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TRANSCRIPTION WITH SPEAKERS
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[00:00] SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Canada's Podcast, the number one podcast for entrepreneurs by entrepreneurs.
[00:08] SPEAKER_00: So, Eric, welcome to Canada's Podcast on this beautiful day in Toronto, you know, about
[00:13] SPEAKER_00: 20 degrees, which is kind of ludicrous for November the 11th, but it's terrific.
[00:20] SPEAKER_00: But, you know, when you tell us a little bit about yourself, I ask everyone to do this,
[00:25] SPEAKER_00: who you are, why I'm sitting here talking to you, and, you know, let people know
[00:32] SPEAKER_00: who you are, I think that makes it more interesting.
[00:34] SPEAKER_02: Yep, absolutely. Thanks again, Philip, for having me today.
[00:38] SPEAKER_02: I'm like you a long time marketing advertising nerd.
[00:43] SPEAKER_02: I wanted to build websites back in the mid 90s.
[00:47] SPEAKER_02: I was doing some fine art in school and some sports and had to find a way.
[00:52] SPEAKER_02: And that's somebody I was building websites.
[00:54] SPEAKER_02: And ultimately that got me hooked and I've been in the business ever since and have seen it, obviously,
[00:59] SPEAKER_02: more from change over the last couple of decades and still a great business to be in.
[01:04] SPEAKER_02: And now I'm working on a tool called Morpheo, which is a piece of software for marketers and agencies and brands trying to help, you know,
[01:13] SPEAKER_02: bring a little bit of solace and protection and automation to the marketing industry.
[01:18] SPEAKER_00: Okay, all right.
[01:20] SPEAKER_00: So I mean, if you always watch as an entrepreneur, how did you become one?
[01:24] SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's always an interesting kind of journey for people, I mean,
[01:29] SPEAKER_00: and that's part of what was in the news about is, you know, how did you get here?
[01:33] SPEAKER_00: Why the hell does someone step into a risk position when most people, I mean,
[01:40] SPEAKER_00: they're perfectly talented and capable of all the job except sometimes they can't keep them much.
[01:47] SPEAKER_02: I've done that. I've done that.
[01:49] SPEAKER_02: I think that's how I ended up being an entrepreneur.
[01:52] SPEAKER_02: That's all I know.
[01:54] SPEAKER_02: That's right.
[01:55] SPEAKER_02: No, I mean, I've asked my question for myself that question actually a lot over the years.
[02:00] SPEAKER_02: And I used to answer it and say, which is true.
[02:04] SPEAKER_02: I used to be in still in some cases a terrible listener.
[02:07] SPEAKER_02: And so back to my high school coaches, I really wasn't great at taking their advice.
[02:13] SPEAKER_02: I always wanted to figure out something out on my own.
[02:18] SPEAKER_02: And I think that just naturally led me to loving the opportunity to problem solve.
[02:24] SPEAKER_02: And so coming out of school, it was a sort of forced hand.
[02:28] SPEAKER_02: I had a quick job. And again, I just didn't find the what I what I loved about why I went to school.
[02:33] SPEAKER_02: And it was just again, this is late 90s.
[02:36] SPEAKER_02: So at a time where building websites and being creative on the digital space of website and build et cetera,
[02:42] SPEAKER_02: there wasn't a lot of people doing it.
[02:43] SPEAKER_00: I was very new then.
[02:44] SPEAKER_00: It was involved with it.
[02:46] SPEAKER_00: But it was it was a brand new.
[02:47] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, brand new.
[02:48] SPEAKER_02: And I think that that time it just before the dot com.
[02:50] SPEAKER_02: And so there was a lot of money floating around in.
[02:53] SPEAKER_02: And so a couple of my friends from from school and I got together.
[02:57] SPEAKER_02: And we just started offering our services to to anybody that would listen.
[03:03] SPEAKER_02: And we got lucky and we were able to really grow that business for about eight years until I exited that business and went in a different direction.
[03:11] SPEAKER_02: But got that bug pretty early on in terms of the problem solving then of business and figuring out finance to, you know, also working in the service side.
[03:20] SPEAKER_02: And eventually somebody had to, you know, answer the phone and, you know, one story I remember that was nerve racking and in exciting was I got a call one day from gentleman named Stephen.
[03:31] SPEAKER_02: And he worked at a company called AOL.
