Decarbonizing Your Business with Dr. Jamie Stephen

Transcript

Full transcript page · Interactive episode

============================================================
TRANSCRIPTION WITH SPEAKERS
============================================================

[00:00] SPEAKER_02: Welcome to Canada's podcast.
[00:05] SPEAKER_02: Hello, I'm Mario Tanaguse and this is Canada's podcast.
[00:09] SPEAKER_02: Decarbonization is a word we hear about quite often these days,
[00:13] SPEAKER_02: but what exactly is it?
[00:15] SPEAKER_02: And what does it mean in reducing our carbon footprint?
[00:18] SPEAKER_02: What are some of the decarbonization solutions that entrepreneurs can consider
[00:23] SPEAKER_02: as they build and grow their businesses?
[00:25] SPEAKER_02: Now, more than ever, there are expectations for companies to
[00:29] SPEAKER_02: integrate carbon-conscious decisions into operations.
[00:34] SPEAKER_02: But just how do they do that?
[00:36] SPEAKER_02: Joining me today is Dr. Jamie Steven,
[00:39] SPEAKER_02: managing director of Torchlight Bio Resources,
[00:43] SPEAKER_02: a decarbonization strategy and policy advisor for governments,
[00:47] SPEAKER_02: First Nations, utilities, among others.
[00:50] SPEAKER_02: Dr. Steven will share his insights on building with wood,
[00:55] SPEAKER_02: thermal energy, bioenergy, carbon capture and storage,
[00:59] SPEAKER_02: and how the forestry sector can support the most effective carbon-
[01:05] SPEAKER_02: decarbonization efforts that businesses can adopt.
[01:08] SPEAKER_02: Thanks for joining us, Dr. Steven.
[01:11] SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me, Mario.
[01:13] SPEAKER_00: I've really been looking forward to our conversation.
[01:15] SPEAKER_02: Me too. Let's talk first of all about Torchlight Bio Resources
[01:20] SPEAKER_02: and what you do, what's the company's purpose and mission?
[01:23] SPEAKER_00: Well, we're a strategy advisor.
[01:26] SPEAKER_00: As you mentioned, we provide our clients include governments,
[01:31] SPEAKER_00: large emitters, airlines,
[01:33] SPEAKER_00: and anyone that is a large carbon emitter,
[01:37] SPEAKER_00: a large greenhouse gas emitter.
[01:38] SPEAKER_00: And really what we do is we use a lot of knowledge on technology
[01:43] SPEAKER_00: and biological resources to provide solutions and recommendations
[01:48] SPEAKER_00: to our clients.
[01:50] SPEAKER_00: Really a lot of this strategy is very technology-informed.
[01:55] SPEAKER_00: And we work at the interface of the energy, forestry,
[02:00] SPEAKER_00: and agricultural sectors to provide those solutions.
[02:05] SPEAKER_02: Okay, then. Tell me about the history of Torchlight.
[02:08] SPEAKER_02: When did it start and why did it start?
[02:11] SPEAKER_00: So we were founded in 2009.
[02:14] SPEAKER_00: I've actually been working in this space
[02:17] SPEAKER_00: in the bioenergy biological resources space for almost 20 years now
[02:21] SPEAKER_00: since 2003.
[02:23] SPEAKER_00: I decided to go back to graduate school in 2005, 2006.
[02:28] SPEAKER_00: And as I was doing my master's in PhD realized there was really
[02:32] SPEAKER_00: an opportunity to take that information that we were generating
[02:37] SPEAKER_00: those learnings and provide a service to clients.
[02:42] SPEAKER_00: So that one of our largest projects actually started off
[02:45] SPEAKER_00: with the national government in Southeast Asia providing them guidance
[02:49] SPEAKER_00: on their national energy strategy and how they could transition
[02:54] SPEAKER_00: from a fossil fuel-based economy to one that's lower carbon
[02:59] SPEAKER_00: and dependent upon local resources.
[03:02] SPEAKER_02: Okay, then.
[03:04] SPEAKER_02: So we hear a lot about decarbonization quite often these days.
[03:09] SPEAKER_02: Can you explain to our viewers what that actually means?
[03:12] SPEAKER_02: It's kind of like one of those words that is out there all the time
[03:15] SPEAKER_02: used by everybody out of time all the time.
[03:18] SPEAKER_02: But I think the average person out there may not totally understand
[03:21] SPEAKER_02: what we're talking about here.
[03:23] SPEAKER_00: That's absolutely true.
[03:25] SPEAKER_00: This is a fairly technical space and a lot of terms are thrown around,
[03:29] SPEAKER_00: your carbon footprint, etc.
