David Lucatch, Co-Founder and Director of Kabn Systems Discusses His Long Entrepreneurial Career and Provides Some Great Insights

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[00:00] SPEAKER_01: This podcast is sponsored by eBay Canada.
[00:02] SPEAKER_01: eBay Canada is here to help.
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[00:26] SPEAKER_00: It's Toronto's podcast on the Canada's podcast network.
[00:30] SPEAKER_01: Hi everyone, I'm Phil Bliss, a business visionary
[00:33] SPEAKER_01: and welcome to Toronto's podcast.
[00:35] SPEAKER_01: Part of the Canada's podcast network, your source of the great insights
[00:39] SPEAKER_01: from entrepreneurs across Canada.
[00:42] SPEAKER_01: Today we're going to meet up with David Lukach,
[00:45] SPEAKER_01: co-founder and director of Cabin Network.
[00:48] SPEAKER_01: David has a long entrepreneurial career and should provide us some great insights.
[00:54] SPEAKER_01: So welcome to Canada's podcast.
[00:56] SPEAKER_01: Let's do the first question which I do with everyone.
[00:59] SPEAKER_01: Tell us a little bit about yourself.
[01:01] SPEAKER_01: What you do, that kind of two to five minute
[01:05] SPEAKER_01: where you are today and how you got here.
[01:07] SPEAKER_00: Wow, thanks Phil.
[01:09] SPEAKER_00: A great to be here.
[01:10] SPEAKER_00: It's a big question because I've been around a long time.
[01:14] SPEAKER_00: So I started my career really in university as an entrepreneur.
[01:18] SPEAKER_00: I wanted to do something in the tennis stringing business
[01:22] SPEAKER_00: and I went to my mom's boss and I said,
[01:24] SPEAKER_00: look, we're looking at doing this.
[01:26] SPEAKER_00: He says, no, why don't you just do the printing industry?
[01:29] SPEAKER_00: I went to the printing industry.
[01:30] SPEAKER_00: I actually started in business school doing printing on a part-time basis.
[01:35] SPEAKER_00: And when I left university,
[01:38] SPEAKER_00: formed my own marketing agency that did vectorization of graphics.
[01:41] SPEAKER_00: And we're talking in the 1980s where...
[01:44] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I was that.
[01:47] SPEAKER_00: Vectorization of graphics.
[01:48] SPEAKER_00: And actually we did the first vectorization of the Apple logo.
[01:51] SPEAKER_00: And the vectorization of the remax balloon.
[01:54] SPEAKER_00: So it was really cool.
[01:55] SPEAKER_00: And then in the mid-90s, I saw this thing called the internet coming up.
[01:59] SPEAKER_00: And I said, wow, that would be really cool to get involved.
[02:02] SPEAKER_00: And my wife was involved in her business and she took it over.
[02:08] SPEAKER_00: And I said, I'm going into a new career.
[02:10] SPEAKER_00: I'm going to build Canada's first internet mall.
[02:13] SPEAKER_00: And she said, well, that's cool.
[02:14] SPEAKER_00: And I went off to do that.
[02:16] SPEAKER_00: And quickly found out in the mid-90s that nobody could spend any money online.
[02:20] SPEAKER_00: Because both these and master cards.
[02:23] SPEAKER_01: I bought the...
[02:24] SPEAKER_01: I bought the mall in 1998.
[02:27] SPEAKER_00: There you go.
[02:28] SPEAKER_00: And I'll go back to the mall.
[02:30] SPEAKER_00: Because it's interesting.
[02:31] SPEAKER_00: So we went to these and master cards.
[02:33] SPEAKER_00: Who at the time were separate.
[02:35] SPEAKER_00: A bank in Canada was subject to what's called the duality rule.
[02:39] SPEAKER_00: And couldn't issue both the visa and a master card.
[02:41] SPEAKER_00: We went to Visa through Scotiabank.
[02:43] SPEAKER_00: And we went to master card through Citibank Canada.
[02:46] SPEAKER_00: And we actually developed my first company,
[02:48] SPEAKER_00: developed the e-commerce payment gateways to allow Canadians to use credit cards online.