[03:33] SPEAKER_02: And I wasn't sure if he said his email address was AOL or if he actually meant that he worked at AOL.
[03:38] SPEAKER_02: And at the time I was in my business partners parents basement like all good startups.
[03:43] SPEAKER_02: And we had a decent interconnect internet connection in our own phone and in our own computers and we were in business, right.
[03:49] SPEAKER_02: So they loved some of the work that we did on the personal side and said, hey, we'd love to come and see your operation and see if you can help us with some user interface design.
[04:00] SPEAKER_02: And we said quickly, well, we actually happened to be heading to New York next week, which wasn't entirely, you know, the truth.
[04:08] SPEAKER_02: But it was the first time we're thinking on your heel on your feet there. Sorry. And figuring it out. I think I think then I became I became addicted and I'll stop my tangent.
[04:19] SPEAKER_02: But I was speaking to a fantastic individual actually about a couple months ago. And they, you know, parallel their entrepreneurial ism to sports and team sports and in being able to be a leader within that and it trained them.
[04:35] SPEAKER_02: That they, you know, could take that initiative and take a stance and things and look at opportunity and overcome it.
[04:43] SPEAKER_02: And just because I played a lot of sports as well, I think there's a combination of of that a little bit of luck and some, some genes and I think that's what got me started.
[04:52] SPEAKER_00: Okay. Now, so, you know, you've gone through, you know, 20 years ago.
[04:59] SPEAKER_00: I think I was like the challenge side of it, you know, and the way we learn from challenges.
[05:10] SPEAKER_00: What's been the greatest challenge we've faced to date in your business, you know, and how did you overcome that?
[05:19] SPEAKER_00: I mean, every day's a challenge. I love the word challenge. It means the very high thing for me. But what, you know, when you, what's the greatest one saying the last couple of decades.
[05:30] SPEAKER_00: And what, how did you get around it?
[05:34] SPEAKER_02: Oh, man. I mean, how much time do we have? But the one that comes, the one that comes to mind is, and first I will say that the, if you want to become an entrepreneur in a well-rounded one, there's no better way.
[05:48] SPEAKER_02: And more expensive way than running your own business in the world of marketing and advertising because you, you bounce around or at least we did, we didn't have a specific sector in our agency or agencies that we focused on.
[06:01] SPEAKER_02: We worked for pretty much anybody that had intent and there's a whole bunch of criteria. But, you know, you, you get in and I think as a naturally inquisitive and problem solver and just like you said, loving the challenge.
[06:12] SPEAKER_02: That you, you have to dig in and really understand that entire business and being fortunate enough to, in our case, work with the owners or at least the directing managers.
[06:22] SPEAKER_02: You really start to understand every kind of business. So over the years from fitness to beverage and cannabis to fashion and retail to on and on and on, you know, we become this sort of well-rounded business person, sort of by accident.
[06:35] SPEAKER_02: And I think that, you know, there's many, many, many stories of challenges within that. But, you know, we started an agency after I left my original one and this company called our cane in 2011 and we quickly grew to one of the fastest growing agencies in North America.
[06:51] SPEAKER_02: You know, again, from basements, of course, like every business to almost a hundred people and just over five years and a lot of growing clients.
[06:59] SPEAKER_02: But, you know, we had one massive client that, you know, we had, we had too much revenue dependency on and we knew it.
[07:10] SPEAKER_02: But I think we didn't plan well enough for what that meant to our business and not from as much from a financial perspective, but more from the controlling side of we weren't really able to do what we wanted to do.
[07:25] SPEAKER_02: And so we learned very quickly that we had to make a conscious decision and luckily it worked out both on both sides. But then we moved very quickly to never letting that happen to us again.
[07:37] SPEAKER_02: And so we kind of got lucky.
[07:41] SPEAKER_02: Well, in the industry space as agency world, it's sort of one of those things, especially the larger level, as you know, there's one or two clients that you win the business on and you ride that wave.
[07:52] SPEAKER_02: And if they go away, you lose a lot of people, you lose market share and sometimes you have to close your doors and we never wanted that to be the case.
[07:59] SPEAKER_02: And so knowing that and having a taste of holy crap, this client could leave and, you know, there goes 50% of our revenue, you know, that was a wide, a wide and rude awakening.