[03:31] SPEAKER_00: So decarbonization is really about the simplest form of reduction of carbon.
[03:37] SPEAKER_00: So this means less green house gases in the atmosphere
[03:41] SPEAKER_00: than would otherwise be the case.
[03:43] SPEAKER_00: So that means can include reducing the amount of emissions
[03:46] SPEAKER_00: that we are generating,
[03:48] SPEAKER_00: but also can include reducing emissions from the atmosphere
[03:52] SPEAKER_00: and actually bringing those concentrations down.
[03:56] SPEAKER_00: So that's what we mean by decarbonization.
[04:00] SPEAKER_02: Okay, super.
[04:01] SPEAKER_02: And so why is it important that, you know,
[04:04] SPEAKER_02: us as a planet embarks down this road of decarbonization?
[04:10] SPEAKER_00: Well, obviously climate change is front and center in terms of people's thinking
[04:15] SPEAKER_00: and companies thinking nowadays.
[04:17] SPEAKER_00: And a lot of that is really about the societal and economic impacts of a changing climate.
[04:24] SPEAKER_00: You know, it's,
[04:25] SPEAKER_00: it's there are inherently always tradeoffs in all these decisions.
[04:29] SPEAKER_00: There's some decarbonization approaches,
[04:33] SPEAKER_00: some ways to reduce emissions that are very expensive and will have very significant
[04:37] SPEAKER_00: economic implications.
[04:39] SPEAKER_00: And then there's others that are more affordable.
[04:41] SPEAKER_00: And there's always a tradeoff,
[04:43] SPEAKER_00: but overall we know that there is a change in climate
[04:47] SPEAKER_00: and that in general throughout the world,
[04:51] SPEAKER_00: this will have negative implications for the stability of our society.
[04:56] SPEAKER_00: I would add that, you know, a lot of the discussion is that the world is a whole
[05:01] SPEAKER_00: will be significantly negatively impacted.
[05:06] SPEAKER_00: And we will see absolutely transitions and changes in biological systems,
[05:11] SPEAKER_00: whether that's wildfires or droughts or that type of thing.
[05:16] SPEAKER_00: What I would particularly encourage your listeners to think about is the implications for humans and societies.
[05:24] SPEAKER_00: And the stability of those societies.
[05:26] SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of projections in terms of climate change,
[05:29] SPEAKER_00: where the world is a whole will be fine,
[05:32] SPEAKER_00: but humans will go through a very difficult period.
[05:35] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
[05:36] SPEAKER_02: So why is it important that entrepreneurs, especially in business owners,
[05:41] SPEAKER_02: those in the business world consider decarbonization solutions as they build
[05:47] SPEAKER_02: and as they grow their businesses?
[05:50] SPEAKER_00: Well, I think it's important to recognize how society is valuing decarbonization
[05:56] SPEAKER_00: and ESD performance.
[05:58] SPEAKER_00: So this is environmental, social, and governance.
[06:01] SPEAKER_00: And so this has implications for the brand values that companies have.
[06:08] SPEAKER_00: Also, you know, so that is obviously reflected in your products and your customers
[06:13] SPEAKER_00: and what they think about your company.
[06:15] SPEAKER_00: But it's also about your, your, excuse me, your employees and your company culture.
[06:21] SPEAKER_00: If you show in a commitment to essentially lead to a better world,
[06:27] SPEAKER_00: that actually will have significant benefits for your company and,
[06:32] SPEAKER_00: and the desire to, of employees to stay with your company also,
[06:38] SPEAKER_00: to attract, you know, excellent human resources.
[06:43] SPEAKER_02: And Jamie, how can the forestry sector support decarbonization efforts
[06:49] SPEAKER_02: that businesses can adopt?
[06:51] SPEAKER_02: And how important are forestry products in the whole decarbonization initiative?
[06:58] SPEAKER_00: Well, I work in this space because I firmly believe that it's actually the forestry sector
[07:03] SPEAKER_00: that is the most important, particularly in Canada when we talk about decarbonization
[07:08] SPEAKER_00: and reducing greenhouse gas emissions.
[07:11] SPEAKER_00: The forestry sector has an oversized influence in terms of its ability to provide renewable materials.
[07:20] SPEAKER_00: Renewable energy and decarbonization solutions to other sectors.
[07:25] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, to give you an example, you know, you're, you're in a building that's likely,
[07:31] SPEAKER_00: that building likely has a lot of wood in it.
[07:33] SPEAKER_00: That is stored carbon.