[02:54] SPEAKER_00: And that involved the NSA and the US, an export of particular technology.
[02:59] SPEAKER_00: And we worked with the banks.
[03:00] SPEAKER_00: We worked with a company called First Data Corporation, NCR.
[03:04] SPEAKER_00: And we built these gateways.
[03:06] SPEAKER_00: Was my first company that took public and knew nothing about stocks.
[03:09] SPEAKER_00: My family never bought stocks.
[03:11] SPEAKER_00: And started my public career and that.
[03:13] SPEAKER_00: Left that in 2000, moved on to other gigs.
[03:15] SPEAKER_00: Did some charity gigs, helped out doing all of the stuff.
[03:19] SPEAKER_00: Built one of Canada's first incubators.
[03:21] SPEAKER_00: Built one of Canada's first multi-language social networks.
[03:25] SPEAKER_00: And then went back to do things the way I want to do them after leaving all my public companies.
[03:30] SPEAKER_00: And created a blockchain consultancy and compliance and liquidity.
[03:36] SPEAKER_00: And cabin was born.
[03:38] SPEAKER_00: And cabin really is a company that does verification,
[03:42] SPEAKER_00: management, and monetization of digital identity.
[03:44] SPEAKER_00: And that's how we got here.
[03:47] SPEAKER_01: Perfect. That's a great story.
[03:50] SPEAKER_01: So, you've been an entrepreneur pretty much all your working career then.
[03:55] SPEAKER_01: Is that because you kind of wired differently?
[03:57] SPEAKER_01: Like me, you know, you had a good education, did that, did that, did that.
[04:01] SPEAKER_01: You know, I worked for GM for four years and then left and decided I didn't want to do that.
[04:07] SPEAKER_01: Why entrepreneurship?
[04:09] SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's a pretty risky business.
[04:11] SPEAKER_00: I think it was a foolish intent because when I decided to go to business for myself,
[04:16] SPEAKER_00: I had $2,000 saved in starting my business with $2,000.
[04:19] SPEAKER_00: And I've often, I've mentioned at the University of Toronto and I've often told young students
[04:27] SPEAKER_00: that one of the best things they could do is probably do what you did.
[04:30] SPEAKER_00: Go out and get a second education from a major corporation.
[04:35] SPEAKER_00: Learn a little bit before you became an entrepreneur.
[04:36] SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's been, you know, if it was a Disney ride, it would be Mr. Toads Wild Ride, right?
[04:42] SPEAKER_00: It's been both amazing highs and dramatic lows.
[04:47] SPEAKER_00: But at the end of the day, I don't know my family were entrepreneurs.
[04:52] SPEAKER_00: So, I think I started down this path, found that I loved working with certain people
[04:59] SPEAKER_00: and creating new ideas and really not just becoming my own boss,
[05:04] SPEAKER_00: but working with great teams and assembling great teams.
[05:07] SPEAKER_00: And I'm fortunate today in the latter part of my career, I think, is to assemble an amazing team.
[05:14] SPEAKER_00: And it's all about the people you surround yourself with.
[05:17] SPEAKER_00: So an entrepreneur does not stand alone in a forest.
[05:20] SPEAKER_00: They really are surrounded by great people.
[05:22] SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
[05:23] SPEAKER_01: Just in terms of that, I mean, you've been in Toronto,
[05:28] SPEAKER_01: you know, it's been your hub kind of thing.
[05:30] SPEAKER_01: Obviously you've done business international.
[05:32] SPEAKER_01: But you could have gone anywhere.
[05:34] SPEAKER_01: Why here?
[05:35] SPEAKER_00: Well, it's interesting.
[05:36] SPEAKER_00: As a Canadian, I'm a very proud Canadian.
[05:38] SPEAKER_00: I mean, I've spent a lot of time south of the border working with
[05:43] SPEAKER_00: in the entertainment industry and the television industry, creating certain technologies
[05:48] SPEAKER_00: and overseas, both in Asia and in Europe.
[05:52] SPEAKER_00: But we're very fortunate as Canadians.
[05:55] SPEAKER_00: Growing up Canadian gives you a very unique perspective.