[08:09] SPEAKER_02: So definitely the biggest challenge that I remember.
[08:11] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm not going to learn the same thing. Never let time become more than 20%.
[08:15] SPEAKER_01: There you go.
[08:16] SPEAKER_01: That was that was my take away.
[08:18] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I think I think we got down to about 8% on the max. Sometimes it would it would get up to 10, but it would never be over 12.
[08:26] SPEAKER_02: So we lowered that even down a bit and that took probably seven or eight years, Philip to actually figure out.
[08:32] SPEAKER_01: So, you know, if you could go, I mean, you've done a lot in the last couple of days.
[08:39] SPEAKER_01: And if you go back to the beginning again, you know, what kind of what kind of advice would you give to me?
[08:47] SPEAKER_01: Because we have lots of, you know, okay, younger entrepreneurs and you all right, listen to me show, you know, think about it 20 years ago.
[08:56] SPEAKER_01: What kind of advice would you give yourself now that you've learned? I mean, I think it's both being in that kind of thing.
[09:06] SPEAKER_01: So yeah, what's what do you think?
[09:09] SPEAKER_01: The jam you learn from?
[09:12] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's funny. I just had this conversation with an agency friend of mine out in New Zealand.
[09:19] SPEAKER_02: And my first instinct was to not get into the agency business and I was joking to them.
[09:27] SPEAKER_02: But I said it in a way where I was like, I didn't mean that. I love marketing.
[09:31] SPEAKER_02: But the agency's side of service and I said, and I said, what do I mean? But yeah, sorry, he said, what do I, what do you mean by that?
[09:36] SPEAKER_02: And I said, well, if you, you have to focus on service, you have to focus on, you know, understanding what your client needs.
[09:43] SPEAKER_02: But what the business actually is is selling results.
[09:46] SPEAKER_02: And that's what clients are paying you to do. And that's what they want you to think about.
[09:50] SPEAKER_02: And you can be wrong and you can make mistakes.
[09:51] SPEAKER_02: But at one point, if you get to becoming an order taker and ultimately just trying to let service keep that relationship going,
[10:00] SPEAKER_02: someone else is going to be better and smarter and faster and and and more hungry than you.
[10:06] SPEAKER_02: So that's always the way advice I would come is make sure, you know, ultimately that you're selling results that you think about a strategy that allows you to be better and different than your competition.
[10:18] SPEAKER_02: So you're not selling the same thing, you know, to look at finance first and make sure that you have plans to grow your business, understand cashflow and all those things.
[10:29] SPEAKER_02: And if you're, if you're willing to do that, then the last and most important part is, you know, are you willing to to live in that sort of sweet and sour part of entrepreneur, which is, you're always on.
[10:39] SPEAKER_02: And you're never really off and you have to have that conversation with your spouse partner family member or whatever, whoever you're going it through, those are the kind of forming things and ultimately that relates to that whole work, live balance or work life, whatever you want to call it.
[10:54] SPEAKER_02: I like to say work live because that's an entrepreneur. If you're in it with your spouse and partner, and you can completely free yourself to be on it, that's where the scale comes in.
[11:03] SPEAKER_02: And I think that's where the passion lives and that's a two way street, but that's the couple points of advice that I give.
[11:10] SPEAKER_01: The other thing that I ask everybody because I love the answers is, you know, what, what do we all have mentors, be they parents, be there, but whatever.
[11:24] SPEAKER_01: What's the best piece of advice you see that you kind of carry on in your talk?
[11:32] SPEAKER_01: That's just that that's there all the time.
[11:35] SPEAKER_02: Well, I mean, the easy way to say that is you've got to, you've got to love getting up and, you know, and attacking every single day.
[11:45] SPEAKER_02: If you're hitting this news button, you know, you're in the wrong, you're in the wrong business, you know, before I had kids and I made the speech once to my team and I said, my wife was there.
[11:56] SPEAKER_02: And I said, by accident, and I said, I love weekdays and the week more than I love weekends because I just cannot wait to attack the opportunities that are at hand.
[12:09] SPEAKER_02: And maybe that wasn't the best thing to say with a lovely wife in the room.
[12:15] SPEAKER_02: And it is still true to this day. And of course, it's finding that balance of, you know, of all that with family and kids, et cetera.