[07:36] SPEAKER_00: And so people have to recognize that when we are using wood products,
[07:40] SPEAKER_00: we're actually taking carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere and storing it for a really long time.
[07:46] SPEAKER_00: So that's one of the key things that the forestry sector can deliver is that carbon removal.
[07:52] SPEAKER_00: There's a number also the forestry sector is a provider of renewable energy.
[07:59] SPEAKER_00: So this is the form of electricity that people tend to think about.
[08:02] SPEAKER_00: But really the big component is in heat.
[08:07] SPEAKER_00: And so heat is actually two thirds of Canada's energy consumption.
[08:11] SPEAKER_00: We spend a lot of time talking about electricity, but that's only 16% of Canada's energy consumption.
[08:18] SPEAKER_00: So it's really about heat.
[08:20] SPEAKER_00: And so those two things are really the pillars that the forestry sector can provide.
[08:26] SPEAKER_00: So the solid wood, the carbon storage, and then that thermal energy.
[08:31] SPEAKER_02: So, you know, let's talk about some key efforts that are out there and can be undertaken.
[08:37] SPEAKER_02: And obviously we're talking here a little bit about building with wood, for example.
[08:42] SPEAKER_02: Can you explain a little bit more about that?
[08:46] SPEAKER_02: For example, I see quite a lot of things like buildings with like mass timber or wood frame, you know,
[09:00] SPEAKER_02: especially, say apartment buildings, especially.
[09:03] SPEAKER_02: So can you explain a little bit more about why building with what is a good example of some of the efforts they can go with?
[09:11] SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
[09:12] SPEAKER_00: And so mass timber has received a lot of attention and for good reason.
[09:18] SPEAKER_00: It's dramatically lower in terms of what's called its embodied carbon.
[09:23] SPEAKER_00: So this is how much carbon, how many greenhouse gas emissions were released in building that building that includes all the materials.
[09:31] SPEAKER_00: That includes, you know, on site emissions, all that type of stuff.
[09:36] SPEAKER_00: And so we are with mass timber, we're actually able to increase the market share for wood products in the building sector, which is obviously there's been a focus on single family detached homes, you know, lumber, etc.
[09:51] SPEAKER_00: And that's that would dominate that that low rise residential market with mass timber, we're able to shift into multi-unit residential buildings into commercial buildings.
[10:05] SPEAKER_00: And in doing so, if you shift from a steel or cement heavy building into one made of wood, you dramatically reduced the carbon footprint or the embodied emissions of that building.
[10:19] SPEAKER_00: And it continues to store that carbon in that wood over time.
[10:24] SPEAKER_00: Wood is about 50% carbon.
[10:27] SPEAKER_00: So if you think about it from that perspective, if you have a building that's 200, 300, 400 years old, that's carbon that was taken out of the atmosphere and stored for many centuries.
[10:39] SPEAKER_00: And where that tree used to be, several other trees have grown, been harvested.
[10:44] SPEAKER_00: And that's why it's such a renewable and sustainable resource for building.
[10:48] SPEAKER_02: And can you explain in regards to this building with what can you explain what the Canada Green Building Council net zero carbon building standard is?
[10:59] SPEAKER_02: It's a talk twister there that can explain what that is.
[11:04] SPEAKER_00: Absolutely. So a lot of developers are now are really trying to attain what it even goes beyond what people know is lead.
[11:13] SPEAKER_00: So this is a performance standard to have net zero buildings. And there's really two components to that.
[11:20] SPEAKER_00: One is the embodied carbon. So this is the carbon that was emitted producing the products to build the building, whether that deals some end to other plastic, it's all that type of thing.
[11:34] SPEAKER_00: And then, and then there's the operational side of thing.
[11:37] SPEAKER_00: And so the forest product sector can play a critical role in both.
[11:42] SPEAKER_00: One is in that embodied carbon. And so for the Canada Green Building Council, they've got a standard whereby new developer or developers of buildings can go and get this certification so show that they are providing leadership and basically making their buildings more attractive to potential tenants.
[12:02] SPEAKER_00: And the other is in the operation of the building and the get this is where bio heat and the use of wood fuels has a critical role to play.
[12:12] SPEAKER_00: I would note that they're actually very closely linked because when you produce lumber or mass timber or anything like that, you are taking a tree.
[12:23] SPEAKER_00: And when you're producing that solid wood product, a lot of residues are created.
[12:29] SPEAKER_00: So, you know, we have a cylindrical tree, there's tops, there's branches, all these types of things, and you're producing rectangular lumber or mass timber that inherently produces a lot of residues, which can be used to display fossil fuels in the operation of those building.