[05:58] SPEAKER_00: Number one, we're our trading partners to the south,
[06:02] SPEAKER_00: our arguably or the large consumer economy in the world, in terms of dollar volume.
[06:10] SPEAKER_00: I mean, China's
[06:11] SPEAKER_00: based on population.
[06:15] SPEAKER_00: And Canadians are regarded wonderfully around the world.
[06:18] SPEAKER_00: So I've been in Beijing in meetings where there's five of us in a room.
[06:23] SPEAKER_00: Two of us traveled there.
[06:24] SPEAKER_00: Three lived there and all five are Canadians.
[06:27] SPEAKER_00: So it's really a remarkable situation.
[06:30] SPEAKER_00: I think as Canadians, we have a very global perspective because we are a very small population
[06:35] SPEAKER_00: in a very large country.
[06:38] SPEAKER_00: Home is home.
[06:39] SPEAKER_00: I love home.
[06:40] SPEAKER_00: I love New York.
[06:41] SPEAKER_00: I love London.
[06:42] SPEAKER_00: I love Shanghai.
[06:44] SPEAKER_00: But home is home.
[06:46] SPEAKER_00: And Toronto is my home in Canada.
[06:47] SPEAKER_00: It's my country.
[06:48] SPEAKER_01: What's the best thing that you've found out about being entrepreneur?
[06:52] SPEAKER_00: I guess is the exileration of people saying, I love what you're doing.
[06:59] SPEAKER_00: I recognize your company.
[07:01] SPEAKER_00: You know, when my daughter who's a young adult now, her friends say, wow, I've heard of your company.
[07:07] SPEAKER_00: And I think what you're doing is really cool.
[07:09] SPEAKER_00: That is really special.
[07:11] SPEAKER_00: I mean, having had the opportunity to do so many remarkable things,
[07:16] SPEAKER_00: it's just a meet remarkable people.
[07:18] SPEAKER_00: You know, people in government and people in entertainment.
[07:22] SPEAKER_00: It's been something I never would have imagined.
[07:25] SPEAKER_00: But the ability to interact with people on a level that I've created is,
[07:31] SPEAKER_00: and my teams have created is just outstanding.
[07:35] SPEAKER_01: I mean, it was carbon in the moment.
[07:37] SPEAKER_01: Just a little bit of that.
[07:39] SPEAKER_01: What are you most excited about in that business today?
[07:43] SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, I've always tried for what I call universality.
[07:46] SPEAKER_00: And every business tries to create the largest addressable market for their business.
[07:52] SPEAKER_00: If you're a car company, you have multiple allotments of cars that reach a large population.
[07:58] SPEAKER_00: Would I sort of envision an un-the-visionary for our company?
[08:02] SPEAKER_00: I design a lot of products.
[08:04] SPEAKER_00: I do not write code, but I design a lot of technology products.
[08:07] SPEAKER_00: And what we're doing today with digital identity, we believe, is addressable to 100% of the online market.
[08:14] SPEAKER_00: So when you think about the online market today, the first thing that comes to mind for
[08:18] SPEAKER_00: addressability to 100% of the market would be search. Everyone uses search.
[08:23] SPEAKER_00: The second thing you think of is, well, communications and alump those all together,
[08:26] SPEAKER_00: because everybody does email or WhatsApp or Facebook Messenger, we do some kind of communication online.
[08:32] SPEAKER_00: The third we believe is digital identity because we're all individuals online.
[08:36] SPEAKER_00: And at some point in time, whether it's education, whether it's purchasing something, whether it's
[08:42] SPEAKER_00: voting, you will have to prove who you are. And our technologies are built for consumers
[08:49] SPEAKER_00: to own and manage their identity because our philosophical belief is that ownership of digital
[08:54] SPEAKER_00: identity is a basic human right. So what excites me, what gets me up in the morning is the fact that
[09:00] SPEAKER_00: we're building something that is addressable and could be beneficial to the entire human population.
[09:06] SPEAKER_01: This podcast is sponsored by eBay Canada.
