market to the the 200 or 500 like how that's going to change you know as more things get to
[50:48] SPEAKER_02: to to be held on by other people and and I get to see what they're able to do with it and how
[50:54] SPEAKER_02: they can grow up beyond whatever I could have ever accomplished that's gonna be really interesting
[50:58] SPEAKER_02: so that's that's what I'm excited for it's why I always want to be a CEO I think it's a really
[51:03] SPEAKER_02: great job I think it's a really interesting role interesting life and it's gonna keep changing as
[51:10] SPEAKER_02: more of this grows and and as I'm you know infinitely more redundant that's gonna be you know
[51:17] SPEAKER_01: the goal don't forget there's still a five year old boy in there that wants to be the CEO of McDonald's
[51:22] SPEAKER_01: right so yeah don't say that okay dude I am not I am not so I'm serious tweaked tweaked we're I
[51:32] SPEAKER_01: love to keep this conversation about the the transformation you're going you're you're just doing
[51:37] SPEAKER_01: amazing stuff uh your team was just amazing setting up this conversation for what it's worth kind
[51:43] SPEAKER_01: uh tentative I've had to cancel once you had to cancel once and so we uh you really got a
[51:48] SPEAKER_01: cool culture going kind people who are obviously doing an impactful work um so just
[51:54] SPEAKER_01: amazing stuff how do people hang out with you first and how do people then hang out with cap
[52:00] SPEAKER_02: intel great great great question so you know if you want to see what we're up to we got a ton of
[52:06] SPEAKER_02: jobs posting all the time so if you want to be a part of a team uh linked in the easiest place
[52:11] SPEAKER_02: that's kind of where we're most active and we also have uh do a quick plug uh it's for a small
[52:17] SPEAKER_02: sub set of the audience here we also have a podcast where we cover new fun launches new product
[52:21] SPEAKER_02: launches called the frontier finance where we interview a lot of portfolio managers from the asset
[52:25] SPEAKER_02: management team um of different groups yeah I I host that um and you know that comes out once a
[52:32] SPEAKER_02: week we had a really good first season just wrap second seasons kicking off in March so we're
[52:36] SPEAKER_02: really excited to cover some interesting financial products if uh that is your thing that's
[52:41] SPEAKER_02: probably the the best ways um to get a hold of us um and then if you ever have any questions
[52:47] SPEAKER_02: you know my future at capentell.com um if you're looking for a role we're always want to
[52:52] SPEAKER_02: hear from people and be able to see uh who we can bring on the team because we just love working
[52:56] SPEAKER_02: with awesome people and we're trying to keep that going so um yeah
[53:02] SPEAKER_01: and there again I'm gonna do my there we go the mic drop we are done ladies and gentlemen
[53:08] SPEAKER_01: James Rockwood thanks for hanging out with me uh capentell keep the journey going my friend
[53:14] SPEAKER_01: and uh I can't wait to continue to connect with you I don't think we're first-level connections
[53:21] SPEAKER_01: on LinkedIn so please accept my connection as I'm gonna put that out in just a second but let's
[53:26] SPEAKER_01: keep hanging out let's keep telling your story and let's keep contributing to help you contribute
[53:30] SPEAKER_01: to to your journey thank you my friend have a good thanks so much yeah it's just been awesome thank
[53:36] SPEAKER_01: you so much have a great one thanks rumors