[12:47] SPEAKER_02: And can you talk a little bit about the cost involved in building with wood compared to building in other ways?
[12:57] SPEAKER_00: Absolutely. So we know that for a single family detached home, what is the way to go without a doubt that's the most affordable?
[13:04] SPEAKER_00: I would say there's an opportunity Canada to do more prefabrication, for instance, if you go to Sweden in over 90% of the buildings are prefabricated in a factory and that can actually lead to more affordable housing.
[13:16] SPEAKER_00: So that is a great opportunity, but we know that wood dominates that single family townhome type of market.
[13:25] SPEAKER_00: When we talk about higher-rise buildings, there's a key factor here is the lower or is the reduced labor requirements when you're building with mass timber because they're all prefabricated panels.
[13:38] SPEAKER_00: And there's been a recent McKinsey study that shows that Canada is actually the top in terms of the labor contribution to cost the building.
[13:49] SPEAKER_00: And that is because we don't use a lot of prefabrication, obviously we have a difficult building climate in the winter.
[13:56] SPEAKER_00: And so in order for us to get more affordable buildings, we need more prefabrication and wood when we're producing whether it's mass wood panels, something called cross laminated timber or glue lamb, which are essentially the posts if you will support beams, those can all be prefabricated rather than done with labor on site.
[14:19] SPEAKER_00: And so that has labor cost savings, but it also has speed of development, speed of construction saving, which are critical as well for your capital etc.
[14:31] SPEAKER_02: One last question regarding building with wood. And I'm just curious of what are some of the other benefits of building with wood, you know, beyond sort of the decarbonization aspect of it?
[14:47] SPEAKER_00: Well, it's beautiful. I mean, it actually there's been many studies have shown that it makes people feel better when they are looking at wood.
[14:56] SPEAKER_00: And so whether it's employees or customers that are coming to your place of business, inherently as humans, we feel better when we are looking at wood compared to hard surfaces.
[15:10] SPEAKER_00: And so it's more welcoming and it creates and basically better well-being if you will of your employees and customers.
[15:20] SPEAKER_00: So I would encourage everybody out there who has, you know, has their own building or their attendants to really consider how much wood you can use in your building to create a atmosphere that is welcoming to humans and makes them feel if you will at home and in comfort.
[15:40] SPEAKER_02: All right, super. Let's move on to another effort that can be used out in decarbonization and we're talking about thermal energy.
[15:49] SPEAKER_02: First of all, can you explain a little bit about what thermal energy is and how it can be used?
[15:55] SPEAKER_00: So thermal energy is kind of the technical term for heat. And so heat is really, if we want to talk about decarbonization and energy systems in Canada, we have to talk about heat because it's two thirds of Canada's energy consumption.
[16:12] SPEAKER_00: We spend all this time speaking about electricity, which is really important, but it's only 16% of our energy consumption.
[16:22] SPEAKER_00: What about the other 84%? And so we know that electricity is going to be an important contributor decarbonization, but you can't go from 16% to 100% on electricity.
[16:35] SPEAKER_00: So thermal energy, and so this is really two main sectors. This is buildings, heating buildings, and in industry.
[16:44] SPEAKER_00: So a typical home, 80% of the energy consumed by a typical home is heat, but space heating and hot water.
[16:53] SPEAKER_00: And then when we look at the industrial sector, it really depends on the type of industry, but on average, 80 to 85% of the energy consumed by industry is in the form of heat.
[17:06] SPEAKER_00: And so not all of that is going to be electrified. And so the forest product sector using low grade materials, materials that can't be turned into that high grade solid wood products using that material for either process heat in industry or in space heating is really the solution to decarbonization.
[17:28] SPEAKER_00: And we see that in Europe, for example, if you look at Europe and the obviously has been a leader in wind power and solar power, but 60% of the renewable energy in Europe is bioenergy.
[17:41] SPEAKER_00: And most of that is in the form of heat. Canada is actually one of the only and one of the things to consider in Canada is the differences between the provinces.
[17:50] SPEAKER_00: So in quite a few provinces, bioenergy dominates the amount of renewable energy. That's not necessarily true in Quebec. It's not true in Natatowals, not true in British Columbia because they have very, very large hydro power resources relative to their population.
[18:08] SPEAKER_00: However, all the other provinces, bioenergy is really the dominant form of renewable energy. And that's important to recognize when we talk about decarbonization and the energy transition.
[18:21] SPEAKER_02: Are there eventual savings in adopting this?
[18:25] SPEAKER_00: Absolutely. So I mean, when you talk about what can be competitive with whether it's natural gas or whether I live on the East Coast. So a lot of heating oil is still consumed here or propane or in some cases coal biomass and low grade wood materials can be used as a direct replacement in a lot of those application.