[09:08] SPEAKER_01: eBay Canada is powering Canadian small businesses. Go to ebay.ca, slash up and running,
[09:15] SPEAKER_01: to open your online shop. So what are the top three things on your bucket list or vision board?
[09:22] SPEAKER_01: I think it can be business things, it can be personal things. I don't like to define it.
[09:26] SPEAKER_01: I'm just, I was finding it interesting.
[09:29] SPEAKER_00: Well, I'll tell you some unique things about me. So I've done a couple of them already.
[09:33] SPEAKER_00: I'm part of a team that has a Guinness World Record. I've been nominated for a New York
[09:39] SPEAKER_00: Emmy for television. I've done some remarkable things and met some remarkable people. And
[09:43] SPEAKER_00: right now, you know, I don't really live with a bucket list. It's really weird because
[09:47] SPEAKER_00: I find that as I maneuver through life, I get these really unique opportunities.
[09:52] SPEAKER_00: And I'm a big comic book collector and comic book fan. And I have been since a child.
[09:57] SPEAKER_00: And we just announced today something in the comic book industry, which is just exciting.
[10:01] SPEAKER_00: But I got to become friends with Stanley. I would have never imagined that. And he was
[10:06] SPEAKER_00: a marketing. I mean, I was doing work with Disney. And I had an opportunity to get a personal
[10:11] SPEAKER_00: tour of Tony Stark's apartment for one of the Avengers movies. And Chris Hemsworth Thor gave me
[10:18] SPEAKER_00: the tour on a one-to-one basis. So we've done a lot of really remarkable things. And this is
[10:24] SPEAKER_00: a very personal item. But before my father-in-law passed a number of years ago who was a huge
[10:29] SPEAKER_00: baseball fan and I wasn't, I was able to call up in his final year and get him seats behind
[10:36] SPEAKER_00: home plate, 20 rows behind home plate at one of the World Series games. So it's now for me about
[10:43] SPEAKER_00: what can I do that help to help others? And that's very altruistic. But I think it is really where
[10:50] SPEAKER_00: we're going today. I think it becomes experiential. So my bucket list, I can't really define. I've
[10:59] SPEAKER_01: won I think for people listening. You faced unexpected challenges. How do you typically handle it?
[11:07] SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm currently 5 foot 465 centimeters. I like to say when I got into my own business,
[11:15] SPEAKER_00: I was a foot taller and I've been hit over the head. You know, my family is my strength. A lot of
[11:20] SPEAKER_00: people say that, but I'm very fortunate. But I don't know where I've got it because I can't say I
[11:26] SPEAKER_00: got it for my family. But I, you know, my gaming handle is bulldog because I am tenacious. And
[11:32] SPEAKER_00: and it's not about having a know. It's it's working with others to find the yes. There are times
[11:39] SPEAKER_00: and there have been times where things are very, very dark. But I think if you're honest with people
[11:44] SPEAKER_00: and you you you you fess up to the fact that you've got a problem and can you help me find ways
[11:50] SPEAKER_00: to navigate this, you'll find that that you'll good people will help you in good ways. They
[11:57] SPEAKER_00: they may not write a check, but they might give you an entrain to somebody who will help you get to
[12:02] SPEAKER_01: your goal, making helping someone else run a check. Same same kind of idea, but you know, based on what
[12:10] SPEAKER_01: you know now, you know, what would you say to someone starting their business? You know,
[12:16] SPEAKER_00: is there two or three things that you mustn't forget? Well, a couple. One, again, if if you could spend
[12:24] SPEAKER_00: a couple of years learning your craft through someone else, it's probably a very good education. You'll
[12:29] SPEAKER_00: get you'll get a vast wonderful education to do that in one of the first people I mentioned at
[12:35] SPEAKER_00: the University of Toronto ended up doing that in recent now a very, very successful entrepreneur in
[12:40] SPEAKER_00: and I couldn't be proud of him. The other thing is is I said this in an interview when I was 25
[12:46] SPEAKER_00: years old at a good entrepreneur, surrounds themselves with people who know more than they do
[12:51] SPEAKER_00: and draws on those talents. Find family, find friends, find associates, find people who would be
[12:58] SPEAKER_00: willing to mentor you and it doesn't matter what age you are. I still get mature today in my
[13:03] SPEAKER_00: late 50s by people who know more than I do about certain technologies, certain business ideas and
[13:09] SPEAKER_00: you know, don't stop learning. It doesn't have to be a formal education, but just don't stop learning.