[12:22] SPEAKER_02: But I still have that same feeling I cannot wait. And I remember, I remember the feeling of what what it was like those that small period of of my life where I dreaded the Monday morning.
[12:34] SPEAKER_02: I remember a whole lot of this. And I remember that feeling on the Sunday night and the Monday morning and I made a vow that I would never, ever, ever have to go through and live that again.
[12:45] SPEAKER_02: If I so could choose and that's what really kind of keeps me keeps me going.
[12:52] SPEAKER_01: So, just move on some kind of fun question.
[12:55] SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
[12:57] SPEAKER_01: If you want to do it, what you're doing now, what do you think you'd be doing instead?
[13:04] SPEAKER_02: Well, if I had to make money, the one thing I've always loved is, you know, home renovation, interior design, the whole seeing the vision of a project and executing it ultimately is, I think, why I'm in this business too, which is actually closely related.
[13:20] SPEAKER_02: But, you know, that hands on side of creating websites, graphic design, that's, you know, that's what I grew up doing and love seeing something and all the way to fruition.
[13:29] SPEAKER_02: So, if I had to make money, would be doing that. If I didn't have to worry about money, obviously, it's, you know, sports related.
[13:36] SPEAKER_02: I've become a big roller hockey in line player, you know, playing ice since I was two years old.
[13:42] SPEAKER_02: So, that's a cool passion and I run a league here in our city and trying to get kids to be healthy and involved, of course, my own two, but that's sort of the sports passion.
[13:52] SPEAKER_02: So, there's two ways I'll answer it, Phil.
[13:54] SPEAKER_01: Well, what made you stay in Toronto? I mean, you know, you're in the media business.
[13:59] SPEAKER_01: I guess Toronto is the number one in place to be in Canada.
[14:03] SPEAKER_01: But, you know, being successful enough in New York and some of Cisco and a few other places that you could go hang out and, you know, what to do.
[14:16] SPEAKER_02: Well, and I know I didn't clarify this because our offices and head offices in Toronto, but I actually, in half of our team is there, but I live in London, Ontario.
[14:24] SPEAKER_02: And technically in the middle of nowhere outside of it and grew up.
[14:27] SPEAKER_02: And you're on the flat.
[14:28] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I know London pretty well.
[14:29] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, most people do. There's this weird connection to it.
[14:33] SPEAKER_02: But, you know, it's funny. We started here.
[14:36] SPEAKER_02: My original business was with, we did a lot of the really cool early production.
[14:42] SPEAKER_02: By the way, I'm in Hamilton just to get there.
[14:44] SPEAKER_02: Oh, there you go. Okay, I'm not too far at all. I should mention.
[14:46] SPEAKER_02: You know, we could have gotten together, but, you know, next time.
[14:49] SPEAKER_02: But, we got a little bit lucky.
[14:52] SPEAKER_02: So, we stayed here and worked with agencies all over the world and we did a lot of their production.
[14:56] SPEAKER_02: And that was my original business and, you know, EOL, as I mentioned, was one of those kind of early amazing clients we got.
[15:02] SPEAKER_02: You know, and, you know, Parley actually, Osfer, second of the, it's gone back to that with, you know, what we're going through right now, which is a whole nother conversation.
[15:11] SPEAKER_02: But we found pretty quickly that we could have quite a quality of life living in London and the cost of living in our ability at that time.
[15:19] SPEAKER_02: Anyway, you know, direct flights from London to New York and Chicago and, you know, Cleveland and a whole bunch of other places really quickly.
[15:26] SPEAKER_02: So, you know, we had clients, yes, everywhere, in inclusive of Toronto.
[15:31] SPEAKER_02: And it just became a great place to run and start and manage a business.
[15:35] SPEAKER_02: And, you know, once we grew up a little, quickly realized that there's a ton of fantastic head offices and that the city of London itself was growing.
[15:42] SPEAKER_02: So, I would spend most of my time between Calgary and Toronto and London for majority of the last decade in our offices and our clients and in our team in those spots.
[15:54] SPEAKER_02: But love Toronto, love London, obviously love Calgary. Those are my, you know, three favorite places to live and visit.
[16:00] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm pretty well traveled and stuff all over the planet from Toronto.
[16:05] SPEAKER_01: So, you're getting good place for you.
[16:07] SPEAKER_01: So, you know, a little bit more about you, your morning or night person.