[18:50] SPEAKER_00: Often times you do need different infrastructure, for example, a way of distributing heat in that's quite prevalent in Europe and is growing rapidly in Canada is called the district heating system or district energy system.
[19:05] SPEAKER_00: And for instance, downtown Toronto is heated with a district energy system downtown Vancouver, a lot of university campuses and this is essentially hot water pipes that connect multiple buildings to a central heating plant because we're not going to be delivering wood chips to every skyscraper in downtown Toronto or downtown Vancouver or Montreal.
[19:25] SPEAKER_00: But we can have a central plant and use that central plant to provide heat to hundreds thousands or even tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of buildings.
[19:36] SPEAKER_00: And this is how cities like Stockholm, Copenhagen, etc. are other Nordic cities are heating all their buildings from central biomass heating plant.
[19:47] SPEAKER_00: And this has two benefits one is obviously decarbonization and these cities Copenhagen Stockholm are leading the world in decarbonization because of their wood fired downtown.
[19:59] SPEAKER_00: And so this is a very important issue for us to be able to provide heat plants, but also it provides a market for this low grade material that allows us to manage our forests better and it allows us to manage our forests so that we're reducing wildfire risk and we are reducing pest infestations and allowing for more sustainable healthy forest.
[20:21] SPEAKER_02: So what are governments saying about this area and this thermal energy and its potential?
[20:28] SPEAKER_00: Well, it's it's absolutely a key topic in terms of how are we going to decarbonize it is the biggest challenge in in Canada in terms of decarbonization because we know that electric vehicles are rapidly growing in the transportation sector emissions particularly in light duty are going to be decreased.
[20:45] SPEAKER_00: And Canada really varies from from province to province, but on average has a pretty low carbon intensity electricity grid.
[20:55] SPEAKER_00: So really decarbonization is in Canada is really about thermal energy it's about decarbonizing industry, industrial heat and it's about decarbonizing building heat.
[21:06] SPEAKER_00: And so the government of Canada has supported many projects of you will switching to biomass and and and then it's really quite complimentary to other decarbonization options, you know, wind solar as we all know when it's not sunny, it's not windy, you need energy and that's really where biomass has a real strength and real complementarity to those other resources.
[21:31] SPEAKER_00: Because it is dispatchable that means you can turn it on when you need it because really what is what is what is what is this you know what is by us it is stored solar energy.
[21:44] SPEAKER_00: It is a battery into itself and so that's really a critical component obviously we've seen a heard a lot about from the federal government and other governments about improving forest management, increasing the number of trees through planting, which are important to us.
[22:01] SPEAKER_00: But I would also point out that Canada already has 318 billion trees and that we have about 8500 trees per person in Canada and we need we need to place our focus on better managing those forest resources in a changing climate and that will be by far the largest impact that we can have globally from a climate perspective.
[22:30] SPEAKER_02: Okay and one last thing on the thermal energy front are there incentives out there for businesses to undertake these types of initiatives.
[22:41] SPEAKER_00: There are and really a lot of it depends upon the province for instance there's something called the investing in Canada infrastructure program so this is a infrastructure based program that supports.
[22:55] SPEAKER_00: There's a green stream in there that allows provinces to decide how they want to decarbonize and to reduce emissions and then the federal and provincial government provide funding some of that goes to municipalities some of it goes to not for profits and some of it can go to business.
[23:14] SPEAKER_00: There is also if you want to look at an example for Prince Edward Island as an example there are kind of national leaders if you will in bio heat in this thermal energy and if you're in Prince Edward Island pretty much every school or hospital outside of Charlottetown is heated with wood chips.
[23:37] SPEAKER_00: They've switched fuel switch those facilities from heating oil to wood chips and they've they've worked with the private sector to be able to do this because as a provincial government is a building owner they didn't really want to operate a bunch of wood chip heating plants and so they got they basically said we want to buy heat.
[24:00] SPEAKER_00: Please private sector you'll give us proposals will will commit to buy it for 20 years we know that this school will be in here in 20 years and we need 20 years of heat.
[24:10] SPEAKER_00: We will buy that heat private sector you can finance develop operate and maintain these facilities and sell us heat so it's it there's different models of how to do it but certainly any building owner could look at that type of a model that heat is a service model.
[24:27] SPEAKER_00: But oftentimes building owners also have to work with their municipalities and figure out how can we work together to potentially if I'm in an urban area develop a district energy system how can we encourage that within our community.