[13:15] SPEAKER_01: So, I mean, with that side, this is more specific than you and I have gone through the same kind of
[13:22] SPEAKER_01: thing and I know that I received a couple of pieces of advice that I've carried around you
[13:27] SPEAKER_01: that I keep them in my pocket. So, it's the best piece of advice that you've ever received,
[13:32] SPEAKER_01: just that kind of thing where you, it's always kind of there. I can tell you this first hand. So,
[13:37] SPEAKER_00: I did a lot of work between my internet stance, doing fundraising for charities and
[13:42] SPEAKER_00: I helped design programs that raised millions of dollars in Canada, the US and even overseas for
[13:47] SPEAKER_00: charity. And in 2002, as a thank you from the police organization, the US, I got an opportunity
[13:55] SPEAKER_00: to meet Rudolph Giuliani. Just as he was finishing his internship and it was a personal one-on-one
[14:01] SPEAKER_00: for myself and my wife and I just read his book on leadership and he kindly said you should have
[14:06] SPEAKER_00: brought it with me. I would have autographed it and that was kind of him. But I asked him a single
[14:10] SPEAKER_00: question, what makes a good leader in your opinion, only one question. And he said make a decision.
[14:18] SPEAKER_00: You always have the opportunity to change your mind. You can do things differently down the road,
[14:24] SPEAKER_00: but you won't get anywhere if you don't make a decision. And I took that to heart because here's
[14:29] SPEAKER_00: a gentleman during the crisis of 9-11 had to put his friends in harm's way and some of them were
[14:36] SPEAKER_00: if you read the books, some of them were actually killed. So I've always learned that I will make a
[14:41] SPEAKER_00: decision. It doesn't have to be steadfast. It can be one that is let's make a decision for today to
[14:47] SPEAKER_00: go down this path and we hit a juncture, maybe we'll change direction. But I would advise everyone
[14:52] SPEAKER_00: that the best thing they could do in life is to not stand still but to make a decision.
[14:58] SPEAKER_01: Good way of putting it. So we're going to move into what I tell kind of fairly rapid-fire questions,
[15:02] SPEAKER_01: the way that too long about them. If you weren't doing what you were doing now,
[15:07] SPEAKER_01: what would you be doing instead? My dad drove a cab, maybe driving a cab, I don't know.
[15:14] SPEAKER_01: Maybe a teacher. Well, bookie, currently reading. I'm not reading anything at the moment I have
[15:21] SPEAKER_01: at time. Okay, what book would you recommend or book would you recommend to the audience that
[15:27] SPEAKER_01: really had a bit like the advice that's had an effect on you? You know, the Google
[15:34] SPEAKER_00: way was it was really good because it gave me an understanding of what Google has done right and
[15:37] SPEAKER_01: what they've done wrong. Are you a morning or a night person? Yes.
[15:44] SPEAKER_00: Yes. One of my consultants thinks I'm a vampire because I don't really sleep. I go to bed and
[15:51] SPEAKER_00: so usually I start around seven in the morning and I finish usually at midnight. I like to
[15:57] SPEAKER_00: let's turn off my phone around 10 but I think I need BIM both. I love going traveling to the West
[16:03] SPEAKER_00: Coast from Toronto because I get 27 hour days for the first day. If you had to pick one word to
[16:09] SPEAKER_01: describe yourself, what would it be and why? Tenacious. That's a common description. I just do not give up.
[16:16] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that goes for a lot of this to be honest. Let's keep you up at night.
[16:23] SPEAKER_00: Well, we've just taken cabin North America public so there's always the indigestion of taking a company
[16:28] SPEAKER_00: behind a dump bin. Yeah, and the exhilaration. It's the first time taking a company. What keeps
[16:33] SPEAKER_00: me up at night is I imagine myself. It's my staff calls them David Isms but one of them is
[16:40] SPEAKER_00: don't panic until I panic and when I panic run. But I imagine myself getting up every morning,
[16:47] SPEAKER_00: someone dousing me with gasoline and spending the rest of the day running away from a lit match.