[16:14] SPEAKER_02: I am definitely a night person. Absolutely.
[16:18] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, I've actually watched a good video of the night people, but I would say it's about 80% morning to 20% night.
[16:30] SPEAKER_02: Well, there you go. I've tried, I've tried the morning. It's much easier without kids, especially when they're feet are in your face all night long.
[16:39] SPEAKER_02: So, maybe someday I'll go back to morning, but I'm not quite ready for that yet.
[16:43] SPEAKER_01: You know, this is something I would like to have. What book are you reading at the moment listening to? I don't get what you're reading.
[16:49] SPEAKER_02: You know what? I just downloaded, and normally it's business book after business book, but I just downloaded Matthew McConaughey's new sort of storytelling.
[17:01] SPEAKER_02: I don't know why that is the case.
[17:05] SPEAKER_02: But if anything, it's that transformation that he took from, you know, the guy without a shirt on the beach to an unbelievable actor in many of some of the best.
[17:17] SPEAKER_01: That's quite a strong. I saw an interview on a Sunday, I think it was amazing. He stopped. He stopped. He stopped. Yeah.
[17:27] SPEAKER_01: He stopped for two years. I love, I love people that do that. They'll stop and say, no, what are you doing this?
[17:34] SPEAKER_02: Yeah. So, here's some of the stories that he shares an unbelievable way to grow up and become what he's become. So, you know, I think that that's a big one.
[17:45] SPEAKER_01: Any books, any books that you read in the last decade that you really, you know, that it doesn't have to be just business, I mean, that have impacted the way you think.
[17:58] SPEAKER_02: Yeah. So, Jordan Pearson's, you know, 12 rules of life. And one recently, I'm trying to think of the author, the business of expertise, David Baker.
[18:09] SPEAKER_02: So, I mean, those are two on very different size. I'm still a big fan of, you know, how to win friends and influence people old, old school book. But the notion that you can really make people unbelievably love yourself for an introvert who's always trying to figure out talking about business very simple and easy and I'm very comfortable.
[18:33] SPEAKER_02: But still much an introvert around myself, et cetera, and trying to connect with people in different ways.
[18:40] SPEAKER_02: So, I often reference that and, you know, trying to be that golden retriever in the room that just makes people feel, you know, happy and smiling while you talk no matter who you're doing. So, that's a staple, you know, for sure.
[18:52] SPEAKER_02: And one other I can think of is, you know, what what clients want, especially in the service business, looking, you know, it's probably about 15 years old now. But those are a few that I would say that have stuck with me and I'll dust off every once in a while for sure.
[19:07] SPEAKER_01: So, you have to pick one word to describe yourself, what would it be and why?
[19:13] SPEAKER_02: I mean, I never stop working my wife's family. They're all well, they're all from the South of France and they're they're visiting with us quite often and every time I see her, she always says in French, you know, you never stop, you never stop with its kids and things outside and to work, et cetera.
[19:31] SPEAKER_02: You know, I learned very well from my grandfather who was an entrepreneur and salesman that, you know, you only have a certain amount of time to do your thing and make a mark. And, you know, I, I would say if it's driven or grit, those are two words that, you know, come to mind and that I've used an internal team workshops and things like that.
[19:53] SPEAKER_02: It just means a lot of me and I think working hard, you always get out what you put in and you got to enjoy the ride. So when you, when it's not working and you love it, it just makes every day that much more fun.
[20:04] SPEAKER_01: Sorry, I was probably still a little bit tough. Tell everyone what you're doing today. Now going to promotion, but it's pretty interesting.
[20:13] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, and I talked a little bit about the agency side and I, although still involved, we, we ended up ended up just selling the majority of that business to a new group called republics.
[20:25] SPEAKER_02: And together, we're actually taking aim at the industry again with a very, very new model based on technology and trying to bring together a bunch of us independent agencies to, to really go after some, some big market share.
[20:40] SPEAKER_02: So that's, that's exciting, which means I'm not, you know, I handed over the reins from the CEO and perspective a couple years ago, but our team stays intact.
[20:50] SPEAKER_02: You know, our, our leadership stays intact and we're obviously still around to help guide the ship and doing more of that with our parent company.
[20:58] SPEAKER_02: From a marketing perspective, though, we built some software to help our business grow and scale and, and allow our people to not be as busy and be as tired and be as stressed and.