[24:44] SPEAKER_02: Jamie let's talk a little bit about bio energy carbon capture and storage what is that and and well how is this important in reducing the carbon footprint.
[24:55] SPEAKER_00: So maybe I'll break it into those two components the first is bio energy so this is what we've already been talking about this is turning biomass whether it's from forestry or agriculture or even waste into energy and utilizing that for industry or for or for building.
[25:12] SPEAKER_00: The other is carbon capture and storage and this is basically capturing the carbon dioxide emissions that are produced when you combust the fuel when you burn a fuel and putting them underground permanently so storing that carbon dioxide underground and so Canada already has several carbon capture and storage projects there's one and Saskatchewan and there's two in Alberta and these ones are all based upon fossil fuel CO2 emissions.
[25:41] SPEAKER_00: So they're burning fossil fuels whether it's coal and Saskatchewan or natural gas in Alberta and putting that underground thereby reducing the emissions from those facilities.
[25:53] SPEAKER_00: But if you combine the two bio energy and carbon capture and storage what you're taking essentially if you step back and think about it is a tree is growing by by taking carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere right so it's growing it's reducing the greenhouse gas emissions in the atmosphere by growing and storing that in the form of wood and then if we use that for energy.
[26:18] SPEAKER_00: We're generally we're releasing that CO2 but if instead of it going to the atmosphere we put it underground we've actually taken carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere and put it back in the ground permanently so this is the primary way of actually reducing emissions in the atmosphere that are already there and so this is what we call negative emissions or permanent removals.
[26:44] SPEAKER_00: So who's adopting this? So there's a number of countries in Europe that are pursuing carabets was this bio energy carbon capture and storage actually one of them is using wood from Canada in the form of wood pellets supplied to a power plant in the United Kingdom and they are planning to add carbon capture and storage to this existing bio energy plant.
[27:11] SPEAKER_00: And I just want to put it in terms of the scale so this one plant in the UK would have negative emissions so permanent atmospheric removals of 12 million tons per year.
[27:25] SPEAKER_00: So this is on the same order of magnitude at a single plant in the UK using Canadian wood pellets as all the emissions of new Brentswick.
[27:35] SPEAKER_00: So you're these are removals from the atmosphere that are reducing emissions globally using Canadian wood pellets and I will have like what I can say is that there are there is great interest in Canada in pursuing backs.
[27:51] SPEAKER_00: We have very attractive geology in Alberta and in Saskatchewan and this is really relevant for a lot of your listeners because as you look to try to decar as they look to try to decarbonize their operations.
[28:05] SPEAKER_00: One of the ways to do that is to try to if you can't do something internally is to buy removals right by these offsets but these are not offsets of I planted a tree or I you know I did a different practice.
[28:19] SPEAKER_00: So I just these are actually permanent removals from the atmosphere and so this is important for not only smaller companies but also corporate buyers who have limited options for decarbonization think about things like airline.
[28:33] SPEAKER_00: Yeah I'm very expensive for them to fuel switch and they have very limited options so permanent removals is a way for them to reduce their emissions in an affordable way and to continue to provide the services that we all depend upon.
[28:50] SPEAKER_02: When it comes to decarbonization you know what are businesses currently looking at when it comes to government policies and regulations.
[29:00] SPEAKER_00: So obviously one of the things that is really front and center for a lot of businesses is what is my energy prices and we know that the carbon levy and it's influenced it's slightly different and different provinces but that is impacting companies and how much their energy cost and in you know in a way via the market encouraging them to try to fuel switch.
[29:23] SPEAKER_00: That is really front and center some of the larger emitters they are subject to a whole host of other regulations which they have to work through over time for instance there's a kind of a missions trading scheme there is something called the clean fuel regulations which applies to transportation fuels that will also impact the price of fuels for consumers.
[29:48] SPEAKER_00: So I think for most of your listeners it's going to be you know it's going to be show up most in terms of the cost of fuels and this is why we're really focused on a lot of thermal energy and a lot of bio heat options because when you are doing bio heat you don't have to pay that carbon levy.
[30:08] SPEAKER_00: And so for instance $170 a ton which is what we anticipate the carbon price to be in Canada by 2030 some of your listeners might be very surprised to know that that is essentially a doubling of the natural gas price in Ontario.
[30:25] SPEAKER_00: It's more than a doubling of the natural gas price at a residential level in Alberta and Saskatchewan so it will have a profound impact on people's energy consumption and what types of energy they want to consume.
[30:40] SPEAKER_00: While there will be some electrification really if you want the same performance and the same cost competitiveness it's important to consider looking at biomass whether that's wood pellets or wood chips those are really the dominant fuels in this space.