[16:53] SPEAKER_00: As much as you can done during a day is kind of what I do so that's where I am on that.
[16:59] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you do take some breaks. So what's your favorite place, most favorite place in the world?
[17:04] SPEAKER_00: You've been all over the place. So for different reasons. I love London. Outside of Toronto,
[17:09] SPEAKER_00: I love London and I love New York. I'm for different reasons. London is such a great, great city.
[17:16] SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm an amazing city and New York is truly the city that never sleeps. And even after all
[17:25] SPEAKER_00: these years, I still stay in Times Square when I go to New York because I love the ability to watch
[17:30] SPEAKER_00: what people do because at the heart of what I do in the market. This last question is very much
[17:38] SPEAKER_01: it's a heartbreak to a hundred days before. There's a small tropical island in the middle of the ocean
[17:45] SPEAKER_01: with only yes a phone booth. Remember what that was? And no internet. We dropped you off there
[17:50] SPEAKER_01: with no technology. At any time you can use the phone on the island to call about to come pick you up.
[17:58] SPEAKER_01: How long do you last before making that phone call? And what would you do?
[18:02] SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, at heart, I am an introvert. My daughter who has a degree in a master's in medical
[18:09] SPEAKER_00: science and psychology does not believe it, but at heart, I am an introvert. So I probably could
[18:14] SPEAKER_00: last on the island quite a bit and just be at peace with myself. I'm okay with that. But you know,
[18:23] SPEAKER_00: I do relish time with certain people and I probably would miss, certainly miss my family very
[18:30] SPEAKER_00: much very quickly. But I probably just learn to relax a lot more than I do. And I need a little
[18:39] SPEAKER_00: I think as I move forward, I need a little more introspective time. But nobody wants to crawl
[18:45] SPEAKER_00: into my head because there's a lot of crazy stuff going on in there. So I just want to have time
[18:52] SPEAKER_01: to think. David, that's about it. Thank you for the interview. It's really, really, really fun.
[18:58] SPEAKER_01: You know, people looking at us or listening to us often want to follow up with not with me,
[19:04] SPEAKER_01: but with the people I'm interviewing. How can they get to you online?
[19:08] SPEAKER_00: You can get to me through LinkedIn. I'm the only David Lou catch on LinkedIn. That's probably
[19:13] SPEAKER_00: the best place to get me. And you can visit, you know, cabinsystemsna.com or liquidavitar.com and
[19:21] SPEAKER_00: find out how to get to me. That's probably the easiest way to get to me is through LinkedIn.
[19:25] SPEAKER_01: We can, David, thanks for coming on to Canada's podcast. Be great having me.
[19:29] SPEAKER_01: Thank you for your participation. Thanks everyone for taking the time today to listen to Toronto's
[19:34] SPEAKER_01: podcast on the Canada's podcast network. I hope you enjoyed the podcast today. Make sure you sign
[19:40] SPEAKER_01: up for a newsletters or write a review for us on iTunes. You can connect with us on Twitter,
[19:45] SPEAKER_01: Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn or at canvasspodcast.com where you can listen, discover and engage. You can
[19:53] SPEAKER_01: also check out what other entrepreneurs are doing across the country. I'll see you next time.
[19:59] SPEAKER_01: This podcast is sponsored by eBay Canada. eBay Canada is here to help. They've been supporting
[20:05] SPEAKER_01: Canadian small business retailers for 25 years and have recently launched their up-and-running program
[20:11] SPEAKER_01: to meet an urgent need to get business online today. New business sellers can get a free
[20:18] SPEAKER_01: free e-commerce store for 90 days when they visit eBay.ca slash up and running.
[20:24] SPEAKER_01: Access eBay's 170 plus million buyers around the world. With eBay Canada, you can stay local,
[20:33] SPEAKER_01: sell global and power up. That's eBay.ca slash up and running. Offer is open until August 22nd.