[21:10] SPEAKER_02: And so we started to build automation in our agency that we've now turned, you know, into a separate business. So it's called Morpheo and it, you know, you're plugging your digital marketing and it's going to help tell you what's going on.
[21:22] SPEAKER_02: Mainly on the protection side. So our goal there is just to free up marketers again. This is an amazing business, but somehow it's turned from strategy and making clients love us to be in busy and grinding out keywords in Google all day long.
[21:35] SPEAKER_02: And we wanted to free up marketers to become more awesome and, you know, and less busy. So that's our mission right now.
[21:45] SPEAKER_01: It's very, very interesting.
[21:49] SPEAKER_01: You know, just, just on that front. So
[21:54] SPEAKER_01: you're killing the whole side of the industry before you automate using AI slash machine learning to do the work.
[22:02] SPEAKER_01: You know, you know, you and I go out in the 90s and 2000s when it was big ideas, but you know, before the brand you already have.
[22:15] SPEAKER_01: That's right. But the way we are now.
[22:18] SPEAKER_01: I mean, you want to get it back, but what about all the other people?
[22:23] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, well, I like I said, when I went through school, it was a.
[22:27] SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry.
[22:29] SPEAKER_02: No, no, no, no, it's a it's a great because you know, I I definitely have a view on it. But when I went through school, I was still working with film and and a computer at the same time.
[22:39] SPEAKER_02: And then the film part went away.
[22:41] SPEAKER_02: The next the next group came in that didn't have film anymore. I went directly to computers. And so automation is nothing new in computers technology and the evolution of of technology won't stop.
[22:53] SPEAKER_02: What I believe is we started to sell results because I didn't want to go through the subjective process of somebody telling me that green was better than blue and my idea was better than yours.
[23:05] SPEAKER_02: We wanted to let the data actually see through so that we would have more objective time to do what we wanted to let the data show what's working.
[23:13] SPEAKER_02: And I don't think that has changed at your right though. It's at a certain point. The big ideas, you know, we're only left to the big conglomerates and the big agencies that could sell that through.
[23:24] SPEAKER_02: And the idea of creative campaigns and creative problem solving got squished underneath this pile of optimization and keywords, you know, and digital marketing all very relevant for a certain period of time.
[23:38] SPEAKER_02: But it also made everybody like I said before very busy overworked in many cases stressed unhappy and we forgot how to not only be creative, but we also we don't have enough time as well.
[23:52] SPEAKER_02: So we don't aim to automate the agency or the marketing process. We want to be able to look at the repetitive mundane parts of all of our business and look at ways to get rid of those because none of our people want to be doing them.
[24:08] SPEAKER_02: We want to be strategists. We want us to solve business problems. We want to create beautiful experiences.
[24:13] SPEAKER_02: So that is our view on it. And in many cases, we look at the world of machine learning and AI as a form of customer service where if we can allow ourselves to be freed up to it and our clients can ultimately get what they want more quickly.
[24:28] SPEAKER_02: And the team that's doing it is that much more happier. I believe that better, more creative ideas will continue to rise to the top. So that's a big thing for us.
[24:38] SPEAKER_01: What's keeping you up at night?
[24:42] SPEAKER_02: Right now, not not too much, but outside of like I said, my children's feet in the in the face, you know, it's it's it's pretty good. I'm I'm up late up early, but I'm OK on the sleep side. But if if anything, really, it's just, you know, getting through this kind of crazy world and, you know, adjusting and we've all sort of been through that.
[25:05] SPEAKER_01: But that's right. Let's get through it. Right. So different times. OK. Well, hey, you know, thanks. It's been great. Thank you. Really enjoyed it. You know, people listen to us and look at us and we spark things. How can people get a whole new online?
[25:28] SPEAKER_02: Sure. Yeah, I mean, LinkedIn, Eric Vardin, just, you know, Google search me look for more Theo M O R P H I O dot AI, you can, you know, you can find me there too.
[25:41] SPEAKER_02: Just happy to talk to anybody, especially other agency owners, marketers, et cetera. You know, I do this all day long and then it gets me excited. So happy to, you know, to chat with anybody anytime.
[25:54] SPEAKER_01: OK. Thanks for coming on camera. This podcast. Thanks for all. Appreciate the time.