[30:57] SPEAKER_02: Is there a sense of urgency right now in all of this Jamie and how do you respond to those I guess naysayers out there that don't believe we have a crisis on our hands when it comes to climate.
[31:13] SPEAKER_00: Well I think it's about this is a this is a very very large challenge it is something that is not going to happen overnight I actually get a little concern when we when people start talking about climate emergencies because it means that they're having a hard time fully understanding the energy system it is going to take decades and decades to transition the energy system away from fossil fuels.
[31:41] SPEAKER_00: And we have to do so in a way that recognizes the affordability of energy the importance of energy to our lives and that we need reliable and dispatchable energy to meet our needs.
[31:56] SPEAKER_00: These are just fundamental things that I don't think you know when you when you don't have enough energy you're not going to be people people need to keep their homes they need to get to work.
[32:07] SPEAKER_00: And so we have to be recognized you know cognizant of that and to recognize that solutions have to be realistic so it has to be something that also the responsibility doesn't just fall on the shoulders of individual consumer.
[32:26] SPEAKER_00: This is you know we do a lot of work for the federal and provincial governments we also do a lot of work with municipalities and really a lot of it has to do with the government's getting infrastructure in place that allows people to transition rather than saying hey we're you know we're going to increase the price of carbon and we're going to put that on your shoulders.
[32:47] SPEAKER_00: There is a responsibility that if the government obviously put in place by the voters but if that they have not only say we don't want this they also have to enable a solution that is realistic and that's what I think has been lacking quite a lot in a lot of the climate change discourse in Canada.
[33:09] SPEAKER_00: So for instance you know why is it that municipalities aren't developing this repeating system so that all building owners can connect why is it we are putting the responsibility on building owners and residents and homeowners to figure out the carbon equation themselves that's a very difficult thing to do there's different carbon intensities and it is quite a numbers game a complex game and it's a very difficult thing to do.
[33:39] SPEAKER_00: It differs from jurisdiction to jurisdiction it is not simple and this is where your listeners can really try to encourage their local municipalities take some leadership to provide those solutions instead of just saying well you need to decarbonize homeowners or building owners and to put in those that infrastructure in place to allow them to decarbonize.
[34:04] SPEAKER_00: It's like saying well we want everybody to have an electric vehicle but without having any charging station.
[34:11] SPEAKER_02: Yeah what about consumers like how are they responding to this and are they willing to to pay the little extra that may be out there and helping everybody reduce their carbon footprint.
[34:26] SPEAKER_00: I think it's everybody has their own day to day concerns and I think everybody wants to do the quote unquote the right right thing but it does you know there's certain choices that the people can make individually but then there are other things that we as a society and governments need to do to enable this transition.
[34:48] SPEAKER_00: And so you know I encourage people to use wood products whenever possible to build with wood and to consider the role that you know particularly if you're in a more rural area the wood role that wood can play in eating your home for example in in heating your commercial building.
[35:08] SPEAKER_00: You know things like wood pellets fuel switching to wood pellets or even if you're building a new home focusing on a wood pellet boiler instead of going with propane or heating oil.
[35:20] SPEAKER_00: Those are those are some solutions that the individual consumer can take and really you know saying okay well maybe instead of.
[35:31] SPEAKER_00: I want to focus on the carbon footprint of my home etc and the forest product sector is really well positioned to provide that those solid wood products for building with for utilizing biological based materials and products you know obviously we're seeing things like you know straws etc.
[35:54] Speaker UNKNOWN: And so that's what I want to say is that the
[35:54] Speaker UNKNOWN: 
[35:54] SPEAKER_00: natural and produced from paper and quite frankly being supportive and trying to understand the role of the forestry sector we do see the forestry sector demonized a lot unnecessarily.
[36:07] SPEAKER_00: I would say I would say and so it's really critical to understand that Canada is a world leader in sustainable forest management almost 40% of the world certified sustainable forests are in Canada.
[36:22] SPEAKER_00: And it is also our primary responsibility but it also means that protection of forests if you will just leaving them alone isn't going to work.
[36:33] SPEAKER_00: We have to recognize that Canada does have a very small percentage of the greenhouse gas emissions in the world and that but our forests are going to be subject to all the emissions in the world whether they come from China or the US or.
[36:46] SPEAKER_00: Or any other country and that we are going to see significant disturbance in our forest if particularly if we don't do anything about it and so actively managing those forests trying to adapt them to a changing climate actually means harvesting some timber and it means using more wood products provide a market for that low grade material that's extreme fire risk.
[37:13] SPEAKER_00: So this has things implications for air quality with wildfires and you know simply the the vitality of our ecosystems actually depends upon the forestry sector harvesting timber.
[37:27] SPEAKER_02: And Jamie I want to talk a little bit about entrepreneurs and the role they have in in reducing the carbon footprint but especially from the angle of you know if you're small maybe have limited resources.
[37:41] SPEAKER_02: How do you as an entrepreneur you know go about you know doing the right thing in the sense of contributing to this this effort.
[37:54] SPEAKER_00: So I think there's there's things that you as an entrepreneur that you can do within your own business in terms of procuring with wood so as we've talked about if you if you're if you're designing a new office you can really say okay wood first we want to really emphasize how much wood is included in this we know that that storing carbon we're proud of having wood floors of wood counter tops of wood cabinets because we know that we've taken carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere by buying this product.
[38:22] SPEAKER_00: So that's the first thing I would also say encourage a lot of people to really try to understand the forest product sector it's you know we we have a lot of rhetoric within our society about never cutting down a tree but let's look around us we are living in wood houses we are using toilet paper we are writing on paper.
[38:45] SPEAKER_00: I think it's important that people don't feel guilty about that it just like many things in life you can do it really you know forestry and force management you can do it very well or you can do it very poorly in Canada we actually do it very very well compared to every other country we could do a lot more active management to reduce that wildfire risk.
[39:07] SPEAKER_00: But in terms of the overall longevity and sustainability we do do quite well and so entrepreneurs should really try to do that you know take that wood first approach the carbon storage there's other things that you know you if you want to talk about broader decarbonization that the entrepreneurs can do you know encouraging offices where people can bite the office that obviously reduces transportation emissions.
[39:33] SPEAKER_00: But because a lot of entrepreneurs or leaders in our society I think it's about having that realistic conversation about the role of forests and wood products in our society and their importance we're not going to get away from them because the reality is is if you're not using wood you can't sit on electricity so if you're not using wood for chairs if you're not using wood for buildings the alternatives essentially our steel cement or plastic.
[40:01] SPEAKER_00: And all of those are dramatically higher in carbon emissions than wood yeah so we let's not kid ourselves that we need to use materials and Canada has a world's class competitive advantage in our forest products and our forest that we are really only touching the tip of in terms of what we could actually do and provide to the world.
[40:24] SPEAKER_02: Okay last question I have for Jamie fascinating conversation I've learned a heck of a lot.
[40:34] SPEAKER_02: But what are you know you did kind of touch on it just before but what are some of the other practical steps businesses can take to achieve a more sustainable practice in their operation.
[40:46] SPEAKER_00: So if you look at a business and where their emissions are coming from if you're a commercial business a lot of it has to do with your building.
[40:56] SPEAKER_00: So this is about how you're heating your buildings and if you want to do something today without huge costs or anything you can feel switch and if you're in an urban area really the way to do that is with wood pellets it's a more compact fuel and we see this in urban areas in Europe I mean if they can do it we can do it too.
[41:18] SPEAKER_00: Disconnecting from the natural gas grid that's what they're doing in other European in European countries if we want to decarbonize our buildings we can't continue to use the that same energy resource I understand it's convenient to understand historically it's been low cost but if you actually committed to decarbonization you actually have to cut the core I mean this is you know with the natural gas grid and to fuel switch to something sustainable so that's that's number that's number one.
[41:45] SPEAKER_00: And that's where a lot of commercial building or that's where a lot of emissions for commercial companies are from come from and then you know in terms of playing a role in your in your community and really encouraging development of low carbon infrastructure namely district energy systems.
[42:07] SPEAKER_00: And that's where you can connect multiple buildings to a central energy resource and that benefits everybody because the operating costs are lower instead of having a furnace or boiler in your basement you've got a heat exchanger this is basically way less maintenance and so anytime you can do that as you know and that's a key thing that business can do industrially if you're producing industrial products and you have a thermal energy demand that's also something that I'm going to do.
[42:37] SPEAKER_00: You can fuel switch to for biomass and it's really the proven approach to decarbonize heavy and just heavy and light industry.
[42:45] SPEAKER_02: All right super thank you Jamie for joining us today as I mentioned fascinating conversation lots of insight and information there for everyone thanks again.
[42:56] SPEAKER_00: Thank you very much for having me Mary I'm greatly enjoyed it and I hope your listeners have gotten something out of it.
[43:04] SPEAKER_02: All right super that was doctor Jamie Steven who is managing director of port light bio resources I'm Mario Tonaguzzi this has been Canada's podcast thanks for joining us today.